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CAA Finally Announces UK-India Allocations  
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Following the hearing held on 11 and 12 November to decide how to allocate the 21 frequencies newly available for UK airlines to serve various points in India, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has announced that it considers its statutory duties in this case are best served by awarding:

  • seven services to British Airways, four of which are to be operated on the Chennai (Madras) route and three to Bangalore;

  • four services to British Midland Airways to be operated on the Mumbai (Bombay) route; and

  • ten services to Virgin Atlantic, seven of which are to be used on the Delhi route and three on Mumbai.


  • The frequencies, which become available in three tranches from Winter 2004, were secured under the latest bilateral air services agreement between the Governments of the UK and India, signed in September. British Airways currently operate all 19 services per week available to UK airlines under the terms of the previous agreement between the two countries. Following this decision, the distribution of rights will be:

    BA - Current 19, New 7, Total 26
    BD - Current 0 New, 4 Total 4
    VS - Current 0, New 10, Total 10

    The CAA has decided to award the rights in this order:

    Winter 2004:
    Seven rights to operate to Delhi awarded to Virgin.

    Summer 2005:
    Four rights to operate to Mumbai awarded to BM
    Three rights to operate to Mumbai awarded to Virgin

    Winter 2005:
    Four rights to operate to Chennai awarded to BA
    Three rights to operate to Bangalore awarded to BA

    http://www.caa.co.uk

    [Edited 2004-12-03 11:23:05]

    94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
     
    User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5430 times:

    I've read the report and it seems a pretty fair decision. I think each carrier probably got what they wanted.

    User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
    Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

    Agree... This is what the final picture will look like:

    BA: 7x Bombay, 7x Madras, 7x Delhi, 2(+1)x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore
    VS: 3x Bombay, 7x Delhi
    BD: 4x Bombay

    I was just wondering though, why do they decide which carrier can fly where? Couldn't they just allocate the frequencies and let the airlines decide where they wanted to fly?


    User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5393 times:

    Funny BA is the latest of all players to receive the right.. moreover, it looks loke BOM will be very heavily competed by BA, BD, VS and AI... - AI should serve smaller cities like BLR, COK, HYD etc..

    User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
    Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5390 times:

    The decision seems to be a blow to VS, which has already announced daily operations to BOM. Schedules have been loaded in the CRS and tickets are being sold as we speak. I can't imagine they're going to be happyu with this outcome.



    User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5386 times:

    I bet BMI will be overjoyed with that - NOT! Four flights to India, move an A330 to LHR and what does it do for the other three days?

    Andy


    User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5386 times:

    Pretty much what the report said was the VS LHR-DEL would be direct competition with BA. They have left it to VS & BM to work out which days each will fly to BOM.

    I guess they figure DEL & BOM are very well served with this allocation and I liked the fact they agreed on BA's proposal for Bangalore with 3x 744.

    Sure beats having to connect thru FRA!


    User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
    Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5374 times:

    BA: 7x Bombay, 7x Madras, 7x Delhi, 2(+1)x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore

    BA currently has twice weekly operations into MAA, so after the increase they will be flying there six times weekly rather than daily. Note that the above list shows 27 weekly frequencies, while BA will only be flying 26 flights.



    User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

    Are the BMI slots for flights from LHR or MAN?


    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
    User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5318 times:

    BMI slots are for LHR. Reuters is reporting that VS is going to appeal the decision to only grant them 3x weekly LHR-BOM and none to BLR. Let the fun begin!

    User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

    Dont think BMI will shift an A330 from MAN just for 4 weekly flights to BOM then


    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
    User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2498 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5298 times:

    Virgin is always not happy about anything and appealing all the time. They should be satisfied with what they had. BMI had only 4 slots.


    Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
    User currently offlineMrNiji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5296 times:

    Let the fun begin!

    That will indeed be a great time of amusement  Big thumbs up


    User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

    How many A330's does BMI have? I guess no chance of them getting a T7 somewhere, huh? (Maybe one of their alliance partners,perhaps)!

    User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7117 posts, RR: 57
    Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

    Latest news

    Virgin is to appeal their three weekly to BOM... Typical.

    BMI to seek additional aircraft - now let me see who they may code share with....ummm Virgin...





    The world is really getting smaller these days
    User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4502 posts, RR: 72
    Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5266 times:

    Reuters is reporting that VS is going to appeal the decision to only grant them 3x weekly LHR-BOM and none to BLR. Let the fun begin!

