EurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 9 Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1895 times:
Toronto would be profitable on the long run. But I heard they won't add Toronto until New York and San Fransisco are proved profitable (did they start to SFO??? excuse my ignorance there if they didnt).
EurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1882 times:
ooops...Well I believe Toronto has a bigger market than San Fransisco. For one, the large Sub-continent community in Toronto (Indian, Pakistani) would find a Dubai connection very convenient and the fares may be competitive. The only issue is the question of yields. To the best of my knowledge, the amount and extent of construction and business in Dubai involves an increasing number of Canadian companies most of whom are based in Ontario, I would therefore conclude that yields won't be bad at all.
EurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1765 times:
Here is some information I got from a Canadian government website:
Trade dominates Canada's relations with the UAE. The volume of Canadian exports to UAE reached $ CAD 224.3 million in 2000 and have been growing faster than with any other country in the Middle East and North Africa (more than fourfold since 1992). Over 40 Canadian companies have established offices in the UAE. The Embassy and Consulate are currently assisting Canadian companies in pursuing over $2 billion of projects.
The Canadian Business Councils (CBC) in Abu Dhabi and Dubai were established by Canadian companies resident in the UAE to promote trade relations and exchange of information amongst their members. The CBC in Abu Dhabi has some 75 members and the CBC in Dubai 143.
Overall relations between Canada and the UAE have been further strengthened by the increase in exchange of high-level visits such as the visit of the Governor General in March 1998, and by the Canadian Minister of International Trade and the Québec Deputy Premier in 1999.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4439 posts, RR: 43 Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1692 times:
Yes we all know EK would do v well from YYZ with multiple weekly A 345s nonstop from DXB but unless they negiotiate a settlement with AC regarding how many flights they are allowed to fly to YYZ from DXB...nothing will be sure.
AC dont want EK to fly daily as they only want to fly max 4 weekly to DXB and plus GF and EY have too asked for slots at YYZ so it will be unfair for AC to compete against 3 carriers all eyeing for their East African, Indo-Pak, DEL, BOM, DAC, CMB and Arab traffic. AC carries for these 3 Gulf carriers a lot of their pax transatlantic to LHR-CDG-FRA where then they connect to the Gulf carrier via the Gulf city hub to their final destination. All in all AC feels the biggest loser here and only want EK to fly 4 weekly max and not daily.
EurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 9 Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1669 times:
I do not recall Air Canada as having indicated interest in serving any Middle Eastern destination eastward than Beirut. In fact, I can hardly imagine them starting a new service to the Gulf. I think it would be smarter for Air Canada to allow Emirates to develop the market, before it enters it itself a few years later. I believe that an Emirates service will run more efficiently as a daily flight and not 3-4 weekly.
Therefore I don't think Air Canada has much to loose in allowing an Emirates daily service to develop/explore the market.
EK773 From Malta, joined Jul 2004, 217 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1539 times:
Why is AC so heavily protected by the Canadian government? This disagreement about EK frequencies sounds similar to the spat they had many years ago with SQ. AC seems to be very scared of decent rated competition.
Lazionic From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 21 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1421 times:
I have also seen EK advertising in the National Post. I remember last summer EK was looking to hire filght attendants from the YYZ area. AC has DXB on thier list of future routes, from what was shown on a presentation I saw in YYZ.
Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.
Sebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1658 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1405 times:
I don't think AC is scared of any Origin-Destination competition with EK on Dubai. The issue is poaching of third country traffic. International bilateral agreements are based on the concept of balance of benefits. You give rights as good as you get. Canada-Dubai is basically an Origin-Destination route for AC, but a major hub route for EK. So where is the balance of benefits? What does AC (or any other Canadian carrier) get in exchange? The Emirates government agreed to this bilateral agreement, but not EK seems to be changing the terms. If they have a better deal to offer Canada, let them ask their government to amend the bilateral agreement.
And why does AC have to twist itself into a pretzel to accommodate EK? Let EK start the route with four frequencies. I'm sure they can make money. If they are holding out for daily service as a prerequisite for starting service, it sounds like an excuse to me. They want optimum profitability handed to them on a platter.
They should go on the route, prove its worth and stop whining.
As for the ads, keep in mind that a lot of Canadians travelling around the world fly EK as connections in Europe or Asia. The ads do not in and of themselves say a damn thing about the carrier's intentions towards Canada. I've seen ads in Canadian publications for South African Airways because you go get their flights in the U.S. It doesn't mean SAA sees Canada as a market it wants to serve directly any time soon.
Sebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1658 posts, RR: 15 Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1384 times:
I would add to my previous post that EK's bid to enter Canada with more flights than the bilateral currently allows might be helped if governments like India or Pakistan consent to more liberal access to their countries for AC. That would make the fifth freedom provisions in the current UAE-Cda bilateral meaningful to AC and thus redress the current imbalance of benefits. Or might that make EK unhappy? It seems as if EK wants everything its way. Quite often, these fifth freedom rights are included in bilateral air agreement because nobody expects them to be extensively utilized except perhaps through codesharing. Canada learned the hard way with AC's YYZ-LHR-BOM-SIN route that there is a thing as being too successful in using fifth freedom rights. Would EK be so pro-competition if AC started a Toronto-Dubai-Lahore route and actually filled the Dubai-Lahore portion with commuting Pakistani guest workers, cutting into EK's big market share there? Chances are they would not. Let Canada and India conclude an open skies agreement (they are in negotiations), and then have the UAE government waive the 50% capacity ceiling for AC on Dubai-Bombay fifth freedoms, and I bet AC wouldn't be so against daily service for EK to YYZ.
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 9 Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1283 times:
You would be surprised how many travel agencies look to EK whenever one requests a fare quote to places in the indian subcontinent, middle east or africa, even though EK does not serve all places nor any single point in Canada. I know people who go to East Africa via Dubai (yes, after going to Europe using Air Canada or Ba or Lufthansa) in order to get to their final destination. Perhaps EK has a generous agent comission structure?
Yegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1678 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1230 times:
Toronto based engineering/construction/consulting firms are quite involved in some really large projects in Dubai. As a matter of fact, many of teh projects at the Dubai Marina project were designed by Toronto based firms...
When I worked in Dubai 6 years ago, there was a significant contingent of Canadians in Dubai (but also in other parts of the UAE).
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4439 posts, RR: 43 Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1192 times:
Emirates should have learnt from their JFK mistakes that its not feasible to start such a long haul and possibly price conscious market with daily 260 seater flights!!! 4 weekly is fine and they shouldnt cry about it.
The vast majority of their target market pax from YYZ will be low yield ones going to NBO-DAR-ADD-LHE-ISB-KHI-INDIA-CMB-Arabia-DAC who usually scout the cheapest deal available in the market. Thats why u see Aeroflot having a considerable market share of pax on the YYZ-DEL-YYZ route!!!
If u ask me, 4 weekly DXB-YYZ-DXB A 345s for EK is absolutely fine for the time being and if they want more, well then they should lobby in the future for that using their govt's influence and other methods.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1175 times:
Sebring, AFAIK the Canada-UAE bilateral only grants fifth-freedom rights (with the 50% capacity restriction you mention) between INTERMEDIATE POINTS and the UAE, not between the UAE and POINTS BEYOND. Hence, your points about capacity would be moot anyway.
Furthermore, the capacity restriction on 4x weekly services has long expired and there are now 6x weekly services permitted in each direction as of June 2003.
Finally, while Canada and India have been in discussions for a new Air Services Agreement for years now, neither have ever signed an open skies agreement with another country and I highly doubt they will begin now with each other.