Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Is Airbus Caught In A Downdraft?  
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5735 posts, RR: 48
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13023 times:

Commentary piece from Businessweek on Airbus. Enjoy.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_52/b3914067_mz054.htm


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 12851 times:

Well this could of course be the case.

However looking at
- the order backlog,
- the lack of competition in the 200-300 and >500 seat for the next 4 yrs,
- the recent successes in the <200 seat area and
- the modern product portfolio

I would seriously doubt it.

 Smile

I taste some envy in the article (because of the selective info included).


User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12752 times:

you can tell when something is doing very well...... there are so many rumours of how bad things are  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12730 times:

Or, maybe the facade is about to fall off and they'll need papa (EU) to come to the rescue!

User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12708 times:

It is also very interesting how "the bad" news/analysis re: Airbus tends to come from US sources.

User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12659 times:

I read BW all the time and they do have alot of good things to say about European companies and have had good things to say about Airbus in the past. They also belong to the same parent company that produces AviationWeek, so they have good sources.

What they fail to mention is that it doesn't really matter since the European governments will just bailout Airbus anyway if they get in trouble. Seems to me that they tried to bait Boeing into making a dumb investment in a new 747 and Boeing didn't take the bait and instead has reversed the tables on them.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12637 times:

Business Week has identified some issues that probably would concern real investors. Rather than usual Euro-whining/Blame America First smarmy remarks, how about addressing some of the actual points raised in the editorial?

User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12612 times:

"It is also very interesting how "the bad" news/analysis re: Airbus tends to come from US sources. "
--I think it's more revealing of the nature of European media than American media. Rule #1: Never, ever, EVER question the sacred (cash) cow. The U.S. media are as willing to report on woes at Boeing as they are at Airbus.

"you can tell when something is doing very well...... there are so many rumours of how bad things are "
--Or, anything even remotely hinting at negative regarding Airbus is written off in this way, and every "sky is falling" rumor about Boeing is regarded as Gospel truth by some on this board.

The article, overall, if you are able to look around your "Airbus is the Second Coming of Jesus" bias, is very complimentary of Airbus. It merely points out that the cost overruns, known to most "US sources" for some time, were only recently admitted to, and are worsened by the currency exchange rate as well as an incredibly expensive, 11th hour reaction to a Boeing product they will still not be able to match...sort of the same thing they had criticized Boeing for RE the A380/747X situation. They said the A330 was enough and then, a la Boeing, they reverse course and come out with a bunch of numbers attached to an image of an A330 with "A350" painted on it. While they are doing great, the backlog will be the only thing going for them in the short term...the "modern product lineup" continues to age as we speak, and will only be replaced by upgrades for the foreseeable future (what they criticized Boeing for for years) while Boeing continues to turn out fresh designs. The lack of competition in the 200-300 seat range was closed 6 months ago, if you hadn't noticed, and I don't see Boeing suffering in the 737 category either. In fact, a brand new, from scratch replacement is forthcoming.

Not everything is rosy at A or B...however, B seems to have bottomed out and is on the rebound, while A is hitting their crest, and is set to hit some rough spots...at least according to the people who make a career out of knowing about these things at Business Week.


[Edited 2004-12-27 16:46:32]


Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 851 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12581 times:



".....or they need papa (EU) to come to the rescue"

I dont think we need the pope´s approval, PVG!!  Nuts

Micke//SE  Laugh out loud



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12554 times:

Solnabo,

I suggest a reading "enrichment" course that are offered between high school and college.


User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12540 times:

Don't forget Boeing had to turn to Japan to develop the B7E7. Airbus is still doing most of the work itself, but if necessary Airbus can do the same and look to China or Russia to work (and invest) with them for a new plane.

Airbus has a backlog of 1500 planes, Boeing's backlog counts 1000 planes.

The A350 will endanger the B777 (Boeing's topseller at the moment).

The A320 seems to be winning all major orders.

Airbus can easily counter a B747Adv (if Boeing builds one) with an A387.

Boeing is trying to turn to the tide by making people believe things that are not true. If you look at the facts you know. On the other hand perception is everything...



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12525 times:

Airbus is undoubtedly in for some turbulence. Internal management bickering and 2 major programs underway is a lot foranyone to bite off. The same thing almost happened at Boeing 30 years ago when they developed the 747, 727 and 737 programs all pretty much on top of each other.