    As I stated before, flights to BOM have been announced, loaded and are being sold as we speak, so this appeal comes as no surprise.



    User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7117 posts, RR: 57
    Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

    It also sounds like the CAA are basically saying to BD and VS... merge for gods sake, just get on with it!


    The world is really getting smaller these days
    User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7117 posts, RR: 57
    Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

    BD could do BOM x 4 weekly and Maldives x 3 weekly


    The world is really getting smaller these days
    User currently offlineXpat From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 634 posts, RR: 0
    Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5236 times:

    Does this mean fares to India will finally become cheaper?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


    The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
    User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5227 times:

    A question about schedules:

    BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130

    VS proposes LHR-BOM Dep 2100 Arr 1035 #1
    BOM-LHR Dep 1445 Arr 2200

    Does BMI currently have available A330's to meet the above schedule or will they have to acquire more? Or, will they shut down some of their transatlantic from MAN to free up equipment?


    User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24925 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

    Actually think they've already said somewhere that more a/c will be acquired for LHR flights. Cant remember where I read that though


    When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
    User currently offlineAirindia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1639 posts, RR: 1
    Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5182 times:

    this is good news that some action has happened and in relatively quick time. strange that BD only got BOM. They would have been happy with a couple to BLR. I guess even their India office is in Bangalore.?

    Guru


    User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
    Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

    It would be nice to see BD & Virgin taxing at Mumbai.Looking forward to that.
    Anyone has the Planned schedule,when available.
    regds
    MEL



    Think of the brighter side!
    User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
    Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

    All in all, I think it was a fair result: something for everyone. If Virgin doesn't like the decision, BUY BMI !

    I was a little surprised that BA got BLR; I would have expected this route to be better suited to an A330 than a 777 (which I'm assuming BA would use); still good to see a new Indian city get a link to LHR.

    Personally, I prefer the Virgin schedules - getting into BOM/DEL at c.10am, rather than the middle of the night or 4am, as suggested by others. I mean - Mumbai at 4am, that's got to be a pain!


    User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

    That proposed BMI schedule is terrible! Either arriving in the early hours of the morning, probably paying for an extra "night" in a hotel, then leaving your hotel after a full day (thus another extra "night") to check-in after midnight! Horrible.

    But generally good news about the slots - some competition at last!

    Geoff M.


