Ei2ksea From Ireland, joined Jul 2004, 407 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1550 times:
Im just throwing this question out to all you airliners.net posters. Looking at the Ryanair model of absolutely cutting all costs to an absolute minimum to the extent of removing seat recline, window shutters and seat assignement to the use of 'way out of town' airports and so on, how would Ryanair do in the USA. I know many will blast me straightaway and cry 'look at Southwest', but Ryanair seems to have gone one further than WN from the point of view of cost base and innovative ways of cutting costs and filling planes.
How about an area like Chicago, maybe Chicago (Gary) as a hub with flights to destinations like Boston (Portland), Detroit (City), Seattle (Olympia), Tampa(St.Petersburg), Philadelphia (Trenton), Denver (Colorado Springs) or New York (Teterboro) . What do ye think guys, could it work or would it be destined to follow the steps of Vanguard, WestPac, AirSouth etc etc.? Just wondering!
Regards
Ph
Next Flight: BOS-YUL-BOS, BOS-PIT-BOS, BOS-DEN-BOS (AC,AC,B6,US, UA,UA)
7LBAC111 From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Jul 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 46 Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1462 times:
I reckon if FR where to advertise their destinations in the same way they do in Europe, litigation would see them shut down pretty damn quickly. I don't think the US market is as receptive to secondary airports as Europeans are. I know a lot of places they (WN) serve are considered secondary, but they still remain significantly better facilitated than FR's European equivalents.
Pearson??
7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
Geoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1456 times:
With the whinging Americans on board?!?! (sorry, couldn't resist that stereotype!).
One major factor in the US is the distances involved. Having no recline for a max 2 hour flight in Europe is not the same as a Chicago - Seattle run, for example (4 hours?).
Cessna172RG From United States, joined Aug 2000, 632 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
"Seattle (Olympia)"
Ummm...who would fly there? There's like no demand for even a commuter flight out of Seattle for such a route because it would take you longer to get to the plane through the TSA mess than by car, and by car, a little over an hour. Who wants to fly to Olympia? Let's face it...for people who want to commute between Seattle and Olympia, the car is the method of choice between the two cities, followed by bus for those who really gotta go there. If there was an airplane that served Olympia, you'd have only two seats in that plane filled, the pilot and the copilot seats!!!
Cessna172RG From United States, joined Aug 2000, 632 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1392 times:
Ok, I reread it. And I still don't understand why anyone would want to serve Olympia! Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If an airline, like Ryanair, or similar were to open up service between Seattle and Olympia with a base fare of 5 dollars one way, then yeah, it would be the thing to do for sure. But, let's look at a few issues here.
First, TSA in Seattle is horrid. No matter which airline you are flying, you'll be subject to some mongering Polynesian immigrant larger than your Aunt Bertha with an I.Q. equivalent of a double A battery deciding who gets the "suprise inspection search" of the minute, and even if that, you're bound to find yourself in lines for hours at peak times. Been there, done that. In the mean time, I could have just taken a bus from downtown Seattle, or the Greyhound, and I could have BEEN in Olympia by the time I got inline for security and completed the dehuminization process that the TSA so lovingly enforces.
If time is of the essence, people will drive to Olympia. If it is a matter of personal choice, they'll drive to Olympia. If they don't have a car, they'll drive to Olympia. If they are insane about getting their free domestic roundtrip ticket after buying 8 roundtrip tickets, they might fly there, and if first class is offered and if you live on Mercer Island and drive a Mercedes E class or larger, then you'll fly there, but for the average Joe with a car, we will DRIVE there. Been there, done that.
At times when I was in college, I wished that I could fly from Yakima or Wenatchee for a good price, but even Horizon's one way and roundtrip airfare was nuts and I would have rather (and did) bear the brunt of crossing Snoqualmie pass than pay a horridly high price to fly myself home for a weekend. At that time I was not IFR rated, but if I had the IFR rating at the time, and if my college's flight school was a little more less-stupid, I could have flown myself home and back for half the cost of a ticket on Horizon. Sorry, but the automobile wins on this one.
Now if you can show me an airline that can fly me home for Christmas from Japan for less than 800 USD, then we'll talk. In the mean time, if JR or Nishitetsu (fellow Japanites might know what I am talking about) had a bus or a train from here to Seattle, I would be on it tomorrow morning, rain or shine.
7LBAC111 From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Jul 2004, 2556 posts, RR: 46 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1377 times:
Oh Cessna....