Cost overruns, delays, and engine problems on 747 almost put them under. Sounds like the type of cenario for Airbus. But I'm sure that they will go to France & Germany for a bail out.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineKnoxibus From France, joined Aug 2007, 259 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12515 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

"But these aren't the kinds of numbers investors like."

This is the conclusion of the article, but then again that does not mean that they will not keep on making good aircraft and continue selling them....

Another thing they did not emphasise on is the fact that the budget overrun on the A380 is "forecasted", i.e. that means the money is not spent yet, and that A might still provide some last-minute efforts to counter this overrun.

Personally, I do agree that B has the best strategy for the coming years, with a bigger revenue due to a higher number of widebodies being sold, and a new desing for single aisle from 2010.

I believe it's true that B is on the rebound and A is on the descending slope. But still, it's still going to be 50/50 or 60/40 from now on and everybody knowns that.



No matter what anybody tells you, words and ideas can change the world.
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5735 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12484 times:

Don't forget Boeing had to turn to Japan to develop the B7E7. Airbus is still doing most of the work itself, but if necessary Airbus can do the same and look to China or Russia to work (and invest) with them for a new plane

It's a Boeing plane and a Boeing design, by your logic then the 7E7 is also being developed byFinemeccania/Vought (a notable Airbus partner). Typical A supporter..trying to muddy crystal clear waters. By the way, the socialist govts. in Europe will never allow Airbus to outsource major structures work to Asia. Get real!

The A350 will endanger the B777 (Boeing's topseller at the moment).

Funny all you A supporters out there say it's a counter to the 7E7, now it's a counter to the 777NG...MAKE UP YOUR MIND, WILL YA!!!!

Airbus can easily counter a B747Adv (if Boeing builds one) with an A387.

Oh really? And also risk cannabalizing the A388 line? That's smart. And how much will this one go over budget and over weight, hmmm?


[Edited 2004-12-27 17:14:25]


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineCwapilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1166 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12461 times:

"Don't forget Boeing had to turn to Japan to develop the B7E7. Airbus is still doing most of the work itself, but if necessary Airbus can do the same and look to China or Russia to work (and invest) with them for a new plane."
--Ummmm.....how many countries (aside from subcontractors) are involved in developing and building Airbus planes? I thought this international involvement was part of the genius of Airbus, and that Boeing is doing well to emulate that practice.

--The A350 may or may not endanger any plane in the Boeing lineup. Again, all we have is some salesman's claims and a retouched A330 picture. The A320 won a couple of recent orders, and I guess that means Boeing should shut down the 737 line...

The point is, whereas Boeing was trapped in a mode of REACTING to Airbus for many years, Airbus is now entering a cycle of REACTING to Boeing. A350...half measure reaction to the 7E7. A387...REACTION to a 747 ADV. A32X upgrades, a REACTION to the smaller 7e7 derivatives. It doesn't mean they will crash and burn. It merely suggests that the "perception" that some would like everyone to have that everything is all roses at Airbus while Boeing HQ is about to be hit by an asteroid, isn't quite true.



Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25012 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 12404 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Oh, guys, take off your A or B hats.

The article isn't saying that Airbus is about to fail or Boeing about to triumph.

It isn't even written for airplane people - it is written for stock market investors.

It suggests that, for several reasons - the cost over-runs and the fall of the dollar v. the euro - shares in EADS may feel some downdraft.

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 12293 times:

Airbus can easily counter a B747Adv (if Boeing builds one) with an A387.

That's highly unlikely, the A388 is built for growth, not shrinking. In the mid-stages of development, like 1995-2000, Airbus was still talking about a shrunken A387, but that stopped as the design was finalized. The final A380 design is built with a heavier wing to make more stringent LHR noise requirements as well as stronger to allow for a stretched A389.

If the A387 were to be built, it would essentially be a double-shrink of the A389 rather than a single shrink of the A388. The economic comparisons between the A380 and 744 are dependent on the greater seating capacity of the A388, and if Airbus were to remove seats (A387) while Boeing plans to add seats (747-Adv), the economic performance of the A387 would be in question.

The A320 seems to be winning all major orders.

