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Why Not More US Carriers In India?  
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

I've noticed that beside Delta and NW to BOM, there arent any more U.S. carriers having a presence there...yes I know that there is a bunch of codesharing, but thats not direct revenue.......all the majour U.S. carriers are vying for China, but India is just as big, if not a bigger market.....

For example, I live in SFO and have friends in San Jose/Silicone Valley..there are zillions of Indians/Pakistani's who live in the area, and a number of who have companies located here or in India......

With AA for example already flying to NRT from SJC, would it not be good to market SFO or SJC-NRT-BOM or DEL flights?

I say this because its a bit difficult to travel to India/Pakistan from the west coast.....

only a couple of air carriers do this from the west coast, CX and SQ
Air India flies from LAX, but thats via Europe

anway, I think US carriers would do well if they tried to fly to other majour indian (and Pakistani) cities..

Pan Am did use to fly to Karachi, and though there was a bad hijacking incedent there back in 1986, the Pakistani govt has done a remarkable job in security there,..I feel just as safe there as I do in any other airport....

good, respectable, and intelligent comments welcome...


"Up the Irons!"
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4385 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5977 times:

Rights issues aside, the technical and operational limitations for a nonstop USA-India flight stifle the likelihood of an economically lucrative service by a US carrier.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5955 times:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports.

India permits upto FOUR US carriers to operate flights to India, with fifth freedom rights upon designated routes.

At the peak of US services to India in 2001, Northwest flew a DC10 daily each to Delhi and Mumbai; Delta flew an MD11 daily to Mumbai and United flew B744s twice daily to Delhi as part of its round-the-world flight.

US carriers find it very hard to compete on India routes primarily because the routes are very vulnerable to sixth freedom carriers due to geography, as well as to Air India who has a significantly lower cost base than they do.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5949 times:

Well..if the U.S. govt decided to stop AI's service here, 1/2 of AI's revenue would go down the drain..lol!!

Obviously, there isn't any U.S. air carrier which can do a direct flight, but if some aircarrier, such as AA has a "continue" flight to BOM or DEL from NRT, where the passenger would not have to change aircrafts, I'm sure they would be able to get enough passengers to fly that route..i'm not saying everyday, but 2-4x/week..PIA flies from ORD to KHI via MAN..and since there is no change of planes, people are liking that particular flight, in fact, thats one of the selling points I read in the local Pakistani/Indian papers there.

if DAL now flies to BOM everyday JFK-FRA-BOM from previous 4x/week, there has to be some business there, not to mention, willingness of American/Indian/Pakistani descent people willing to fly to India on a U.S. carrier..I just think the revenue potential there is huge....and its just not BOM or DEL, there is Calcutta, New Dehli, Channai (all these cities have populations from 4 1/2 to 14 million people!!!)



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5942 times:

NWA has increased its flights out of AMS to India recently.


THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5937 times:

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Indian air market heavily regulated? I believe I've heard that it's very difficult for non-Indian carriers to get landing rights at Indian airports

The Indian market is regulated, yes. However, other American carriers do have the authority to fly to India (AA, for example) - they've just chosen not to. They don't have to fly non-stop to India though. They just aren't adventurous enough, I guess, to take advantage. AA might be the biggest airline in the world, but they don't fly anywhere between Switzerland and Hong Kong - missing out on a major chunk of the world's market.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

if DAL now flies to BOM everyday JFK-FRA-BOM from previous 4x/week, there has to be some business there

Delta flies to Mumbai TWICE DAILY this winter, once each via Frankfurt and Paris.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

The solution: at least one US carrier needs to buy the HGW A380 in the future Big grin

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5888 times:

It would be nice to see a more direct flight from the west coast to India. Right now the quickest routing is on Air Canada. A NRT-India service from either UA or NW would be nice, but unfortunately the Himalayas play a role. A nonstop NRT-DEL flight would have added flight time, which is lost money. There was a reason that UA routed its around the world flights through HKG instead of NRT where they have more of a presence. I am not sure if it was to do with freedom rights, or that HKG was more geographically optimal for the service.

