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Politics Or Performance?  
User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

First of all I need to get one thing very clear: I am NOT anti-American or anti-Boeing. My boss is from Detroit as is his boss, I am frequently in West Michigan on business. Some of my best friends are Americans. I am one of those Canadians who views the US as a next door neighbour and our best friend in the world.

That all being said, I am seeking to get a reasonable debate going about the role of international politics in the aircraft choices that carriers around the world make.
One could argue endlessly about which aircraft is superior e.g.. B777 v A340 or
A330 v 767 or others, regarding their respective economics, take-off performance etc. I would contend that each airline has specific utilisation patterns which make one aircraft or the other better for them as well as purchase price. I have read a lot of nonsense on a.net and other forums about things like the weak climb performance of one type over another etc. and the contention by some that certain aircraft types are nothing short of miraculous in their super-abilities. One particular B777 cheer-leader comes to mind!!!  Smile

Look at the world today. With all that is going on, the US is running low on friends. Yes, many countries are the declared allies of the US but the feeling on the ground in many of these countries is a dislike of US foreign policy, a feeling that the US is trying to ram it's lifestyle and value systems on them. I was born in Ireland and during a recent visit to Canada by some of my relatives I was taken aback by their vitriolic dislike of the US, President Bush and other Americana. I found myself defending our American friends in many debates. Now if this attitude is widespread, and I have reason to believe it is, what role does it play politically when decisions are made on aircraft procurement.

While one would expect that such things would be decided on economics and performance parameters, do you think that this anti-Americanism plays a significant role? If it does, what is the extent of it? I look at some countries where there is significant 'heartache' about US foreign policy such as Ireland and I see the National airline becoming an all-Airbus operator. Of course there is also Mr.O'Leary who apparently hates Airbus. He would not buy an Airbus under any circumstances (or so it seems to me) and does not think outside the Boeing Box. Is it politics more than economics or performance issues that
motivates him.

Consider the Islamic world, and the issues that exist ideologically between the Islamic world and the secular world. What influences does that bring to bear in the choices that airlines from those countries make? Anyway my intention is not to start a big fight like A v B, US v EU etc. but rather to understand what clinches the deal when all other things are equal. Politics or Performance?

Here goes nothing!!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


I have no memory of this place.
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7924 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

The cost to an airline of buying the wrong machine for the job is too great, so political differences are set aside. Very few Emirates passengers (who are mostly Arabs, Muslims, Indians, Europeans) would hold a pro-American political outlook and the same applies to the management, but EK fly loads of 777s and as a pro outfit, will continue to buy Boeing if it's right.

As I pointed out earlier today, the fact that Air France are the only non-Asian airline with the 777-300 speaks volumes. It's about the best aircraft for the job - airline economics are marginal at best, without trying to favour Airbus cos their parent nations aren't bombing the bejesus out of any innocent third world countries.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1323 times:

As an American, I really don't think there are any "third party" airlines that favor Boeing over Airbus because they are pro-US or anti-Europe. However, I do think that European airlines favor Airbus due to geographic loyalty, while American airlines favor Boeing.

This isn't absolute, of course. As Cedarjet said, AF operates the 777 and apparently loves the plane. Likewise, NW just ordered the A330. Still, you have airlines like AA and CO, which are pretty much all-Boeing, and airlines like LH are pretty much only buying new Airbuses.

I'm a pro-Boeing American, and I believe the Airbus subsidies are unfair. But outside of pricing, I don't believe that plays a role in an airline determining which manufacturer to contract with.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

OK. I am an American. A group of investors just gave me $1 billion to start a new LCC in the US. I need to buy planes. My first presumption is that I want to have one main aircraft type to start with as the other successful LCC's have proved that this method works.

My options are:

1. Buy use 737's - there should be enough to get started. My understanding is that there are not enough 320's on the used market to make a go of it.

2. Buy new Airbus 320 series aircraft

3. Buy new Boeing 737's.

What do I do? Based on recent history, Jet Blue has shown that new really helps get started by minimizing maintenance and maximizing fleet efficiency. The airlines that have tried buying a bunch of used equipment to conserve capital seem to struggle more.

I will listen to both companies. The best offer wins. Nation of origin and patriotism be dammed. The public has proven with their buying habits that they do not care which plane they are on. And, both companies really build INTERNATIONAL planes anyway with lots of foreign content.

Which ever one pencils out the best for my model wins!

Over simplified to be sure, but I hope you get my point.

Mike


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

Ssides: "I'm a pro-Boeing American, and I believe the Airbus subsidies are unfair. "

Wasn't there an agreement 10 years ago that allowed Airbus "subsidies"?
Anyway, let's all cry about the bad behavour and subsidies B and A gets.
What do you think, why is Japan buying lots of B planes? Because they are so good?
The USA has lots of outstanding debts and it's the easiest way to get the money back (for Japan). Is THAT fair?