This, IMO, is more of a reaction to the 7E7 than anything. One of the reasons SQ sited for passing on the 7E7 was uncertainty at regional traffic flow because of an influx of LCC in South Asia. Who were flooding the LCC market with narrow-body aircraft at that time? Airbus with the A320..... not a coincidence IMO.

Airbus can't yet offer a true 7E7-3 competitor, but they can put A320/A321 into as many hands as possible.

Don't forget Boeing had to turn to Japan to develop the B7E7. Airbus is still doing most of the work itself, but if necessary Airbus can do the same and look to China or Russia to work (and invest) with them for a new plane.

Uhh.... Airbus has never "done most of the work itself." Airbus has been an aircraft final assembler, not builder, since the A300B2 rolled-out in the 1970s. Boeing is simply adapting the method Airbus has been using for the last 30+ years.  Big grin

However looking at
- the modern product portfolio


That "modern portfolio" is going to need some review in the next few years: the key product in Airbus family, the A320, will roughly 25 years old in 2010. Airbus cannot count on the success they have had for the last 2 years in the narrow-body segment to continue unchallenged for another 6 years.

I remind everyone that the 737NG was slaughtering the A320 from 2000-2002, then Airbus reversed the trend from 2003-2004. Since neither aircraft have undergone a major technology revamp, it is well within the realm of possibility to assume Boeing will "fight back" in the coming years. The upheaval within Boeing's sales team probably means this will happen sooner than later, IMO.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 12237 times:

Or, maybe the facade is about to fall off and they'll need papa (EU) to come to the rescue!

Actually, since papa (EU) is partly bankrupt (Germany), Airbus will instead turn to new papa China again and again and ask for some more political orders…  Wink/being sarcastic


It is also very interesting how "the bad" news/analysis re: Airbus tends to come from US sources.

The fact that negative forecasts on Airbus mainly come from the U.S. is such a surprise that it really makes me  Yawn


What they fail to mention is that it doesn't really matter since the European governments will just bailout Airbus anyway if they get in trouble.

Hm, then I suggest the German government should immediately go ahead and get some shares in EADS, since the German part in Airbus is only represented by a private company called DaimlerChrysler…  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Seems to me that they tried to bait Boeing into making a dumb investment in a new 747 and Boeing didn't take the bait and instead has reversed the tables on them.

And what would Airbus have gained from such a move? Kicking Boeing out of Business? No way. Airbus can be glad about Boeing not investing in a (re)new(ed) B747, as no sales will be taken away from the A380.


They said the A330 was enough and then, a la Boeing, they reverse course and come out with a bunch of numbers attached to an image of an A330 with "A350" painted on it.

No surprise here, the game’s called PR.


While they are doing great, the backlog will be the only thing going for them in the short term...

Who told you that? Nostradamus?  Wink/being sarcastic


the "modern product lineup" continues to age as we speak,

And so does Boeing’s (B737, B747, B777).


and will only be replaced by upgrades for the foreseeable future (what they criticized Boeing for for years) while Boeing continues to turn out fresh designs.

First of all Airbus will have an all-new design from 2006. Second, product updates can still be successful. Don’t forget the A320 has not seen a major update since its introduction. They could follow Boeing’s way with turning the B737 classic into a B737NG.
And apart from the B7E7, where’s another fresh design from Boeing?


I don't see Boeing suffering in the 737 category either. In fact, a brand new, from scratch replacement is forthcoming.

When?


at least according to the people who make a career out of knowing about these things at Business Week.

Excellent observation. It depends on the point of view.


But I'm sure that they will go to France & Germany for a bail out.

Why would they go to France and Germany? They are already there…  Wink/being sarcastic


By the way, the socialist govts. in Europe will never allow Airbus to outsource major structures work to Asia. Get real!

Socialist government? Strange, don’t we live in Europe of 2004? Is it possible that some individuals from the Land of the Free don’t really know what “socialism” means?  Wink/being sarcastic


Funny all you A supporters out there say it's a counter to the 7E7, now it's a counter to the 777NG...MAKE UP YOUR MIND, WILL YA!!!!

Make up your mind, will ya?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Oh really? And also risk cannabalizing the A388 line? That's smart. And how much will this one go over budget and over weight, hmmm?