A 747 flight with weight restrictions from ORD would be very convenient for passengers, but only a super long range plane can make it from the west coast. Only time will tell if a carrier can make the route profitable nonstop though. European carriers like LH have a huge share of the market. One stops from US carriers can't compete like LH due to the fact that LH has feed from many US and European destinations to fill all of its India flights. The few NW and DL flights are probably as much as we can get for US carriers to go to India through Europe. Maybe AA, but doubtfully UA due to the strong alliance with LH which is a European leader to India.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

It would be nice to see a more direct flight from the west coast to India. Right now the quickest routing is on Air Canada

No. The quickest routing is Air India's direct service from Los Angeles to Mumbai via Frankfurt.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5846 times:

A350:

You're on crack. Ain't happening as much as you might wish it to be so. I don't even think they want it, even if you think they need it because it might look pretty or whatever.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5821 times:


You're on crack. Ain't happening as much as you might wish it to be so. I don't even think they want it, even if you think they need it because it might look pretty or whatever.

It's not because it might look pretty, it's simply the future HGW A380 is the only way I see to establish a nonstop connection between the US and India at an competitive price.

Of course, you can also use the 772LR or the A345, but that's going to be expensive, and I'm sure you will be able to fill one A380 every day.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5748 times:

RoseFlyer....what's interesting is that PK flies from ISB-PEK-NRT (PK-852) and that is most probably via the K2 mountain range (according to the Great Circle Mapper) ...which is almost as treacherous as the Himalayan range.....so I'm not sure if mountains play a large role (i could be wrong though), and as
B747-437B stated, DAL flies to BOM 2x/daily (thats shocking for me to see)..so the market is there....

as some of the posts state here, AA and UA already have rights to fly to India, so it would not be a big thing for them to start adding flights there, they can definitely cater to the Indian/Pakistani customer....the air carriers need to be a little bit more creative and see how untapped the Indian (and Pakistan) market is..

as an example, earlier this year, I flew SFO-JFK-DXB-KHI...to me, that was a pain in the bum, and I would have chosen AA all the way, but I had to fly on EK (JFK-DXB-KHI) also..next time, I plan on flying SFO-NRT via AA, then NRT-KHI via PK.....i'm sure i'm just one example of a zillion who have this problem from the Left Coast.

I think they would even do ok if they flew even to Middle East Countries....there are a lot of U.S. citizens (not of middle eastern descent) who live/travel/work to/in the middle east countries.....




"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5747 times:

Why does everyone assume that a nonstop from the US is the only way to go?

Northwest make a cool buck through their hub in AMS flying ancient DC-10s that are almost always packed to the rafters.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 5726 times:

Jaysit..my point exactly, I wasn't even saying to travel non-stop....nonpstop to India would be a good selling point, but with flights from the left coast to India via NRT, etc. and with a HUGE indian/pakistani (desi) here, I think there is a lot of potential....




"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

I am hardly suprised that AA has rights that they choose not to execute with regards to travel to India.

They may be the world's largest airline, but they hardly have a international reach in Asia, the pacific islands or deep into Europe like UA or NW does.
Plus they don't have the aircraft to do it either.

They are content flying MD-80's from DFW, ripping off DFW people with high fares and the Wright amendment, and are as customer friendly as a hungry polar bear.

AA touching down in Mumbai will happen when it snows in Mumbai.




Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5638 times:

It's not because it might look pretty, it's simply the future HGW A380 is the only way I see to establish a nonstop connection between the US and India at an competitive price.

Then you are on crack  Big grin

Of course, you can also use the 772LR or the A345, but that's going to be expensive, and I'm sure you will be able to fill one A380 every day.

There is zero demand for the A380 in North America.... AA, CO, DL, UA... all opperate the 772ER and would be able to integrate the 772LR much more efficently. And what about the 7E7? It will be capable of serving India-North American non-stops.

The capacity argument is void. American flyers prefer flying with more options than through a single hub. Why fly just LAX-DEL with the A380 when you could opperate DEN/LAX/ORD/ATL/IAH-DEL with the 7E7.


---

Edit... and just checked.. but the 772ER can already do ORD-DEL

[Edited 2004-12-03 01:15:49]

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9638 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

Sorry, you are right about Air India. Although the Air Canada flight through Toronto might have a short flight time, Air India beats them by 35 minutes in total travel time.

