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NW New Hub To Europe  
User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 653 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8638 times:

With all the talk of the success that CO is having flying 757 to europe from EWR, Would it not make sense for NW to try and get into PHL (not as a focus city) or maybe even PIT and try and set up a 757 hub to fly to europe?

They could fly to LGW, SNN, OSL (seasonal), KEF, BHX, MAN, CDG, AMS and CPH.

I don't see this as lose-lose situation for NW because they could fly an extra flight to each hub and increase connections, they also could get over flow traffic or vise versa with CO out of NW, and they could go after US in the process. Does any of this make sense, or am I just dreaming here?

WingnutMN


Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8521 times:

CPH, KEF, and OSL would work better out of MSP with a widebody being the fact that their are many "northerners" in the twin cities and around MN. Just like Icelandair flies MSP-KEF-MSP with their 757's.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8520 times:

Dreaming as far as PIT goes the O/D numbers are just nor there for the flights! PHL maybe?


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8477 times:

Wouldn't PIT be kind of a non-issue, considering that geographically its nearly the same distance from Europe that DTW is?

Too bad there wasn't more available space at BOS for that.



"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33272 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8436 times:

CPH, KEF, and OSL would work better out of MSP with a widebody being the fact that their are many "northerners" in the twin cities and around MN.

When Northwest launched MSP-OSL service in 1999 to much fanfare, the daily DC-10 service lasted less than seven months.



a.
User currently offlineStretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2568 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (10 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8389 times:

The ONLY place that makes sense for NW to increase its service to the EU is DTW, end of story. They (NW) spent millions on the new terminal, which has received rave reviews for both domestic and international connections.


Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6608 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (10 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8370 times:

Too bad there wasn't more available space at BOS for that.

Didn't NW used to have a transatlantic hub to Europe from BOS?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2230 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8358 times:
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It would depend on the availability of ETOP 757s that NW has and the costs of converting more if needed. We already know they cannot get more -300s. We keep hearing from A.netters about NW and Ireland and that does seem like a suitable acft for that. With the shift in all the US carriers to International routes because of the low yield of domestic routes it will not be long before those are oversaturated as well.


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6527 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8330 times:

The NWA 752's are not ETOP'S and I don't believe there are any plans to make them so. The 753's which are ETOP'S, do not have the range for profitable trans-atlantic flights.

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (10 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8318 times:

Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineBluejackets From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 280 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8173 times:

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!


It's funny when I tell people I love planes and they think I'm weird.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8048 times:

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!

They are equipped for it, and would be made availible across the pond in the unlikely event that it happened, just like NW does on the 753's to hawaii.  Big grin



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7868 times:
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Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart
MSP-OSL were never all that full after the introduction. The codeshare wit Braathens didn't end until 3 years after. We still codeshared with them out of AMS for that time. It just did not generate the traffic that they'd hoped.

The NWA 752's are not ETOP'S and I don't believe there are any plans to make them so
They aren't ETOP's qualified, but ships 5636-5649 were built with partial ETOP's provisionings. But you're probably right, they may not use them for such.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineNeilalp From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1034 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7836 times:

NW couldn't fly the 752!, there's no IFE!!!!!!, pax would go bored to death and starting dropping into the pond!!!

Well I took ATA 757 across the pond from DTW-FRA. I don't recall it having IFE, but it was about 10 years ago. Nothing like a cramed 757 on an 8 hour flight.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7790 times:

The reason CO is so successful with their European flights is their high number of O&D passengers into the New York area. Philadelphia, despite its size, is not a large enough market to justify NW's expansion into that area. Consider also the connecting traffic that would have to be routed to PHL through MSP, DTW, and MEM. Two connections? Not really feasible.

Here's another way to think of it. CO flies to Asia, but mostly for IAH and EWR. From Las Vegas, a CO frequent flier is not going to choose LAS-IAH-NRT. Although possible, that's not CO's market. But United will quickly connect that person through SFO and LAX. It's the same with NW - from the west and midwest, connecting through MSP or DTW is not an issue, but for someone on the east coast, it's not likely they want to backtrack. No airline can please everyone, so they get as many as they can.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (10 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7686 times:

From Las Vegas, a CO frequent flier is not going to choose LAS-IAH-NRT

No but they would likely take NW since NW has a LAS-LAX flight, so they would go LAS-LAX-NRT all on NW metal, but i see your point.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

Actually the flights were full, but ended after codeshare agreements with the local carrier fell apart
MSP-OSL were never all that full after the introduction. The codeshare wit Braathens didn't end until 3 years after. We still codeshared with them out of AMS for that time. It just did not generate the traffic that they'd hoped.