Good question. Probably it will be as much over budget as the Sonic Cruiser was away from reality…  Wink/being sarcastic


The A320 won a couple of recent orders, and I guess that means Boeing should shut down the 737 line...

Huh? Who has made such a rather odd suggestion?


A387...REACTION to a 747 ADV.

As long as the B747 ADV is put on and off the drawing board every two months, there’s no need to react.


A32X upgrades, a REACTION to the smaller 7e7 derivatives.

Smaller B7E7 derivatives? Which ones?



Regards
Udo


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12156 times:

Good question. Probably it will be as much over budget as the Sonic Cruiser was away from reality…

Well Foregard was publically told us the A380 is over-budget, and for the last time, the Sonic Cruiser was a case study that Boeing was trying to judge customer opinions on. We know this because the 7E7 is basically the Sonic Cruiser technology incarnated.....

Smaller B7E7 derivatives? Which ones?

Around March 2004, Southwest Airlines, the single most influential 737NG customer, publically stated that they were very interested in a "737-sized aircraft with 7E7 technology." The 737NG will be reaching old-age by 2010-2015, WN will need an aircraft for growth and 737-300/500 replacement, and Boeing will have no other aircraft in design phase at this time. Many have speculated that a 737NG replacement (AKA 737-X) will come at this time.

Some sources (as in, not me but people who do this for a living) are indicating a new cross-section, and two wings to accomidate 90-220 seat variants with 2,000-4,000 nm range. It is speculation only, but it isn't absurd speculation either.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12100 times:

actually, what I found VERY interesting was this part of the article:

"Forgeard didn't make clear that even before the recently acknowledged cost overruns, development costs had soared far above the original $10.7 billion estimate, as the dollar has declined 30% against the euro since the project's start in 2000. On Dec. 14, EADS finally fessed up. The total price tag, including the overruns is at least $15.9 billion. "

yes....Forgeard said it might maximally be $2 billion, but I wouldn't be suprised if he was talking in 2000 dollars, this article brings it more to the point, and if true, it would turn out to be a HUGE subsidy and WAYYYYY overbudget!

we're talking possibly of $5.2 billion dollars overbudget........oh well..there is always the European taxpayers to bail this project out..  Big grin



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 12051 times:

oh well..there is always the European taxpayers to bail this project out..

I'm sure you can explain to me how a bankrupt country like mine would be able to pay for that? And why should the German taxpayers pay at all - isn't it DaimlerChrysler which is the German part in EADS? And last time I checked, DaimlerChrysler was a private company.
Now I wanna hear some ideas, not just the usual "European taxpayer will do this will do that blabla"...


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineLON-CHI From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 11997 times:

And why should the German taxpayers pay at all - isn't it DaimlerChrysler which is the German part in EADS?

That's a question you should ask your goverment if/when Airbus requests a bailout/subsidy.


User currently offlineAirways6max From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Airbus is flying sky-high so I don't believe they have any problems now.

User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4118 posts, RR: 90
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11687 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

I'm sure you can explain to me how a bankrupt country like mine would be able to pay for that?

Since when has Germany been bankrupt?



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11594 times:

Traders love Business Week. Articles like this one cause investors to move money in and out of stocks and bonds, generating commissions.

So what did this article really say?

1) Forgeard might have a new title by the Jan 18th A380 rollout.

2) The A350 may replace the A330. Not will, may. Customers will decide that, no one else. If the A330 continues to be popular, you can bet Airbus will still build them.

3) The A350 can't be developed out of cash flow due to cost overruns with the A380. So let's be realistic where the development costs will come from. Either subsidies or loans.

4) Airbus' R&D costs are about 5% higher than Boeing's.

5) Airbus leads Boeing in aircraft deliveries. It doesn't say if it leads Boeing in wide-body vs. narrow-body aircraft or in profitable vs. loss-leader aircraft or in total number of seats put into the air.

6) A380 costs are about 50% higher than originally forecast, partly due to the dollar's decline against the euro.

The article also owned up Airbus to some of the hot air they've been blowing regards to the A330 vs. the 7E7.

It also acknowledges Forgeard has built a "powerful company in Airbus."

Aircraft building carries a lot of risk. BusinessWeek is pointing out what risks Airbus currently faces. Nothing more, nothing less. What you do with that information is what makes markets move.