    25 Crosswind : bmi's proposed schedule may have more to do with aircraft availability than passenger convenience... Sill to be revealed is what other route will the
    26 Jaysit : Guaranteed to make no one happy, and everyone pissed. Maybe BMI and Virgin will collaborate on their services to Mumbai. Its clear that the VS service
    27 Roblondon70 : It was specifically stated in the India-UK agreement that the additional flights were to operate ouside the current peaks. BOM gets particularly overb
    28 Skymonster : CROSSWIND said: bmi's proposed schedule may have more to do with aircraft availability than passenger convenience Actually I think not... Firstly, thi
    29 Jasepl : BA currently has twice weekly operations into MAA, so after the increase they will be flying there six times weekly rather than daily. Note that the a
    30 Roblondon70 : It was part of the agreement that 7 had to be to DEL and 7 to BOM I heard. This bilateral remains quite restrictive. Why do the UK always negotiate po
    31 CrossChecked : The flights to BOM are going to be like a slap in the face with a wet fish to the BMI crews operating them. I would imagine that BMI will use MAN base
    32 B747-437B : It should read: BA: 7x Bombay, 6x Madras, 7x Delhi, 3x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore VS: 3x Bombay, 7x Delhi BD: 4x Bombay No. It should read : BA : 7x MUMBA
    33 Jasepl : Sigh.... Let it go Sean.
    34 Jaysit : BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1 BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130 That's possibly one of the worst schedules! No worse than Air India's schedules. I
    35 Gamps : All nice places to fly to. Wait til they get aboard a flight to India. It's going to be a whole new ball game for them and they won't know what's hit
    36 Post contains images GKirk : Wheras the people who hate flying via LHR (E.G People in the UK outside of London) continue to fly KLM via AMS
    37 Airish : When I attended the hearing it seemed that what ever the result it was going to appeal from the way people were talking. It is good to hear that Briti
    38 Arsenal@LHR : Somewhat predictable results, BA got the lions share, VS didn't get what they wanted, and BD with 4 slots to Bombay? I suppose being in their situatio
    39 AIR MALTA : Arsenal@LHR BA got the lions share I dob't think that BA got the linos share. It is losing ground to the likes of AF and LH and that's thanks to the B
    40 Stealthpilot : good news i guess, i would have hoped for some VS flights into BLR. heheheh cant wait for that to happen.... o well in time!!!
    41 Jaysit : It is losing ground to the likes of AF and LH and that's thanks to the British not making enough to get some nice deals and the too much competition i
    42 Stargoldlhr : BMI will probably codeshare with VS and allow VS a/c to operate the route. VS codeshares on BMI's Manchester routes. As a StarGold with UA and Silver
    43 Arsenal@LHR : 7x Bombay, 6x Madras, 7x Delhi, 3x Calcutta, 3x Bangalore 26 slots compared to VS's 10 and BD's 4 sounds like a hefty chunk of the shares to me, BA be
    44 Behramjee : I feel sorry for Virgin Atlantic with regards to their BOM flight allocations. They deserved daily frequencies. It would have been better if BA got 5
    45 Stargoldlhr : Wasnt there a story on A.net a long time ago suggesting BMI were looking into routes to India and South Africa using an Airbus Business Jet (A318) as
    46 Post contains links Behramjee : No as far as I recall there wasnt any such thread concerning BMI using J class A 319LRs to SA or India. The thread that was on BMI concerned them bein
    47 Sshank : Not a bad outcome. MAA goes near daily, 4 way competition on the LHR-BOM traffic, and *A finally gets in on the action on the UK-India sector. One hop
    48 B747-437B : It would have been better if... VS getting BOM 5 weekly at least. The terms of the agreement required that no more than 7 weekly frequencies be awarde
    49 Airindia : Delhi airport is not certified to handle the A340-600 at this time Sean, To have an airport certified to handle an a/c is whose responsibility. Is it
    50 Scotron11 : Hey Folks....what are the additional frequencies that are still to be negotiated over the next 12 months? They say additional cities but don't mention
    51 Foxiboy : Can anybody tell me why VS always cry like a baby when they get what they want , so BA got more,but VS got what they applied for, do you here BD cryin
    52 B747-437B : To have an airport certified to handle an a/c is whose responsibility. Is it the AAI which needs to carry out the necessary modofications. And if yes,
    53 B747-437B : what are the additional frequencies that are still to be negotiated over the next 12 months? There are no additional frequencies to be allocated. All
    54 Whitehatter : BD's four slots actually look like they will fit into current fleet availability quite nicely. MAN-ORD 7xweekly MAN-IAD 6xweekly MAN-LAS 2/3xweekly (e
    55 HB-IWC : Seeing how everyone here seems to be concerned with the timings of the proposed Virgin and BMI services, I seem to remember that the updated bilateral
    56 B747-437B : O/D-traffic was to be prioritized over the 6th freedom India-UK-North America traffic Indeed, and the CAA made a specific note of this fact when they
    57 JoFMO : I think in general the FAA descision is fair. But on the other hand BMI should at least be given 6 frequencies. I think the FAA should have taken into
    58 Lutfi : On Mumbai vs Bombay, Chennai vs Madras etc. Notice no-one gets too upset when Munchen is called Munich, or London Londres, or Osaka Dai Bang... (Canto
