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Lufthansa's Munich Hub  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 6120 times:

How is Lufthansa's second attempt to build a successful hub in Munich working? I know they tried this before and it did not work very well and much of the long haul operation was reassigned to Frankfurt.

ContinentalEWR

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5991 times:

They are increasing frequencies to Delhi this summer but dropping service to another destination, I think it's Dubai all together from Munich. This is the 2nd or 3rd go at an alternative hub for LH and my guess is that it will not work. Frankfurt is still one of the best hubs in Europe and LH really doesn't need to shift capacity from it as of yet, IMHO.

User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5973 times:

MUC has 2-class operarion to most places while FRA has also First. In Many cases, LH funnels lower classes via MUC in order to ease congestion at FRA. Both are full hubs.


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User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5970 times:

As far as your can hear in the public they are doing very fine. LH is one of the few airlines who managed to handle a dual hub system. Alitalia (MXP & FCO) and BA (GTW & LHR) tried the same but failed.
The new Terminal 2 in MUC was mainly financed by LH, so I think thea have a long term view on their MUC hub and it's not a short living experiement. In FRA they are heavily investing to accomodate the A380 (new maintenance hall, new first class terminal), so they are also commited to FRA. I don't think that LH would have done so much investment if their dual hub system wouldn't be succesfull.


User currently offlinePhaeton From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

I have the impression that it seems to be working relatively well. Terminal 2 here at Munich Airport was opened in June 2003 and seems to be operating smoothly. Capacity doesn't seem to be a problem yet other than in Frankfurt. Wolfgang Mayrhuber, Lufthansa's CEO, has said that he is quite satisfied with the operations at MUC.


"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.", Winston Churchill
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4941 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

From what I've seen, MUC seems to be doing well... LH serves many international destinations... I know that's not the only thing that makes a hub work, but I've heard nothing but accolades for the new terminal.

And a question: is LGW really a BA hub? I know that they base 737s and 777s there, but that is because of the Bermuda treaty? Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

Thanks,
Alex



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5936 times:

It should also be noted, that MUC already has more European flights (not sure if passengers too, but I think so) than FRA. There are also more German domestic flights in MUC than in FRA. But in terms of intercontinental flights mUC has only one quarter of FRA's flights.

User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5938 times:

JoFMO,

I guess that's the key. Many W/T/L class specials (ex-HEL at least) require connections via MUC. Thus, freeing up the longhaul capacity for FRA. IMHO makes perfect sense, although LH 772/782 with no F to Bangkok is kind of a bummer.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineGlobeTrekker From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 851 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Question: What did LH do different with FRA and MUC than BA with LHR and LGW and AZ with FCO and MXP to make it succeed?

Thanks, GlobeTrekker



The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

GlobeTrekker,

LHR/LGW=same city. Terrible hassle for pax or costs for the airline. Disaster.

AZ=AZ, nuff said.



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User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

The role of LGW for BA is to serve the secondary airports from London. Cities like Venice, Genoa, Ibiza, Nantes, Toulon, Vilnius, etc. True, it's a not a hub in the same style as LHR. There's less connecting and those that are connecting are more often shorthaul-to-shorthaul connections rather than shorthaul-to-longhaul (or vice versa) at LHR. Also, LGW serves many domestic cities that LHR doesn't. INV, JER, etc. Also, given the massive size of the London area, LGW can market itself to those in the southeast of London as an alternative to LHR to many major European business centres like Paris, Amsterdam, etc. BA, as much as they are an LHR-centric carrier, could not be the airline they are without LGW.

LH423

[Edited 2004-12-26 17:46:23]


« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

LH423,

Good point.

But many times BA has a LHR-LGW connection from HEL to secondary destinations with no overnight accommodations/transfers.

In my opinion, BA problem is the longhaul LGW flights not served from LHR.




Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineGlobeTrekker From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 851 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5848 times:

Thanks for the explanation guys.

Another question: Does LH serve certain routes from both cities? For instance AZ serves YYZ both from FCO and MXP. And are there any particular aircraft based only in FRA or MUC?

Thanks



The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

GlobeTrekker,

Not sure but perhaps AZ for example is MXP-FCO-YYZ. I have no clue. That's just the usual thing. LH has two well working hubs. No MUC-FRA-XXX flights...



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineLufthansa747 From Philippines, joined May 1999, 3201 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5811 times:

Further explanation - yes.

MUC may have an A346 to BKK and further (Y/C)
FRA has 744 to BKK and further to MNL (FCY)

General trend is that lower Y and D/Z is ususlly avail via MUC whili FRA may only have F/C/full Y avail.



Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
User currently offlineGlobeTrekker From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 851 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

Okay LH747,

Thanks!