I don't see any jealousy, or any of the other things people in this thread have stated to fan the A vs. B flames.

It's all in the interpretation, and what you do with that information that's of benefit to the people this magazine is written for. And it's not investors, it's traders.

Cheers, AeroWesty



International Homo of Mystery
25 Post contains images NumberTwelve : G'day, PANAM, you're right: we Germans are inclined to cry when we are not as successfull as we've been years ago. And guys, don't lets talk about so-
26 Post contains images Udo : hat's a question you should ask your goverment if/when Airbus requests a bailout/subsidy. That’s no answer to my question – you just re-bubble the
27 Sllevin : I think a strong undercurrent is that Airbus has handled its PR poorly (we're talking about on the investment side, not the sales side). Airbus hedged
28 Mdundon : If you look at the last issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology, the real danger to Airbus is hubris. They desperately want a slice of the growing
29 PlaneSmart : The key difference the article highlights is the gap in margins per airframe between the 2 companies. With falling production rates for 747, 767 and 7
30 FCKC : As somebody said in this thread , the A350 will NOT replace the A330 (referring to the Airbus announcement) , but will be built on the same assembly l
31 Gigneil : That's a question you should ask your goverment if/when Airbus requests a bailout/subsidy. And how, exactly would they do that? I don't disagree, Airb
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : "based on your comments, I would be surprised if you could show Europe on the map" maybe you need to learn a bit of history and learn who the "Jacobin
33 Gigneil : Launch aid. 33% or less of the development cost of any new airframe program. Has nothing to do with the general cash funds of the company, the sale pr
34 LON-CHI : Launch aid. Shifts the risk from Airbus to the European governments because the manufacturer isn't required to repay if the aircraft program is unsucc
35 Airways45 : For the first time since Airbus entered the market in 1974, Airbus and Boeing will have a new product on offer to airlines at the same time. The 7E7 a
36 PlaneSmart : LON-CHI "Launch aid. Shifts the risk from Airbus to the European governments because the manufacturer isn't required to repay if the aircraft program
37 Reggaebird : You may ridicule this but...I dare say that the big shock to Airbuse is going to come when Boeing debuts either a dramatically new and efficient desi
38 Muttley35 : And for everyone other than Nyc777, every week there is a at least one A versus B thread posted.Usually on the A side we have the blindly Euro biased
39 Glideslope : Wait until China begins to build their own Commercial Jets. A vs B vs C.
40 StickShaker : The product lifecycles of aircraft are certainly shortening The launch of the 7e7 together with the 350 will likely shorten the careers of several ai
41 A340600 : If Airbus hadn’t launched the A350 then the A330 would have gone the way that the 767-300ER went compared to the A330. I couldn't disagree more. Thi
42 A380900 : Well maybe the Earth is flat, up is down, and Airbus is doing bad and Boeing's airliners' division is on the rebound! Well sorry to disappoint all the
43 Nyc777 : Muttley35, Never assume anything. I didn't provide the link to the article to start a A v. B war as you alledge. I include the word "enjoy" in all my
44 Post contains links A330Jamaica : Every now and then, I feel the need to chime in and illustrate the uselessness of bickering over which aerospace company is doing well and which is no
45 Ken777 : Airbus does have some issues to deal with. The 380 cost overruns are significant, especially when sales of the 380 have probably been in US Dollars -
46 StickShaker : The challenge for A at this time is to get their costs in order, especially the costs per plane delivered. At the same time they need to have hedging
47 Atmx2000 : Maybe Airbus will move some of its production to eastern Europe eurozone countries to reduce its labor costs. It will secure some loyalty from a regio
48 FriendlySkies : If Airbus hadn’t launched the A350 then the A330 would have gone the way that the 767-300ER went compared to the A330. I couldn't disagree more. Thi
49 Widebody : The article makes some good points, but once again it seems this subsidy issue gets dragged into everything on this site. Let me state a simple fact a
50 Sebolino : Airbus in a downdraft is the daydream of some Americans for sure. Airbus is a real nightmare for ultra-nationalists Americans who refuse that a single
