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AerLingus& Iberia Should Be Kicked Out Of Oneworld  
User currently offlineQantasclub From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 757 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9184 times:


http://www.airlinequality.com/news/231204-iberia.htm

Totally agree with this editorial. Alliances are all about connections, but just as importantly, consistency of product. There should be a minimum standard, but these carriers have fallen beyond that a long time ago.




Long Haul is the only way to go
64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAerlingus330 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9134 times:

If you have forgotten...the point of an airline alliance isnt only to help the costumer and have better connections, its also to help airlines.

Oneworld Alliance is HELPING Aer Lingus and Iberia...These airlines are in a down peroid at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld...

regards
aerlingus330



Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9104 times:

The main point of the topic is arguable, but...


The point of an airline alliance isnt only to help the costumer and have better connections, its also to help airlines.


What? It seems you are mistaken between a charity program and businesses. In alliances, airline members participate in an [mostly] equal give-receive situation; even under that many companies have had entire histories of "cheating" on their partners within alliances.


Iberia...These airlines are in a down period at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld...


Would you care to explain exactly in what is this IB situation you are talking about? [forget about service - subjective thing] I'm anxious to hear about that...  Yeah sure





SOUTHAMERICA

[Edited 2004-12-30 06:59:01]

User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4967 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8974 times:

"Iberia...These airlines are in a down period at the moment, but will pull up with the HELP of Oneworld."

Actually IB is doing very well regardless of Oneworld



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineA340-600 From France, joined Aug 1999, 93 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8915 times:

Iberia is one of the most profitable airline in Europe.
I don't understand the down period for Iberia Aerlingus330. Are you sure that you are not thinking about another airline?


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8899 times:

OK it's probably because Iberia and Aer Lingus don't have free meals on regional flights. But American doesn't have either, from next years on even on 6 hour transcontinentals, flights of a length in which Iberia and Aer Lingus would still feed you and give free booze. So should American be kicked out as well?


nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineA340-600 From France, joined Aug 1999, 93 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

Two economy class should exist  Smile with meal / without meal.

I have used Iberia last summer, that's true that Cabin Crew are not kind/helpfull... and they can only improve. But to pay 100€ to fly Paris-Valencia instead of 300€ with Air France was nice. Aircraft cabin was nice and seats confortable.


User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8839 times:

With all due respect, I think you're all rather off the mark here.

Aer Lingus first of all probably will leave oneworld, as it contributes little to the alliance and British Airways and the other European partners are increasingly agitated by the blatant LCC-type marketing and pricing strategies the airline is using.

Iberia on the other hand contributes enormous benefits to the oneworld alliance. While Iberia's coach class product is definitely subpar, remember, they do have a business and first class product that are competitive. Their first class actually features elegant, luxurious sleeper seats on a par with those offered by other alliance members. Iberia's route network furthermore is a tremendous asset to oneworld. With Iberia, American Airlines and LAN as members, oneworld is clearly the alliance of choice when it comes to Latin American connections. Take away Iberia, and you suddenly have a much weaker competitive position. Also, while Aer Lingus is largely superlative as an addition to the combined route network, if you were to take away Iberia you'd suddenly see a much less useful European route network resting on the strength of the London hub only, as Helsinki is too geographically isolated to serve as an efficient alliance hub for the largest intra-European markets.

Also, remember, Iberia's service is not that much worse than American's. AA under the incompetent management of Gerald Arpey continues to allow their product differentiation slide through constant, pointless cutbacks in service. While AA unquestionably is superior to Iberia, the margin of superiority is waning, with the elimination of MRTC, cutbacks in meal service, et cetera.

So taking a step back, by the standard argued here, oneworld would have to change radically. In addition to Aer Lingus and Iberia, if one was to exclude all airlines from the alliance that have sub-optimal service you'd also have to axe AA (for reasons mentioned above) and QANTAS, the latter of which has allowed their product quality to become erratic following the failure of Ansett. That would leave you with an alliance consisting of British Airways, Finnair, Cathay Pacific and LAN, in short, not much of an alliance.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8746 times:

Since when does IB have a First class product?? I thought that they got rid of it since it was not really a money maker??


