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JAL 7E7 Order Rumor  
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5802 posts, RR: 47
Posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7759 times:

I saw on the Commercial Aircraft Orders web site (on Yahoo! Groups) that JAL is about to place a firm order for 18 7E7s as well as an unspecified number of options. The news comes from the Asian Wall Street Journal. Can anyone confrim this?

[Edited 2004-12-21 23:48:18]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7576 times:

I read this as well but I was very suprised to see JAL looking at the 7E7 before a 734/MD-80 replacement, if these rumors prove to be true. JAL is one of the airlines that will inevitably lean toward the 7E7 and was rumored to be among the first customers last year.....

The A300's JAL aquired via merger are still very young I believe....


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7546 times:

Very young, the youngest in the industry.

If it weren't for the close US ties, I think the A300 might have been the perfect airliner for the Japanese domestic market. JAS loved them.

JAL's 767s are getting on in years, so they could be planning to replace those. Would be weird given their recent order of 8 767-300s to replace some of JAS' non -600R A300s.

N


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7542 times:

Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

JAL would be the most logical and easiest 'win' for the B7E7....



User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5802 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7526 times:

Yes but seeing that ANA ordered them, that might have pressured JALs board to expedite the purchase. The 7E7s will be an economically better aircraft vs. 767 and A300.

Does anyone have a link to the AWSJ article?



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7501 times:

, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least

Because the inital 12 months of sales matter for anything in the long run? At least the 7E7 has one blue-chip customer  Nuts

the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

I'd all an Air Europa launch order about as spectacular as the Primaris 7E7 order  Big grin

JAL's 767s are getting on in years, so they could be planning to replace those. Would be weird given their recent order of 8 767-300s to replace some of JAS' non -600R A300s.

The order doesn't necessairly have to be an A300 replacement.... they could opt for the longhaul variants first. Then again, how are young A300 resale values right now versus their projected future values?


User currently offlinePhxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7484 times:

"Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!"

Oh please, taking an existing plane and stretching it is not stealing the show. Also, I'm sure Air Europa was already in discussions with Airbus before the 350 was 'officially' launched.



Keepin' it real.
User currently offlineBH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7464 times:

With JAL's large 767 fleet (as well as the A300s inherited from JAS) as well as Japan's relationship with Boeing, it's only a matter of time before JAL orders 7E7s. However, as said, it was said that JAL would look at a narrowbody replacement for their 737 classics, MD-80s, and MD-90s before ordering a 767/A300 replacement. With their merger with Japan Air System a few years ago, I imagine that it wouldn't be such a great idea to order all of these planes at once. They're not as strong financially as ANA as a result of the merger and integration costs.

It is true that the ex-JAS A300s are among the newest A300s out there. However, to simplify their fleet, they'll probably go since they have a large 767 fleet.



Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7374 times:

Well, It would certainly not surprise me to see at least SOME of the many airlines rumoured to be ready to order the B7E7 for months to step forward and actually DO it, because right now, the B7E7 sales are disappointing to say the least and the A350 is steeling the show: launched only 11 days ago and already with a new airbus customer in the order book for 10 planes!

JAL would be the most logical and easiest 'win' for the B7E7....


Oh please, the A350 is stealing the show? LOL...i got a good laugh from that one. I dont think 56 orders within the first year of offering is half-bad and there's a lot more to come in 2005.




Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

Some people here just can't have it when they are reminded of the 'disappointing sale figures for the B7E7', can they?

Mind you, the fact Boeing missed their own set sales target for the B7E7 is echoed allover each time the B7E7 is mentioned and can thus also be found in this AWSJ article:

"A decision by Japan's largest airline to buy the Dreamliner would give a badly needed boost to the plane's sluggish sales campaign. Although Boeing had initially projected that it would collect orders for 200 of the jets by the end of the year, it has so far taken firm orders for only 56 of them."







User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7284 times:

Missing the orders isn't a problem, not knowing how your own market or sales campaigns are going is. It is widely understood that shareholder and market confidence in Boeing isn't the best at the moment, the Sonic Cruiser and the management problems echoing the need for reinforced confidence in the company. Announcing you will have 200 orders by year end and not meeting this target is not good for Boeing, not good at all. Whether the 200 orders arrive January 1st 05 isn't the point.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

Announcing you will have 200 orders by year end and not meeting this target is not good for Boeing, not good at all.