51 Keesje : The A330 vs 767 and 7e7 vs 7e7 comparison lacks any foundation. The fact the 7e7 has the same dimensions as the A330 should give food for thought..
52 Warren747sp : Why does it matter. European government and taxpayer will just cough up more money willingly to maintain their perceived superiority over America. W
53 Nyc777 : The Airbus launch aid is legal according to the WTO agreement. The agreement is not a WTO agreement. It is a bilateral agreement between the US and th
54 Rj111 : The risks don't end there. Industry watchers think the A350 will doom one of Airbus' best-selling planes. The A330, which seats 250 to 350 passengers,
55 Sebolino : Why does it matter. European government and taxpayer will just cough up more money willingly to maintain their perceived superiority over America. It'
56 Post contains images Glideslope : I'll tell ya, things are going to become very interesting. This Airbus downdraft (nice verbiage) is going to bring out the best in the EU. I can hear
57 Widebody : My apologies NYC777, 1992 bilateral. And what will allow the WTO to rule that the aid is illegal? Which rules make the aid illegal?
58 Nyc777 : The WTO has already ruled that subsidies given to Canadian and brazilian manufacturers of RJ to be illegal I believe. The WTO has often ruled against
59 Danny : WTO may rule whatever they want but who cares? No one respects their rulings anyway.
60 N79969 : Widebody, The EU did not challenge Japan's aerospace subsidy program on the two occasions that EU firms received money for aerospace R&D. Now that Boe
61 Widebody : NYC777, But illegal according to what. The 1992 bilateral allowed them. The 1994 WTO agreement did not. However it was accepted the 1992 agreement too
62 N79969 : Widebody, The same absolutely does not apply for Boeing. If EADS, Nestle, Alstom, Siemens, Smurfit, you-name-it builds a factory in Washington state,
63 Nyc777 : Hear, Hear N79969, Well Said. This will add you to my Resp. Users list!
64 RayChuang : Let's face it folks. The only reason why Airbus is still around is the fact that they are being propped up by strong sales of the A320 Family planes a
65 Post contains images Danpio : Take away the Japanese contribution and the Washington state aid and Boeing doesn't have a new aircraft either. Now, I know nothing in detail about th
66 Atmx2000 : Danpio is exactly right. The tax breaks from Washington state aren't launch aid, it's merely an incentive to stay in expensive state. The fundamental
67 NumberTwelve : As I mentioned, it seems as if you want to talk A dead. Fortunatelly A doesn't know that it dies - in the brain of some A'netters. You're always talki
68 Xkorpyoh : Bottomline: A380 is the new Concorde. Built to enhance nationalistic pride regardless of the costs or financial success. During the early development
69 PlaneSmart : I live in a country presently that at various times in the last 15yrs has had exports to the USA curtailed by illegal tariffs. Butter, lamb, beef, ste
70 Agill : Xkorpyoh: Do you honnestly belive that a company would risk everything just so they can impress the americans???
71 RJ111 : Xkorpyoh, Instead of comparing the A380 to Concorde, compare it to the original 747. At the time it was similarly oversized, and airlines like AA and
72 FriendlySkies : Xkorpyoh: Do you honnestly belive that a company would risk everything just so they can impress the americans??? I do. Airbus said they were making th
73 Xkorpyoh : agill: not to impress the americans but to increase ("enhance") the morale ("pride") of their citizens...to do all possible to retain the "title" of "
74 Agill : FriendlySkies: Maybe they can think two thoughts at the same time. Maybe both hub-spoke and p2p can exist.
75 FriendlySkies : FriendlySkies: Maybe they can think two thoughts at the same time. Maybe both hub-spoke and p2p can exist. That would be corporate embarrassment. Nume
76 Rj111 : They also made it very clear that they thought Boeing's idea of a point-to-point flight (7E7 ideaology) was bogus and wrong. Airbus said that!? becaus
77 Warren747sp : Actually Sobelino, I admire the French way of business just check out the Universal Vivendi debacle. It's just a matter of time sooner or later. W
78 Gigneil : The only reason why Airbus is still around is the fact that they are being propped up by strong sales of the A320 Family planes and by more or less on
79 PlaneSmart : A38 will never sell in the same numbers as the 7e7 or A33/34/35. I don't think many on this site expected it would. Many airports are slot limited in