The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5751 times:

LH have daily 744 services to DEL from FRA and as of now 3x weekly services from MUC to DEL on A343

User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2167 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

I can only judge from what LH and the German press say about MUC, and based on that I believe that MUC is doing fine and has a perspective as a hub. Also, remember that MUC is now Europe's 8th biggest airport - smaller than the likes of LHR, FRA, CDG and AMS; but bigger than some "primary hubs" like MXP, CPH or ZRH. Also, it has some interesting records: it is the one airport which has links to the highest number of European cities (not number of flights, but cities served), it has more LH European flights than FRA, aND accroding to MUC airport, no other airport serves more cities in Italy (although I hardly believe that... I believe there is no other foreign airport serving more cities in Italy):

Still, I feel that MUC is somewhat of a secondary hub for LH. True, more and more intl. destinations are being served from there, but look at the structure of the feeder traffic: hordes of RJs!!!!! I think this will only change (=be upgraded to real planes) once MUC's importance as a hub increases.

I wish them all the best, I like MUC airport a lot (going through there 1-2 times every week).


User currently offlineHorus From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 5230 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5554 times:

I'm surprised their MUC-Middle East services haven't worked out. They used to fly MUC-CAI and MUC-TLV with A320s but these were suspended in 2002. The MUC-DXB route will be axed next summer, which will leave THR as their only Middle Eastern destination.

Horus




EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

LH serves ORD from both. Or at least, they did in 2001, when I flew into FRA and out of MUC.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 788 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

LH serves quite a few cities in the US from both German hubs, right? JFK, MIA, ORD, LAX, SFO, BOS.

User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

@Horus:

Nothing to worry. Can't say about CAI, but TLV isn't served anymore because both allowed frequencies are used for FRA where they have a better feed from the USA, and that is what fills their Israel flights.
Dubai is axed every summer. Traffic to Dubai is lower in summer due to its weather, but it will come back in winter.


@all:

German forums are talking about additional daily flights to BRU, GVE, Genoa, Bologna, Trieste and Verona. So MUC is working quite well.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

MUC-DXB comes back in the winter, it is only a summer suspension.

I read an article in Aviation Week about LH's dual-hub system and it does seem to be doing quite well for LH.

LH has no choice but to operate a dual-hub system as FRA has reached capacity until additional runways can be constructed which will not happen for quite some time.

So the only choice for growth for LH would be to operate a 2nd hub and it seems to be doing quite well.

As others have mentioned, MUC has more domestic and more intra-Europe than FRA does, while FRA of course has much more intercontinental flights than MUC does.

Regarding AZ and MXP and FCO. It should be kept in mind that MXP is a relatively new facility.

I think AZ experimented with the dual-hub system but they probably realized that for an airline their size that it isn't practical to maintain two hubs.

MXP is a better facility than FCO and it is better geographically located for connections.

Milan is also the economic and business center of Italy.

This is why over the years, many routes and flights have been transfered from Rome to Milan. I think Alitalia will always maintain a significant number of flights from Rome as it is a large market and tourists want to get there. So it is being transformed more of an O&D destination while Milan primarily relies on connections.

I have heard Alitalia's connections to the Middle East from Milan are quite convenient and cheap.

Also unlike Lufthansa, Alitalia is not facing congestion restrictions and are able to continue to grow in Milan Malpensa, while Lufthansa is unable to do this with its Frankfurt hub.

In the case of British Airways. BA has no choice but to maintain a dual-hub system with LHR and LGW because of the Bermuda II restrictions. I have to say that it does create a nightmare for BA and its passengers.

Transfering from LHR to LGW is time consuming. I've had to do it once. Now thankfully the DEN flight goes to LHR, so I no longer have to do this.

BA has significantly reduced its European destinations and flights and transfered them to LHR. What BA is doing however is focusing LGW as an airport for lower-yielding leisure routes (GB Airways) to various destinations such as Palma de Mallorca and other low-yielding markets.

However, overall their presence in LGW has shrunken significantly. If ever the Bermuda II is modified or dropped, BA will definately want to transfer all its USA destinations in LGW to LHR and LGW will become strictly a secondary small hub for leisure destinations in Europe and will primarily cater the leisure market for people living in the UK.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4498 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

I've often wondered what the deal is with locating service to certain intercontinental destinations uniquely at MUC. If the yield argument brought forward by Lufthansa747 is true, then what are services to cities like CAN, KUL and SGN doing at MUC rather than at FRA?

I can see the deal with CLT and YUL, which have flights, albeit operated by code share parterns, at FRA as well. But if FRA is the airline's high-yield hub, then I would expect the sole service to CAN, KUL and SGN to operate from there. I understand that CAN is being repositioned next year, and SGN is rather low-yield, but KUL? If LH is planning to give MH a run for their money in Germany, they'll have to come up with better than a one-stop flight from a secondary hub.