User currently offlineA340-600 From France, joined Aug 1999, 93 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

What a such big explanation to say that Iberia has an important place in the alliance with South America market.

You really think that :
as Helsinki is too geographically isolated to serve as an efficient alliance hub for the largest intra-European markets.
because you think that Madrid and Barcelone are well located for intra-European markets?
The best location for intra-European flights are not :
FRA/AMS/CDG/GVA/ZRH?

The other point that I don't understand :
With all due respect, I think you're all rather off the mark here.
What was wrong(except Aerlingus330 sorry)?


User currently onlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8719 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

@ QantasClub:

I already mentioned this problem in this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1880665/6/


FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineAlpere1 From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8708 times:

So far, IB has First class product in most of their intercontinental routes
Soon they will get rid of it for a new business-first class, a smart move IMHO
IB is one of the most profitable airline in Europe right now, a well-run business, efficient, with an extensive route network. Along with it's partners BA and AA, they make the hardcore of the Oneworld alliance.


User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8685 times:

You think that IB has more importance in the OneWorld family than CX or QF?? I strongly beg to differ.
CX is the only Asian carrier in the alliance and as a result, to loose them would be a great loss for OW.
QF has a firm grip on the US-Australia/Pacific market along with excellent feeder traffic for BA,CX,LA (Both in Australia and abroad).
Personally I think that IB can be replaced. Highly unlikely, but they can. BA is the essential link in Europe, AA in the states, LA in South America, CX in Asia and QF in the pacific. Loose one of these carriers, and the alliance would certainly be missing something.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8635 times:


Along with it's partners BA and AA, they make the hardcore of the Oneworld alliance.


Hmmm. I don't think so. I would say BA,AA, and CX are the core.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineQantasclub From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8620 times:


WGW2707,

I agree that Iberia has extensive route strength in south America and this is it's ONLY contribution to Oneworld.
We clearly differ on opinions regarding the standards of inflight service. I honestly don't see any difference between AA and IB in terms of service or product-both are equally bad.
However, your comparison of Qantas to AA (gasp!) and also your suggestion that it's service has declined since Ansett collapsed could not be further from the truth. Here's why:
I will be the first to admit that the service at Qantas is not THE best in the world, but it is definedtly comparable to BA and just behind SQ and CX, but clearly streets ahead of any US carrier. How can you compare a carrier that has fully installed flat beds in F and J class, PTVs in Y, gourmet chef designed meals in all classes, a generous inflight amenity bag even in Y, overall very friendly and professional cabin service (all of which have appeared AFTER the collapse of Ansett) to AA? Not in the same league, sorry.

The bottom line is, Iberia (and by implication AA since they tend to offer the same WALMART style service) and Aer Lingus have lowered the overall product standards at Oneworld and if not for their route contributions, should be expelled.





Long Haul is the only way to go
User currently offlineWGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8606 times:

Of course Qantasclub if you do ban Iberia and Aer Lingus it's only logical to remove AA (and in my opinion, QF) as well. If you do that, what's left of the alliance? Just a few super-premium carriers and one behemoth.

Also, it should be noted that both American and United offer fully flat beds in first class, and AA as far as I know has PTVs on some of their long haul aircraft, so you really can't fault the US airlines in that regard. Furthermore, remember, many passengers actually dislike PTVs, so that is not a universal attraction by any means.

-WGW2707


User currently offlineBazzaldonbond From Ireland, joined Feb 2001, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Aerlingus doesnt need one world as its a joke in itself BA have huge prices for flights AA have poor service CX is only useful if your going to the east .In this current market customers want the best bang for there buck and in Ireland that means cheap AIRFARES i.e. sub 350 euros to the states sub 100 euros around europe and you simply cannot get that with AA or BA at the moment.Aerlingus are making a profit and the customers are voting with there feet they are flying with EI .If Aerlingus was kicked out tomorrow i dont think they would lose too much sleep.The LCC works for them and look around the rest of the world how many other carriers are reducing costs and dropping this and that from there inflight service or starting up a lost cost arm.This buisness is like any other the aim of each carrier is to make a profit Aerlingus is doing that.