80 Post contains images Sebolino : Actually Sobelino, I admire the French way of business just check out the Universal Vivendi debacle. Oh yeah, I forgot that only French companies bank
81 Oftwftwoab : RayChuang: "The only reason why Airbus is still around is the fact that they are being propped up by strong sales of the A320 Family planes and by mor
82 Post contains images Airways45 : Hi everyone, Here's a couple of comments that nobody has mentioned yet: 1) Airbus development costs on the A380 will be 20% more than initially expect
83 Nyc777 : How can you possibly equate subsidies given by European govts. with za decision by a public company to decide who supplies them with airplanes. The US
84 Post contains images Airways45 : Hi Nyc777: All I was trying to point out was that whilst I am not defending Airbus or supporting Boeing (it's not my job to do either), the forum here
85 Airways45 : What do people think the negative impact for Boeing will be of opening up the Airbus subsidies can of worms? Suppliers to Airbus also often supply Boe
86 Sebolino : Airways45, You're right, but the problem is more symbolic than economic. The pride of some senators has been seriously hurt by the domination of Airbu
87 Scorpio : FriendlySkies, I do. Airbus said they were making the A380 because they believed that in the future, airlines would prefer transporting massive number
88 OldAeroGuy : Airways45 The first exclusive supplier deal between an airline and an airframe builder was an agreement between USAir and Airbus. The Boeing deals wit
89 Post contains links DfwRevolution : That makes no sense. At all. Airbus never said that there would be no need for a plane the size and range of A350 / 7E7 I have no interet in this topi
90 Scorpio : The first exclusive supplier deal between an airline and an airframe builder was an agreement between USAir and Airbus. Incorrect. There was no exclus
91 Sjoerd : Of course Airbus didn't praise the B7E7, what would you expect ? They just tried to make their product look best, like any manufacturer of anything wo
92 PlaneSmart : Reacting to a possible US-based airline order for the A30, B's sales teams used preferential access to the full model range / exclusivity deals to def
93 JoFMO : THERE IS NO MARKET FOR A LONG RANGE P2P PLANE TODAY!! The 7e7 is built for smaller hub and spoke routes. There are no P2P routes aver the Atlantic, th
94 OldAeroGuy : Scorpio, I guess we'll need to say we disagree about the exclusive nature of the USAir-Airbus deal. You must have your sources as I have mine. I have
95 Atmx2000 : Of course there are no long range point to point flights and everything is hub. There won't be point to point travel until you connect two spoke citie
96 Scorpio : OldAeroGuy, A few things to consider: -It is mentioned in not a single official publication, including Airbus' original press release (which is still
97 Dreamcraft : I am always amazed when folks 'holla' out in this forum that they are tired of the A vs. B wars and debates. But look at how long this thread is and i
98 Gigneil : Nah. Blogs are personal. N
99 N79969 : I am not sure what supplier exclusivity contracts have to do with anything anyway. It is a contract to between two private parties for product procure
100 PlaneSmart : B had exclusivity contracts in place before or concurrent with the Eastern A300 order. Back to the thread topic. If you are winning 60% plus of the co
101 PVG : If you are winning 60% plus of a competitively fought market by selling at or below cost, it will catch up to you when your competitor forces you to s
102 Scorpio : If you are winning 60% plus of a competitively fought market by selling at or below cost *yawn* Please show us anything that even looks like proof tha
103 Leskova : Well, PVG, isn't it fortunate then that neither Airbus nor Boeing are doing that?
104 Post contains links NoUFO : The report provides some good aspects, and some of them are echoed by German weekly Die Zeit (http://www.zeit.de/2005/01/T-Airbus). The BW article say
105 PVG : You're right, I've made my point and should stop it already. However, please show me something (besides publicly released info.) that shows that Airbu
106 Post contains images Leskova : PVG, when you say "besides publicly released info", then what are you expecting? Internal Airbus memos? Internal government documents? If EADS' financ
107 Oftwftwoab : PVG: Airbus' two shareholders are EADS (a Dutch company) and BAe (a UK one). EADS is quoted on the Paris, Madrid and Frankfurt stock exchanges. BAe is