My mistake, I thought that I read that they were full.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26783 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7366 times:

>No but they would likely take NW since NW has a LAS-LAX flight, so they would go LAS-LAX-NRT all on NW metal, but i see your point<

That is why that was upgraded from a DC-9 to an A319 and the A319 still goes overbooked in all classes everyday, NW FF's and Japanese tourists. If it were not for equipment rotation problems it would be at least an A320, probably a 757



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineNWADTWFA From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 162 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

LAS-LAX was never intened to operate as a DC9. It only operated that way for the first week. A DC9 on that route would not be good fleet utilization as there are no other DC9's in or out of LAS or LAX.

Cheers,
NWADTWFA


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (10 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7178 times:
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A DC9 on that route would not be good fleet utilization as there are no other DC9's in or out of LAS or LAX.
That's partly due to the fact that we're the only airline in the US that operates the DC9. Big thumbs up



Made from jets!
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7017 times:
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My mistake, I thought that I read that they were full

Well they were in the very beginning, but the loads took a serious nose-dive in late-July, which was a leading indicator that the low yeilds would not get better. I believe it was October when the route was suspended. It was one of the shortest spans that NW operated a route in it's history.Accoding to folklore, part of the reason started flying was they were sucked into believing that they would have a strong originating/terminating traffic. A tragic miscalculation if it was true.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

NW used Boston as a transatlantic gateway from 1982-83 to around 1992. It didn't work for them. Flying from Detroit has proven to be more successful for their core traffic which is from the midwest.

User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6706 times:
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Well the Boston mini-hub started to come apart in 1996. BOS-AMS-BOM patterns still exist. We had several west coast and south Florida cities from BOS nonstop.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineAA B777-200 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2001, 506 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6379 times:

I agree with Stretch8,

NW should remain focussed on DTW, that's it. I think they (NW) are doing just fine with KLM (and now AF).
They tried PHL-AMS before and that didn't work.
I just hope that the transatlantic DC10s will be replaced SOON with more 333s.


User currently offlineRyanAFAMSP From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6373 times:

The bottom line is that the industry is in a chronic state of overcapacity. Every major has negative margins except for NW, whose are basically flat. The LAST thing anyone needs to do is dump more seats into any market. EVERY legacy carrier's solution to the crisis is to pour more capacity into international. Can't make money on ATL-LAX? Fly to China! Can't make money on EWR-SFO? Fly a second TLV! When everyone has the same solution to the problem, they will only create more of a problem.

NW has been successful because of their shrewd analysis of trends in the marketplace and the refusal to waste capital on pie in the sky ideas. IND, MKE, FNT, etc. are underserved. The NRT hub as fantastic traffic and yield potential. Trying to stretch the shit out of 757s they bought 20 years ago for MSP-DCA to be the second competitor in in KEF and OSL sounds like the worst possible idea in the current marketplace.

Keep the 757s in the fortress hubs ripping Minnesotans and Michiganders off going to the west coast. It has worker forever!


25 Vadheim : I think a B757 service between Minneapolis and Scandinavia would work though! Minneapolis area has the largest "Scandinavian" population in America.
26 BestWestern : Honestly - the only non MSP and DTW trans-atlantic flying I see NW doing are using the 330 from MEM - to AMS, LGW and CDG.
27 Post contains images Trent900 : They could always fly to STN. CO's flights were always full but for some reason they pulled out just after 9/11. Used it as an excuse I suppose. Trent
28 Post contains images BestWestern : Trent, I know its early - please apply some brain power.. An airline wouldnt pull a profitable long haul route, now would they. Transatlantic is not a
29 Mtnmanmakalu : NWA used to fly PHL-AMS a few years back but pulled the plug on low load factors. When I worked the flights, they were very light- 100 pax on a DC-10
30 Jetjack74 : Also, the PHL-AMS fares were heavily discounted and still couldn't draw any traffic. We lost over 30 million on that route the 21 months we flew it. I
31 Stretch 8 : Who the hell would fly from Memphis to Paris?
32 Dtwintlflyer : Well, connecting pax who come into MEM might fly to CDG...especially if they were continuing on to other cities in Europe. And vice versa (don't forge
33 Flyibaby : Strech 8, FEDEX would...lol.
34 Bobnwa : Stretch8, The same kind of people who from Memphis to Amsterdam!!!
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