Well duh... to my knowledge, the exec. who was touting the "200 sales" banner has been fired. It was plausible that the 7E7 could have 200 orders by this time, but that didn't justify the announcement. The interest for 200 7E7s was present in June/July (probably still is), but I think someone got a little zealous at the probabilty they would convert into firm orders....


User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7198 times:

Either you believe too much of what you read in the media or you aren't too up to date on how a major manufacturer deals with announcements of sales projections. Boeing can't hide behind one man, regardless of his position. Toby got a raw deal, given the amount of resources he was granted. You can't simply pull a figure of 200 orders out of your **** for the biggest aircraft to enter service for years, at a time when market confidence in your company is as low as it is for Boeing. Boeing was onto a good thing and were extremely agressive in marketing the 7E7 and signing new 7E7 customers. Something between mid-2004 and now has gone off track, though I'm not too sure what is. It couldn't have been entirely the A350.

When you speak you want people to stand up and listen, not slouch back knowing they have to take your words with a grain of salt.


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7196 times:

phxinterrupted...

I'm sure Air Europa was already in discussions with Airbus before the 350 was 'officially' launched.

Obviously no airline will order a plane without first looking into all the details, so YES Air Europa was in discussions long before the A350 was offically launched, probably already even at the time many here were still saying the A350 was nothing more than an easy way of Airbus to stall the B7E7 sales campaign and that they couldn't come up with something truly competitive so quick and while still working on the A380....

indeed Widebody! You are 100% correct!
I guess some people in Seattle are beginning to sweat right now, because at first it looked as if it was going to be such an easy win for the B7E7, they even felt strong enough to promise 200 planes sold by the end of this year. Then Airbus managed to withhold all airlines (apart from -not surprisingly- Japan's ANA) from signing up right away and just have a look at their project too and as time passed by, impressive performance specifications for the A350 were published in the press. Performance specifications which hinted at a plane much more than a simple re-engined stretch, since it would match the B7E7's efficiency and even undercut its operating costs! Several high profile airlines already named as possible launch customers for the B7E7 subsequently went as far as publicly criticizing the B7E7 for being to small (EK) and called upon Airbus to go ahead with their plans (EI). And now the first order for the A350 is confirmed while the B7E7 hasn't sold a single time since all this started around 3 months ago! I'd call that a stunning way to fight back from Airbus and YES, they are STEELING THE SHOW this year (once again)!


[Edited 2004-12-22 01:07:12]

User currently offlineWidebody From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 1152 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7181 times:

PS. Boeing has a habit of sacrificing those who are publicly found to do wrong, you'd be kidding yourself to believe they act individually and without authorisation.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7103 times:

PS. Boeing has a habit of sacrificing those who are publicly found to do wrong, you'd be kidding yourself to believe they act individually and without authorisation.

Well no duh... but as opposed to some more dubious corperations and presidential administrations, there is a degree of accountability for upper-level executives. I think that's something the world could use more of....

(EI). And now the first order for the A350 is confirmed while the B7E7 hasn't sold a single time since all this started around 3 months ago! I'd call that a stunning way to fight back from Airbus and YES, they are STEELING THE SHOW this year (once again)!

Well hold the anti-persprent, but I don't see much sweat. The market for 200-300 seat aircraft is so large, both could sell 800+ easily in the next 15 years. If you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technilogically superior aircraft that will enter service first... you need a stark reality check  Insane


User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5310 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7038 times:

@DfwRevolution:you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technilogically superior aircraft that will enter service first... you need a stark reality check

Since when has entry into service really mattered, consider A340-300 vs. the Triple7.




Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5802 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

Sabenapilot,
You seemed to forget that the 777 had fewer orders a year into the program yet that program has been a huge winner for Boeing.. The 7E7 hads more orders than the 777 did at one year. The fact that Airbus was forced to respond to the 7E7 after it was offered is more proof of the 7E7 potential.

Airbus was not planning to build the A350 coming into 2004 now with the 7E7 garnering so much interest, they have to respond.

I think you need to revise your definition of success.
The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6953 times:

DfwRevolution,

The market for 200-300 seat aircraft is so large, both could sell 800+ easily in the next 15 years.

Certainly, the B7E7 will one day reach the 200 sold mark, no doubt on my mind about it... only not this year... and maybe not even next...
Just run through the list of rumoured customers (and give them a percentage of likeliness to order the B7E7 soon) and the number of planes they'd need and you'll see that 200 figure is not on the horizon very soon.

If you think Airbus is poised to take greater than 50% market share over a technologically superior aircraft that will enter service first
I am pleased to read you too have finally come to the conclusion the A350 will take a very significant market share away from the B7E7, something unthinkable only a few months ago (Boeing thought they'd have that market segment all for themselves).