The suggestion was to fly from other cities within the US to Seattle Olympia instead of Tacoma (ala FR's European strategy of not serving major airports), not to fly from SEA to Olympia.
7LBAC111
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1366 times:
You miss the point. Ryanair's entire stratergy is flying into obscure secondary airports, often considerable distances from the towns they purport to serve. Typically, the only way out of these is a ryanair organised Bus service, etc.
When some says Seattle (Olympia), they don't mean a service between the two, but rather flying into Olympia, when you expect to arrive at Seattle.
To be fair to Ryanair, they've matured to the point they fly to some excellent non-city holiday destinations.
It's just the deceptive marketing of some of the others that fills many with contempt for the carrier.
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 1761 posts, RR: 24 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1278 times:
There are several smaller scheduled charter carriers in the US doing similar things as Ryanair airport wise although they don't make as much noise. Hooters Air and Transmeridian for example are using Rockford and Gary for Chicago, Sanford for Orlando etc. They both seem to be doing quite well.
I have often asked myself the same question though. I guess the difference is that Ryanair was an existing and established airline when they started expanding to bases outside of Ireland (Stansted, Prestwick etc.). A US carrier would have to start from scratch, also longer distances are surely an issue.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
Ltbewr From United States, joined Jan 2004, 8503 posts, RR: 16 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1239 times:
First of all, we already have them in the USA - we call them Southwest and AirTran.... By the way, no scheduled services can use Teterboro airport. WN serves into Islip, Long Island airport, which is about 40 miles from Manhattan, NYC. There have been attempts to serve (including by the recently demised Southeast Airlines) Stewart Airport about 70 miles north of NYC, which would be similar to some of the airports used by Ryanair. I would also suggest that some of the extremes at cost cutting and the use of strange airports that Ryanair does wouldn't go over well here. It was tried by PeoplExpress and look what happened to them.
Diesel1 From United Kingdom (Wales), joined Mar 2001, 1524 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1217 times:
Zonky
Your assertion that 'Ryanair's entire stratergy is flying into obscure secondary airports' is an exageration.
Dublin
London Gatwick
London Stansted
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Riga
Malaga
Faro
Porto
Turin
Pisa
Brno
None of these could be considered as obscure secondary airports.
All serve major cities.
There are plenty of further examples.
It is true that there are some flights to lesser known destinations, and that some flights to well known cities do use secondary airports.
A350 From Georgia, joined Nov 2004, 1047 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1173 times:
I think you cannot compare FR and WN since Europe is much smaller than the US and FR is doing mainly shorthaul flight on routes there rail/road connections are very bad. If you have one hour of flight, you might not care about service but only about getting there and the price. On an American transcon flight you will wish much more convenience.
Remember, it's no coincidence that FR and U2 have their largest hubs at London there people are behind obstacles called channel and left hand driving.
A350
Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
Bjg231 From United States, joined May 2004, 163 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1148 times:
Could Ryanair flourish in the US?
Absolutely, just not with their current model. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would willingly ride 4 hours or more in a Ryanair plane unless they were basically giving their seats away.
Since we already have such a successful LCC base here, they'd be entering a market flooded with competition. You'd see carriers like WN, which offer a higher level of service (normal pitch, recline, and yes - peanuts) matching their fares (if not beating them) on every route of value.
And while many shrug at Southwest's practice of flying into secondary airports (Midway, Fort. Lauderdale, Houston Hobby, etc.), I can't imagine anyone wanting to fly into tertiary cities unless that was their original destination.
Yes Diesel1,
Ryanair does fly to some major airports, but for the most part you'll end up trekking to your real destination city from whatever field you landed in.
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 15156 posts, RR: 53 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1159 times:
I have said it before but I will say it again: Ryanair serves more main airports than it does second airports; It is important to remember that ‘main’ does not necessarily mean ‘major’ or ‘busy’; indeed, it could just be a very sleepy airport which serves the nearest city and that area. Furthermore, most people here seem to assume that people flying into an airport which they are not accustomed to, like Pescara or Zaragoza, will automatically head for the nearest big city, when in fact the vast majority will probably stay either within the nearest town or city or explore the region, thus the destination served would be of great convenience.
Main airports (I have included airports which are busy, like STN, as a ‘main’ airport):
Dublin
Derry
Knock
Shannon
Kerry
Cork
Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Newcastle
Teesside
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
Liverpool
Blackpool
East Midlands (would this be deemed a ‘secondary’ airport? I’m not sure)
Birmingham
Cardiff
Luton
Stansted
Gatwick
Bristol
Bournemouth (would this be deemed a ‘secondary’ airport? I’m not sure)
Newquay
Dinard
La Rochelle/Roch.