The bad thing about traveling through Asia is that none of the west coast flights connect well with the flights from Japan to India. Connections through Europe are a lot easier. A nonstop would be incredibly convenient from the US. Transitting through Europe or Asia is miserable. Two 6-12 hour flights is a lot nicer then domestic and a longhaul international flight.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2226 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5596 times:
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To put it simply.

How many international carriers does India have to send to U.S.?
How many international carriers does the U.S. have to send to India?

Do you see the problem?

This is aside the physical facts of increased distances and the presences of overseas hubs to jump from.

[Edited 2004-12-03 01:35:02]


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5562 times:


........Because working the flights to and from India is HELL!!!!!




I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

There really isn't any good way to get to India/Pakistan from the Left coast, its as simple as that.....going westbound would yield approximately 9609 mi (from Great Circle Mapper) that would be SJC-NRT-PEK-ISB-KHI (with one plane change) and going eastbound would be 9527 mi, and that would be SFO-LHR-DXB-KHI (with two plane changes) or SFO-ORD-MAN-KHI would be 9694 mi with one plane change..hence, really no difference....

that being said, the 777-200LR would be easily be able to go to LAX-BOM nonstop (according to Boeing's specs)

the 777-200ER (which U.S. air carriers have anway) can go nonstop
JFK-BOM , JFK-DEL, JFK-KHI...ect.(once again, according to Boeing's specs).....


http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/777technical.html



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

........Because working the flights to and from India is HELL!!!!!

Why?

You have 300 relatively sleepy passengers who are exhausted after 3 hours of long lines at 2 am, most of whom are teetotallers, and just happy to get a vegetarian meal inflight.

If Singapore Airlines and Air India and BA can provide good service at 2 am to 300 tired and grateful passengers, I don't see why American FAs are a special breed apart.

Or maybe I do. Its the reason why I avoid American carriers on international routes like the plague.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Maybe they can get some oriental and desi FA's for the flight........i don't know if it would be an improvement, oh wait...over the normal American air carrier FA's, yes it would..... Laugh out loud


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

NRT-India service from either UA or NW would be nice, but unfortunately the Himalayas play a role...

Why? JL manage to do NRT-DEL just fine.


DAL flies to BOM 2x/daily (thats shocking for me to see)..so the market is there....

And NW fly 2 x daily MSP-AMS-BOM as well. Add to that AI's approximately 4 x daily India-USA flights.


Maybe they can get some oriental and desi FA's for the flight........i don't know if it would be an improvement, oh wait...over the normal American air carrier FA's, yes it would.....

That's exactly what DL do. They've got a full complement of Indian crew for the CDG-BOM-CDG (and I assume the FRA-BOM-FRA) legs.


25 JoFMO : I don't see any reason why UA doesn't fly with one their 744 nonstop to DEL. AC can do it from YYZ at most conditions. So UA should be able to do it f
26 Burnsie28 : I dont think AA can fly NRT-BOM or DEL because I dont think they have the rights, and they dont have any rights anywhere else, so wouldnt they have to
27 United Airline : UA announced ORD-DEL nonstop before 9.11 but the plan was put on hold indefinitely since 9.11. Wonder if they will start this route in the future.....
28 MrNiji : On of the reasons is that many US carriers need to sort out their finances first. The over-competition, through relatively unregulated liberalism, has
29 Namaskar : Jacobin777, There are several options from the West Coast to India with relatively short layovers on CX, CI, OZ and KE. I know many forum members are
30 Jacobin777 : Jasepl...its interesting they do that....but thats the smart thing to do, actually, if its a continuing flight from the US, then the whole flight shou
31 LH477 : Air Canada flies 343 or 345.....AC no longer has the 744 in thier fleet
32 Jacobin777 : interesting that UA wants to start this route to India.... http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1858497/ http://timesofindi
33 Gigneil : The solution: at least one US carrier needs to buy the HGW A380 in the future Big grin The what? Edit... and just checked.. but the 772ER can already
34 Jacobin777 : I think the 777-200LR will be able to do it profitably, and I wouldn't be surprised if PK does ORD-KHI nonstop (they do have a couple of the 200LR's o
35 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : and just checked.. but the 772ER can already do ORD-DEL the 777-200ER (which U.S. air carriers have anway) can go nonstop JFK-BOM , JFK-DEL, JFK-KHI..
36 Jacobin777 : but as I said, the -200LR would be able to do it!
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