108 PlaneSmart : I was agreeing that it is more likely A is in a downdraft, and B in the opposite direction, but nearly every discussion comes down to A v B. I'm relat
109 Sebolino : You're right, I've made my point and should stop it already. The only point you made is that you want that Airbus is losing money. However, I doubt yo
110 Aither : This is what i call a very oriented article ! Nice to mention France in the first paragraph... Just another US bullshit article.
111 N79969 : Aither, Why don't you point out what exactly is bullshit? The article makes an argument and provides supporting data. You ought to do the same.
112 Aither : N79969, OK, first it's about the way you write/organize an article. Obviously the author is anti Airbus. First he creates the impression the company i
113 N79969 : Aither, You really have not backed up your call of bullshit. If a leader of Lionel Jospin's stature is promising Airbus the resources to "win" against
114 Aither : Lionel Jospin comments are years old, irrelevant, were put out of context and he is not an active politician anymore. About conditioning sales your st
115 PVG : Gentlemen: 1) The French government is still a large holder of EADS/AIRBUS shares. In Germany, it is common for the government to have a large say in
116 Leskova : In Germany, it is common for the government to have a large say in the dealing of its' major public corporations (Banks and DC). What on earth are you
117 Post contains images Scorpio : So, with friendly governments, it is easy to hide accounting irregularities. Therefore, I do not believe the publicly released information from this c
118 Post contains images NumberTwelve : Scorpio, in another topic it's told that the A300 lavatories are smelling badly. Maybe the reason for the "downdraft" is because AA isn't able to clea
119 PlaneSmart : The logic promoted for A's increase in A32 sales, and success rate against the 737, is A must have slashed prices. This is a view promoted by B, US po
120 PVG : Leskova, Try to buy a majority share in a well known large German Bank, Phone Company, Auto Producer, Steel Mill, or Electronics firm as a foreign inv
121 NumberTwelve : PVG: "If you still don't understand, suggest that you go back to school." Congratulations, PVG, seems as if You've eaten brillancy with spoons. If you
122 Post contains images Leskova : PVG, you know, you should really work in the media - take one or two specific cases and convert them into a general rule... good job... Nonetheless, a
123 PVG : You asked me what I was talking about and I gave you several examples. I did not say that it only happens in Europe, this does happen everywhere for t
124 Aither : PVG, where can i buy shares of AVIC ? Thanks
125 Racko : Daimler-Benz - Chrysler : On the one Side a highly profitable and prosperous Company, on the other side an almost-bankrupt company. Who's gonna buy wh
126 Nyc777 : Lionel Jospin comments are years old, irrelevant, were put out of context and he is not an active politician anymore. Just because he's not in power a
127 OldAeroGuy : Scorpio, With regard to A/B exclusivity agreements, please refer to the May 21, 1997 New York Times article by Edmund L. Andrews on Karl von Miert. Mr
128 Scorpio : OldAeroGuy, With regard to A/B exclusivity agreements, please refer to the May 21, 1997 New York Times article by Edmund L. Andrews on Karl von Miert.
129 PlaneSmart : Sorry OldAeroGuy, your timing is out. Exclusive / preferential supply deals were in place before / shortly after Eastern ordered the A300. More formal
130 OldAeroGuy : Interesting, PlaneSmart. I'm unaware of these agreements. Can you provide anymore details? Who were the airlines involved and which one breached the a
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Is Airbus Registered In Netherlands? posted Fri Jul 16 2004 23:32:42 by Ruscoe
FI: Is Airbus In Danger Of Being A One Trick Pony? posted Tue Nov 28 2006 15:45:28 by Leelaw
DHL Airbus A300, Is It Still In Baghdad? posted Fri Jan 27 2006 16:11:20 by Airevents
After AC Cancellation, Is Airbus #1 In 2005? posted Sun Jun 19 2005 22:24:52 by A380900
Is Airbus In Crisis Mode? posted Mon Apr 25 2005 18:17:47 by Clickhappy
Why Is Airbus So Popular In The Middle East? posted Fri Jan 28 2005 13:18:03 by Terre
What Is The Oldest Airbus Still In Service posted Sun Nov 23 2003 23:43:09 by FlyPIJets
Who Is The Largest Airbus Operator In The World? posted Sun Dec 9 2001 03:42:28 by Timbo
When Is Airbus Going To Update Their Website? posted Sun Nov 12 2006 05:40:44 by Dougloid
Is This Possible In A 747? posted Sun Nov 5 2006 20:40:34 by Cumulus