Poitiers
Tours
Limoges
Bergerac
Rodez
Nimes
Montpellier
Perpignan
Carcassonne (would this be deemed a ‘secondary’ airport? I’m not sure)
Pau
Biarritz
Santander
Valladolid
Zaragoza
Valencia
Murcia
Almeria
Granada
Malaga
Jerez
Sevilla
Porto
Faro
Alghero
Turin
Genoa
Pisa
Trieste
Ancona
Pescara
Bari
Brindisi
Palermo
Klagenfurt
Graz
Linz
Salzburg
Brno
Wroclaw
Erfurt
Friedrichshafen
Eindhoven
Esbjerg
Aarhus
Tampere
Haugesund
Riga
Secondary airports:
Prestwick
St. Etienne
Beauvais
Salou
Girona
Bergamo/OAS
Brescia
Forli
Treviso
Ciampino
Altenburg
Schonfield
Karlsruhe/Baden (would this be deemed a ‘secondary’ airport?)
Hahn
Weeze
Lubeck
Charleroi
Strup
Gothenburg City
Torp
Vasteras
Skavasta
So there are 72 MAIN airports and 22 SECONDARY airports. Quite a difference. What’s more, all of the ‘secondary’ airports might actually be more convenien for some people, for if someone lived in, say, Vasteras, then it’d be far easier to fly to London than to go to Arlanda, or if someone lived near Lubeck, it’d be easier than going to Hamburg. So it’s best not to automatically assume that such airports are negative.
------
For the most part you'll end up trekking to your real destination city from whatever field you landed in.
Nonsense. The normal price of the coach is 4-6 EUR for a one-way journey (in Scandinavia it's more expensive). Accordingly, it would be very easy for me to pay, say, 25 GBP to CIA from STN, pay 10-12 EUR for the RETURN journey, and thus the total cost of STN-central Rome would be under 35 GBP.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 15156 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1065 times:
It is not necessarily a question of that. It is a question of negociating with an airport over the charges. If, say, you were the manager of an airport which has no airline operations but rather just a few private movements and you were approached by an airline, would you be willing to negociate over the charges (i.e. perhaps offer a lower rate for a certain period) or keep to your current charges which would probably result in the airline going elsewhere? It seems nonsensical to me and simply a matter of supply and demand.
Burnsie28 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1039 times:
Denver (Colorado Springs)
Colorado Springs is not an out of the way airport, its 60 miles from Denver, 70 from Downtown, and out of the way for Denver would be Loveland/Ft. Collins, which Alligient now does instead of Denver.
Colorado Springs has its own market and served by:
Allegiant
Continental/Continental Express
American/American Connection
Delta/Delta Connection
Northwest (All Mainline)
United/United Express
America West/America West Express
Mesa Airlines
Bubbinski From United States, joined Jan 2004, 159 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1009 times:
I could see Ryanair advertising service to Salt Lake City but flying into, say, Wendover, Nevada (90 minutes west of S.L. on I-80 - there's the old air base a stone's throw from the casinos) or Provo (40 miles south on I-15). Whether I'd prefer to fly on it is another matter. (Though I wouldn't mind spending a few quarters in the Wendover casinos myself, the drive would just be too long. SLC airport is a lot more convenient than Wendover. As for Provo I'd prefer that since I work and live closer to that airport than to SLC.). What is Ryanair's seat pitch?? I like Southwest just fine, myself....33 inch pitch, peanuts and Diet Coke free of charge, good on time record, Rapid Rewards. RR is the hook that keeps me flying WN....I've gotten 2 free transcontinental trips out of the deal.
Scutfarcus From United States, joined May 2000, 234 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 997 times:
Actually, my fantasy (and perhaps nightmare for full service airlines) would be to see RyanAir pick up a efw 767s and start flying Stansted to the US with the same basic strategy -
SJC, MKE, PVD, BWI, MCO, tons of places in Fla..... heaps of internationally underserved cities, some of which might be considered secondary airports could work out, if the price was right, and transfer to the rest of Europe via STN was laid out well.
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 2852 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 967 times:
"Actually, my fantasy (and perhaps nightmare for full service airlines) would be to see RyanAir pick up a efw 767s and start flying Stansted to the US with the same basic strategy"
Why would FR want to do that? Trans-Atlantic fares are already at rock-bottom levels.
What's the difference between Michael Jackson and Airbus planes? Michael gets lighter, Airbus planes don't.
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