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777 -> 7E7: Shall We Thank The Computer?  
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2305 times:

Has anyone noticed the sheer speed of the 7E7 program? The darn thing spawned out of SC circa 2001 and Boeing was given the authority to sell them last year and it is supposed to fly in 2008. That is less than 10 years total time conceptual to flight. The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!

Granted the shape isn't all that different, Airbus is having a hell of a time by comparison. A3XX started in the mid-90's, then program was launch in 1999 and the first flight will be in a few months -- again less than about 10 years.

How many different things are going on that shave off the years?


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2261 times:

Thank IBM/Dassault CATIA.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2259 times:

Here's the analogy I like to think of: The computer that worked the Apollo moon trip fit in a warehouse. Today, the average desktop is capable of doing the same thing. It's not that the technology has changed that much, it's that it has gotten an almost inconceivably large number of times faster and more efficient. It still functions the same as it did before, but so much has been learned, the the speed of technological improvement is not linear, but exponential.

I would assume that airplane production runs along the same line. Thanks to increases in speed and capacity in computer programming, research processes are not only faster, they have immediate access to all PRIOR knowledge, and can use that to their advantage.

I think, that within our lifetimes, we will see the birthing process of new airplanes shrink dramatically.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2248 times:

CATIA is a great program. I actually don't think Airbus uses it, they use something different.

IBM really has something great with their sponsorship and sales of the Dassault software. CATIA and the whole PLM software runs on IRIX, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, and Windows - but you never hear about anyone running it on anything but AIX.

N


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2230 times:

What blew me away was that the newest version of CATIA that Boeing is using for the 7E7 not only simulates structural integration, but it allows for the software to be tested within the simulated hardware. Boeing then knows not only how the hardware will plug together, but how the software will interface with the hardware... before the first piece is built...

The whole computer/composite integration is also very cool. The computer controlled machinery that produces the fuselage barrels can control how many wraps of material to use for the -3 or -8/9 variants, so no version is too heavy.

How many different things are going on that shave off the years?

The aggressive risk-sharing venture has probably reduced the development time IMO... critical components now have even more workers focused on them...


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2207 times:

Gigneil:

You'll start seeing (if not already) CATIA show up a lot on Linux, though still on IBM hardware. IBM is gradually moving away from AIX.

And also, I figure IBM will wind up just picking up CATIA from Dassault at some point.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2192 times:

>And also, I figure IBM will wind up just picking up CATIA from Dassault at some point.<

I doubt Dassault would want to give up that kind of income stream.

>The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!<

I believe the plane was first concieved around the 1985-1986 launch time for the 747-400



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2165 times:

N1120a

What if Dassault doesn't have a choice? IBM all of a sudden has a lot of extra money! (As of today)



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2155 times:

Today, even with German extreme high quality cars, the whole design is done in a joke of time.
Mostly, because markets demand that.

Take that: Mercedes brings the new E, BMW and Audi are to react. Audi being the Nr 3 traditionally, the market gives them more time. When they finally come up with a new model, it is superior to BMW and MB, because high ambition and newer. So MB and BMW are forced to react. Then Audi........ and so on...

Also, outsourcing, computer design, using famailiar design (composites are not new, just used more than before...) and so on...

Just look into here... if A or B mentions the idea of maybe starting a new project 50 years ahead of now, our friends in this forum will take that statement to make the opponent look bad...



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2147 times:

The 777 stated life in the early 80's after the 757/767 planes grew into their markets (I suppose), it did not fly until 1994, nearly fifteen years!

The Boeing website says:
--"Winter 1986...Boeing begins assessing the market for an airplane sized between the 767-300 and the 747-400."
--"Dec. 8, 1989...The Boeing board of directors authorizes the company to issue firm offers for the 767-X (the development name for what became the 777)."

pilottim747



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

CATIA is a great program. I actually don't think Airbus uses it, they use something different.

I think they use EDS Unigraphics. I wonder if this is because Dassault is a historical competitor to the French component of EADS.

IBM really has something great with their sponsorship and sales of the Dassault software. CATIA and the whole PLM software runs on IRIX, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, and Windows - but you never hear about anyone running it on anything but AIX.

Well the relationship originated when IBM sold their CADAM 2D CAD package to Dassault in the 80s. The original versions of CATIA ran on IBM mainframes, not UNIX workstations. Wasn't the 777 at least partly designed on a mainframe version? I don't think there will be much demand for IRIX or HPUX versions in the long run because SGI and HP's OS and platform strategy are kind of hazy. Sun's hardware is just too slow. Windows CATIA installations must be growing though. Linux is probably the future for the UNIX versions.

What if Dassault doesn't have a choice? IBM all of a sudden has a lot of extra money! (As of today)

That's probably not enough money. Plus IBM would want to still be able to work with the other CAD vendors. Owning CATIA would make that a little bit harder. However, the software business is quite different from Dassault's other business, so they might spin off completely.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8226 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

I'm still amazed that the 747 was designed with a lot of slide rulers as well as limited computer facilities. It might be that the human efforts were the primary factor in the plane being as beautiful as it is. Computers can't match people when it comes to designing something beautiful.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Atmx2000:

Actually, EADS owns around 40% of Dassault. How's that for irony?



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

N1120a and Pilottim747, I sit corrected.

Winter 86 to Summer 94 is about 7.5 years. For 7E7, it would be Winter (I suppose) 2002 to sometime in 2008: less than 6 years. Pretty good. Sucks that those more workers focusing on the project are not American...outsource for sure.  Sad



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Actually, EADS owns around 40% of Dassault. How's that for irony?

You are right. Apparently it is 46%. However, the family that owns most of Dassault's shares resists a closer relationship and tries to maintain the company's independence despite the French government's predilection towards merging companies as it sees fit.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

Winter 86 to Summer 94 is about 7.5 years. For 7E7, it would be Winter (I suppose) 2002 to sometime in 2008: less than 6 years. Pretty good. Sucks that those more workers focusing on the project are not American...outsource for sure

Well, maybe this will free up some brain power to think about and design Boeing's future projects like the 747Adv and the 737 successor so that they can hit the market sooner.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
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