    59 Post contains images B747-437B : Different languages have different words/ spellings for the same places - it is no insult or belittlement. It is a longstanding personal battle betwee
    60 Jasepl : The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that BD have dot the worst deal of the three. Though I really don't care about it much from the ai
    61 Madhatter : I dont think that VS should have been awarded the Bangalore route as they are still expanding/looking at expanding into primary worldwide cities such
    62 Post contains images ACAfan : 1. I want nonstop HYD! 2. There is no reason why BD should fly its BOM service from LHR. It really should operate its BOM service from MAN. This way,
    63 Jaysit : Au contraire, mon ami! It's precisely because I live here (and because I paid for changing the highway signs, the stationery, the airport signage etc)
    64 B747-437B : BD or VS could have been awarded these 2 spare frequencies in order to operate Mumbai more frequently No. As I mentioned in reply 48, the terms of th
    65 Jasepl : I dont think that VS should have been awarded the Bangalore route as they are still expanding/looking at expanding into primary worldwide cities such
    66 B747-437B : What was the sense in splitting it up? I quote from page 18, points 97 and 99 of the CAA ruling. "The alternative of splitting the rights between BM a
    67 Jasepl : remaining 7 frequencies be divided among no less than two of the remaining eligible routes namely Chennai, Hyderabad, Bangalore, Kolkata and Kochi. So
    68 Jaysit : But given that Mumbai is India's commercial and financial capital, a 3x weekly service by any airline does not appear to be viable to capture the prof
    69 Jasepl : Especially, if one can fly daily on BA or AI. Unless, BA are full in J and F, and someone has a distinct aversion to fly AI. Then they'll happily go t
    70 Jaysit : Then they'll happily go to AF, LH, LX, KL/NW, soon OS. Hell, they'll even go AZ! Yes, but whats the point of having a new bilateral, if you're creatin
    71 Jasepl : Yes, but whats the point of having a new bilateral, if you're creating an environment in which premium passengers are being forced to opt for a third
    72 FlyLondon : There is no reason why BD should fly its BOM service from LHR. It really should operate its BOM service from MAN There are 12 million reasons why they
    73 Jasepl : Yes, but LON's 12m reasons already have an option of 5 or 6 daily non-stops to India. MAN's 2.5m have a big fat zero. It's at least something worth co
    74 Post contains images Behramjee : Jasepl, I totally agree with u with regards to the MAN-INDIA nonstops + BMI MAN-IAD/ORD connections but u have to understand that LHR-BOM is a more hi
    75 Behramjee : By the way, I have a question : 1. Compared to BA and AI, how much of a market share from BOM, DEL and rest of India (respectively) do EK-QR-GF have o
    76 Jasepl : ....but u have to understand that LHR-BOM is a more higher yielding and profitable route to fly than MAN-BOM is even if u would have a monopoly on the
    77 Sshank : Ha! Just goes to show that Bangalore's a me-too city if ever there was one! Talk about hype! Yes - Bangalore is a case of hype running well ahead of r
    78 Karan69 : Has Hyd been totally left out of this whole thing
    79 Jasepl : Karan, HYD, CCU and COK were also up for grabs. But no one was interested enough to even bother applying!
    80 MrNiji : Karan, HYD, CCU and COK were also up for grabs. But no one was interested enough to even bother applying! How dumb... HYD and COK have a great potenti
    81 Himmat01 : I'm surprised that the Shiv Sena didn't call the city ShivajiNagri I am surprised they did not insist on renaming Air India as Shiv Chatrapati Antarra
    82 Oliver18 : Does anybody think by VS appealing it will really make a difference? How likely is it that Secretary of State for Transport is going to turn to BMI an
    83 AlanUK : GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR BA has been serving the Indian market since its very early days. It has been investing time and money to grow the market, includ
    84 JoFMO : @AlanUK: BA not only invested time and money in the Indian market, they also earned a huge amount of money due to monopoly pricing.
    85 B747-437B : Further to this, Virgin Atlantic will now commence Mumbai service on March 27 with 3x weekly Airbus 340-300s operating on We/Fr/Su.
    86 Jasepl : BMI proposes LHR-BOM Dep 1445 Arr 0350 #1 BOM-LHR Dep 0600 Arr 1130 BD seem to have announced the Bombay schedules. Very similar to BA's: BD 781 LHR-B
    87 Behramjee : Jaspel...BMI only have A 332s and not A 333s!!! So I would expect A 332s to be used on the route similar to the ones they use from MAN to ORD-LAS-IAD.
    88 B747-437B : They plan to use a 333. Their slot filings actually indicate an Airbus 330-200 in C24U48Y172 configuration. Service will commence 28 March, 2005 pendi
    89 Post contains images Jasepl : BMI only have A 332s and not A 333s!!! Sorry! Slip of the finger! It's Sunday afternoon and I've had a few...
    90 HAWK21M : What Long rangers do Viirgin & BMI have in their Inventory. regds MEL
    91 Behramjee : BMI have only the A 330-200 as their long haul aircraft where as Virgin Atlantic have the B 744 + A 346 + A 343!!!
    92 Sshank : BD seem to have announced the Bombay schedules. Very similar to BA's: BD 781 LHR-BOM d 09h15 a 22h40 M-W-FS- BD 782 BOM-LHR d 00h35 a 05h50 -T-H-SN G
    93 Gigneil : There's always been a good selection of routes for *A fliers from North America. LH's service from Frankfurt is quite comprehensive. N
    94 Jasepl : Posted in wrong topic![Edited 2004-12-20 17:29:29]
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