So let's all sit back and cry how bad the other site is.







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User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1250 times:

Wasn't there an agreement 10 years ago that allowed Airbus "subsidies"?

Longer


Is THAT fair?

...looks to be so


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 911 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

My understanding is that there are not enough 320's on the used market to make a go of it.

Oh... just you wait a couple of weeks  Big grin

What do I do? Based on recent history, Jet Blue has shown that new really helps get started by minimizing maintenance and maximizing fleet efficiency.

And a massive inital investment doesn't hurt either. By the way, here's another case of Southwest did it first only to go unnoticed: they have preferred new aircraft over second-hand aircraft 99% of the time.


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1238 times:

@Concordeboy - looks to be so.

We are talking about moral, Concordeboy - and it's very funny to see somebody throwing slime and crying when he gets slime from the other site.
Do you have problems with your own language? concorde?

[Edited 2004-12-21 21:38:39]


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User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

The airlines, customers of the aircraft manufacturers, do not care about the subsidy issue. They care about their own profits and the planes that will help them make it. In my example in reply 5 I would love to say, as an American that I will always buy Boeing. But as a businessman beholden to my investors, I would be derelict in my duties to take an option that will cost more just to be patriotic.

I would also love to hear what PW, GE and RR say about A vs. B. Be interesting to be a fly on the wall at some of their executive meetings. Personally I think they could care less which one of the companies gets the order as long as it uses their engines.

Mike


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

Flyabunch, all the subsidy issue is sort of propaganda, published because it's popular to say that the reason for bad sales numbers is the unfair competitor.
As long as the orders come, nobody would cry out how unfair business is.



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User currently offlineCRPilot From Costa Rica, joined Nov 2004, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

I believe that when an Airline Exec. looks at big picture, the primary concern particularly in today's economy, is cost control. In terms of range and efficiency, both Airbus and Boeing are very similar, so as mentioned before it all boils down to price. Having a healthy cash sheet is incredibly important in this business, and there's no doubt that cost control through the acquisition of a good purchase package (which includes finance rates) plays a big role.

Politics, well, I don't think anyone really cares, it would be highly unprofessional to let personal political views influence what's best for your company...is just that simple.



Flying is a privilege!
User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1198 times:

NumberTwelve,

Take it easy. A guy with a respect rating of 82, like Concordeboy, obviously knows what he's talking about. This was a remarkably peaceful thread before you posted, please take your negativity elsewhere.


To get back to the point, this has always been a question that interests me. In America it seems like we see a little of both, AA flies all American aircraft with the exception of the A300, (AA raves about its cargo carrying abilities.) CO is very publicly pro-Boeing. However, airlines like F9 have moved away from Boeing, and B6 obviously likes its Airbuses too. US and UA both chose the A320 family over replacement 737's. NW has a mix but is quickly moving towards an Airbus based fleet (I personally expect them to take the A350 over the 787.) From this I can see that while some airlines are biased by the country of the manufacturer, the majority of American carriers pick the plane that suits them best.

-Andrew


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1188 times:

@CRPilot: if product is almost the same why not choose the cheaper plane. Also you can find hundreds of reasons if you don't want to buy a special product.
In a couple of Arabic countries there is a Cola producer (unfortunatelly dont know the name) who sells very good. Reason is not that they produce better Cola but customers don't want to buy US products. Same with fast food shops - you will find fast food shops (with excellent meal by the way) in lots of Arabic countries.
And of course: this is also possible with planes. If there is (nearly) the same product, they buy A product (look at QR). But you're right: if the A product doesn't fit, they take B.



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User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1165 times:

We are talking about moral, Concordeboy

Since when do morals affect intercontinental business transactions?



and it's very funny to see somebody throwing slime and crying when he gets slime from the other site

Not quite sure what that has to do with me, seeing as I don't give much consideration to either company's capital acquisition techniques.



Do you have problems with your own language? concorde?

I don't... but I'd more than happily switch to yours, or any of 8 others... should you  Big grin



As long as the orders come, nobody would cry out how unfair business is.

.......I guess that's why we're currently mere inches away from a WTO aviation industry trade dispute?  Nuts



it all boils down to price

The difference being whether that price considered is longterm or short term.

One manufacturer has a knack for impressive acquisition incentives, whereas the other's products tend to devalue at a considerably slower rate.

The airlines choose accordingly.



it would be highly unprofessional to let personal political views influence what's best for your company...is just that simple

...and yet; it's still done every day, in so many ways, in so many industries  Sad



if product is almost the same why not choose the cheaper plane.

Simple: the cheaper plane might end up costing you more over time.


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