So, what's the deal with the intercontinental part of the hub? Lufthansa has been blowing hot and cold about it, building the hub and then taking flights back again. DXB was not suspended last summer, JNB all of a sudden disappeared from this winter's plans, which also, for the first time in many years, lack daily SFO flights. I don't see the strategy...



User currently offlineTs-ior From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 3450 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5020 times:


AF should grow a second French hub, in the south, in NCE or LYS ?!


25 Beechcraft : hi, just a short note: MUCs growth in pax numbers was three percent higher than LH had expected for this year. sounds good to me Denis
26 JoFMO : @HB-IWC: The general strategy is to fly the intercontinental routes from FRA and saisonal adjustments are made in MUC. So you see new routes coming an
27 RayChuang : I think MUC is working well for Lufthansa because there is actually quite a lot of business travel in and out of that airport. You have to remember th
28 Airbazar : I had my first experience at transiting through LH's hub at MUC this year and I have to say, it is by far one the best, most convenient hubs I have ev
29 ChrisNH : Is service to Boston still available? As I recall LH used a A340 on the route, but that it was 'seasonal.' Is that still the case for resumption in su
30 JoFMO : Daimler is in Stuttgart and therefore more orientated to FRA. But the most important company in Munich might be Siemens. And beside that a lot of smal
31 Post contains images Airbazar : LH serves BOS from MUC in Spring, Summer and Fall forcing me to go through FRA for my annual Christmas trip to Europe
32 Econojetter : The general impression I have is that LH uses MUC as an overflow hub to ease congestion at FRA; that is in addition to MUC own O&D potential. I wonder
33 Mozart : Munich has the world's highest "market cap per capita" if that measure makes any sense. But what is behind it is the fact that many large companies ha
34 Tobi3334 : Hi I think in the long term future FRA will have one big problem: The increasing passenger traffic and the growing of the airport. Many many towns and
35 Post contains images JoFMO : @Mozart: You must have been living in Munich. But Munich is in no way the best place to live in Germany. That is (no offence!!) BullSh!t Only Munichsi
36 PA110 : Having flown back and forth via both FRA and MUC as a transit passenger, I would whole heartedly encourage LH to continue building up the MUC hub. The
37 Post contains images RayChuang : I think MUC also works to another advantage for LH: it is close enough by high-speed rail to many German winter resorts, and not much further is Switz
38 JoFMO : @RayChuang: German Railways are not very useful for travellers to MUC. It is in fact one of the big disadvantages when using MUC compared with FRA. MU
39 FraT : PA110, why is FRA an ordeal for transiting? Sure, the new Star Alliance Terminal in MUC is hard to beat but this terminal is less than two years old.
40 HB-IWC : I see that there is some discussion re. LH Asian routes. I have some questions of my own. It is a little puzzling to see that SIN (a Star hub) does no
41 Econojetter : Perhaps, after this capacity increase on FRA-SIN in March, the next increase in SIN service will be the resumption of MUC-SIN.
42 Airbazar : JoFMO I've never lived anywhere in Germany but if/when I do it will certainly be Munich. Best city in Germany is a relative term but for a non-German
43 JoFMO : @Airbazar: But like you told you never lived there. So it comes down to nothing more than positive stereotypes. I don't know what you exactly call 'cu
44 Musapapaya : hello! dont argue about cutural diversity or whatever.... just want to say, MUC is such a good airport that it is easy and fast when you want to conne
45 Munich : JoFMO it seems to me, you also never lived in Munich and especially I can't see, that the hipness leave Munich. Berlin tries to copy the munich-hip fr
46 JoFMO : @Munich: I de facto lived there some years ago. I commuted to Munich for week-ends. But it helps to observe the development of German cities from the
47 Airbazar : JoFMO I never lived there but I visit every year and have friends who live there so I do know a thing or two about the city. It's not just stereotypes
48 JoFMO : @Airbazar: But if you talk about geographical preferences it's just your own opinion. Maybe you should also ask some friends in Cologne, Berlin, Hambu
49 FlyinTLow : Just a different thought here, which has less to do with the hub system but rather why LH probably sees FRA as their main airport: Frankfurt is the Ge
50 JoFMO : @FlyinTLow: Your quick thoughts are exactly right. But also the fact that FRA's population base 200km around is more than twice as big as Munich's.
51 Johnnybgoode : as a matter of fact, FRA population base in a radius of 200km (could also be 2hrs by car, i´m not exactly sure) is bigger than the one of London or P
52 FlyinTLow : Also one very important factor with Frankfurt is the cooperation with Deutsche Bahn. Frankfurt is very much in the center of Germany, and using the IC
53 LH477 : Since this thread has mutated into German City preferences, Here are my fav's: 1. Berlin (Nothing says Germany like Berlin, Sorry Munich, Hamburg, Fra
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