BTW, have you ever wondered how come a 'technologically superior aircraft' Boeing has been bragging over for almost a year now at every occasion as being a 'quantum leap forward' is so easily matched and even outclassed in some ways by a modified version of THE ONE plane it was designed for and supposed to beat????

I think the B7E7 does indeed contain some very interesting and even amazing technological features for which Boeing must be given all credit, but one equally has to admit 2 very big STRATEGIC errors have been made in Seattle.
The first one was that Boeing did not expect Airbus to counter their B7E7 with something new for numerous reasons: massive cost of the A380 project, relative young age of the A330, expected reluctance to simply finish of the A343, etc.
The second one being the size of the B7E7, which was set really on the low end of its market to avoid it cutting into the more lucrative B777 sales.

To me, the first error lead Boeing to make the second one and the second one is now proving to be the weakness of the B7E7 Airbus is successfully playing on.

Both errors combined lead to some very devastating questions less than one year after the launch and well before its first flight of the B7E7: is a plane which is so easily matched by an update of the plane it is supposed to replace, really the best Boeing could come up with after ten years?





User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.

I don't understand why you keep saying "stop gap".

The 764 is a stopgap. The A350 is a $5.3 billion dollar new airframe project.

Just because Airbus doesn't agree that composites are this next step to the future doesn't mean its a stopgap. Its a great new plane with great potential, as is the 7E7.

N


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

some here keep on referring to the A350 as a stop-gap or an intermediate solution from Airbus, but mind you... the A330 was the standard, the B7E7 was designed to beat it (and does so), yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!

Introducing new technology is all very well, and the B7E7 might indeed be more technologically advanced than the A350 on some domains (although it can be argued new methods of doing the same things are not always automatically also more advanced methods) but what counts for the airlines is not whether the plane is the largest record breaker, but which will be the biggest money maker! (remember Concorde????)




User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6855 times:

How many original 737-100s were produced? Few.

How many variations on the original were made/are being made? Thousands.

Boeing has a corporate culture of "shooting first, aiming later".
It has worked in the past, can it work in the future?
Only time will tell.



Delete this User
User currently offlineKen4556 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

"yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!"

You are falling for the trickery of numbers. Figures lie and liers figure. Airbus is comparing the A350 and 7E7 on terms that, of course, favor the A350. But their comparisons are not accurate in the real world. It like comparing a 747-400 to a 717 on a operating costs per seat. You are comparing Apples and Oranges as they compared two aircraft with different seating capacities.

The A350 will nor beat the 7E7 when comparing exact specs and not adjusting the figures toi make one side look good, The 7E7 is a new airplane built around new technologies while the A350 is built around just better engines.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1910 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6719 times:

Nyc777:

The fact that Airbus was forced to respond to the 7E7 after it was offered is more proof of the 7E7 potential.

Airbus was not forced to respond. They would have done it sooner or later anyway. They just did it sooner.

The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not.

A350 will be a little more than stop gap measure. Just because it is not an all-new airframe does not mean it will not be successfull. Just look at next generation 737 family - would you call them stop gap measure in comparison to narrow-body Airbus family?

What we are dealing with here are two different philosophies. Both companies did a 180 on design radicalism. If I remember correctly, Boeing was publicly lashing out on Airbus for putting FBW on A320. Ten years later they came out with a 777 with - guess what? An FBW system. Now Boeing comes up with a radical next-generation aircraft design, based mostly on composites, while Airbus chooses to phase in composites gradually. I'm ready to bet money that rumored A30X "people mover" would be all composite airframe with all features 7E7 would introduce. Airbus Industrie simply chose to be the one playing it safe this time around, when it comes to introduction of large-scale composite airframes. Keep in mind that Boeing had to throw out the first composite structure they built from scratch (X-32s center wing), and eventually that cost them the JSF competition. I'm pretty sure they applied lessons learned from that mishap into 7E7 fabrication process. Airbus is sitting and watching just as Boeing did with the first commercial airliner application of fly by wire.

So instead of lashing out comments such as the ones above, You should objectively look at the entire aircraft design process history within last 20 years and apply what You'd learn to the A350 vs B787 issue instead of blindly siding with one manufacturer. I've said it before and I'll say it again: BOTH airplanes will be successfull, as much as You'd probably hate to see Airbus succeed with A350. There will be airlines who will buy 787, and there will be airlines who will buy A350. The real winner of this competition will come out once both airframes are in service with proven track record pertaining to true field performance, not some paper figures prepared by sales team members of either Airbus or Boeing.



Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call that a new reference!
Since when was Airbus so stupid they touted their aircraft as inferior to the competition?



Now you're really flying
25 Mdsh00 : yet the A350 will once again beat the B7E7 (check its performance spec. and operating costs per seat) so I would not call that a stop gap, I'd call th
26 Aviasian : Sadly, as is the case with almost every B7E7 discussion, this discussion about a possible JAL order has been hijacked and turned into another mindless
27 Mymiles2go : Regarding the commentL: "Mind you, the fact Boeing missed their own set sales target for the B7E7 is echoed allover" Let I re-mind you that the end of
28 Post contains images DfwRevolution : Boeing has a corporate culture of "shooting first, aiming later". Yes because Boeing certainly did that with the 777 Since when was Airbus so stupid t
29 BlackKnight : Was the statement by Boeing last summer about having 200 sales of the 7E7 by January 2005 responsible for the A350? Would Airbus have rushed the A350
30 RayChuang : I think JL will order the 7E7-3 primarily for Japanese domestic flights. I do think that JL is seriously looking at a pretty large 737-700/800 order s
31 Post contains images NumberTwelve : Also have heared that JL prefers the 7E7 but it's a rumour. Reason is that the US has lots of debts in Japan and China and so it's the easiest way for
32 PANAM_DC10 : JAL has confirmed they'll make a statement around 5pm Tokyo time today. 17 minutes to wait! In Hong Kong, Boeing's spokesman Mark Hooper declined to c
33 PVG : NO. 12: US HAS LOTS OF DEBTS IN JAPAN & CHINA, BUT ALSO BUYS THE MAJORITY OF BOTH COUNTRIES EXPORTS! ONE HAND WASHES THE OTHER IS A MORE APPROPRIATE C
34 NumberTwelve : is that a reason to cry ? If this would be the reason, Japan should have to buy A and B planes - so that's not the answer. [Edited 2004-12-22 09:08:44
35 Atmx2000 : Reason is that the US has lots of debts in Japan and China and so it's the easiest way for Japanese companies to buy US products. No the reason is tha
36 NumberTwelve : Atmx2000, I wanted to answer but don't do - because otherwise we get off topic. [Edited 2004-12-22 09:13:40]
37 PANAM_DC10 : They ordered 30 firm plus 20 options
38 Columba : I think you need to revise your definition of success. The 7E7 will be a success, the A350, a stop gap measure will not. With your words the 737NG wou
39 Atmx2000 : 50% marketshare in what range-capacity market? The 7E7 and A350 do not go up against each other directly, and only come close with the 7E7-9 and A350-
40 NumberTwelve : Atmx2000, I guess the 50 % marketshare is A/B in total. And this is realistic, even if A has little more than B in 2004 - it's 50 % marketshare.
41 Post contains links StickShaker : Official Boeing news release: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q4/nr_041222g.html JAL's requirement for 30 firm deliveries and 20 options will
42 FCKC : Nothing new here !!!!!!!! This order is not signed yet (it's only a MOU) , and will be in Spring 2005. So expect a large order of around 100 planes by
43 Post contains images Whitehatter : It's a no-brainer really as JAL will require replacements to upgrade the older 767s they are flying, some of which fly high-cycle operations. Likewise
44 N79969 : FCKC, We are not talking about Iberia here. Boeing can chalk up 30 firm orders + 20 options today and dot the i's and cross the t's in the spring.
45 Gigneil : Yes because Boeing certainly did that with the 777 Yes. They did. The 777-200A was not a popular airframe. It had horrible reliability problems, the d
46 Post contains images Nyc777 : This announcement in December is only for marketing , to try boosting the 7E7 sales up to the 200 as promised by Boeing. Oh and the Air Europa order w
47 Gigneil : Roll your eyes. I'm also positive its true. N
48 SANSCOTT744 : Its Official! The local news in San Diego has reported it and it is for 30 new 7E7 aircraft!
49 FCKC : Nyc777 And you know this how ? Because i have a brain.
50 Post contains images Yanksn4 : Watching you guys battle over whether the Boeing 7E7 is going to be better than the Airbus A350 is like watching the battles of who's better- Jeter or
51 Nyc777 : That's not even a battle...Jeter by far!!!!
52 BlackKnight : I think the true battle will be whether or not both the 7E7, and A350 succeed over the 747 and larger aircraft in diversifying the route system into m
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