User currently offlineIberiaN From Spain, joined Sep 2003, 166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8493 times:

Dear TBCITDG and Qantasclub,
I can't understand your point of view. First of all, Does IB only help Oneworld with its Southamerican flights? I COULDN'T DISAGREE MORE. What about IB's codeshares with AA, BA, LAN, Finnair and Cathay Pacific in flights all over Spain and Europe? What about connections to AMS helping Cathay Pacific to take its passengers to Spain? And BA's flights to South and Central America? And also codeshares with BA MAD-LHR? What About AA JFK/ORD/MIA-MAD IB codeshare flights?. Finally, I wonder if Qantas helps OW so much as IB does.
Thanks
Emilio



Has decidido puntualidad, has decidido Iberia ;)
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8456 times:

IB is and will be successful [and profitable] inside or outside OW.



User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8435 times:

http://www.airlinequality.com/news/231204-iberia.htm

This should work better...



User currently offlineArcano From Chile, joined Mar 2004, 2407 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8399 times:

Two economy class should exist with meal / without meal.

Hi
A340! You know Lan Chile did that in the mid 80s (as well as Ladeco at the same time); they offered a super cheap fare for economy if you accepted to seat in the back of the cabin and take no meals... You could save up to 50% of the price... The result? a total failure, the people felt it was very bad idea, bad taste to make such an "outrageous" discrimination in the same cabin. Both airlines stopped that a couple of months after the beggining.


What about IB's codeshares with AA, BA, LAN, Finnair and Cathay Pacific in flights all over Spain and Europe?
Hi Iberia N: Although I don't think IB should be out of OW, your argument does not sustent an airline for belonging to an alliance; There are many code-shares between airlines not mambers of the same alliance, as AM-Transportes Aereos Meridionais (Brazil)">JJ-AA; LA-KE; LA-AM; etc.

As for the main topic, it's true, complaints about IB and AA and their service are oftenly heard, but what the alliance wins by having them is much better than getting rid of them, with the connections and network enhance effect it brings...
And not sure about Air Lingus, but Iberia does have excellent conections and partnership with LA and AA, which would take a while before fully replacement...

Regards )( Arcano



in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773 and 380
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

WGW2707: you would ban QF from oneworld when banning IB and EI?
can you explain me, why?
Network or standard?

If network, MAYBE you are right, but if standard - why banning QF? I would agree that AA has to be banned then.



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineMarara From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8357 times:

While i dont want to get into which airline is more important to OW. I would like to point a few things out to IberiaN.

BA codeshare on QFs services to all Australian Capitals. They have a JSA agreement on the Kangaroo Route which provides both BA and QF a large amount of feed in their respective markets.

QFs has a strong hold on the AU-US route, AA has its code on all of these routes. AA and QF are very close -> QF taking up AAs 73H slots instead of teh UA320s it was very interested in.

QF has codeshares on AY's HEL flights, LA's SCL, CX's ROM and hundreds of BA and AA flights from their hubs.

Just because QF does not work very closely with IB doesnt mean it is not a important member of OW.



I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
User currently onlineFlying Belgian From Belgium, joined Jun 2001, 2391 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8275 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

IMO, IB has a contribution to OneWorld with its extensive and excellent network in South America. It's also a major player in Southern Europe, much stronger than AZ is for instance.

IB would just need to make that little effort to improve its staff friendliness... That's all people seem to ask. But one can't rule IB out...

As far as EI is concerned, it's in a very weak position with BA across.

The rest of the debate (AA, QF,...) is pure useless wind.

FB.



Life is great at 41.000 feet...
User currently offlineBmed From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 860 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8255 times:

Well, aer lingus should have kept a couple of rows of business class seats and reduced their fares for them. A national carrier that's all low cost is a shame. If ryanair ever introduce transatlantic flights then air lingus will disappear.
I've never understood why aer lingus don't fly to Asia even if it's via LHR. I'm sure that the Irish would like to fly the whole way with their own carrier instead of a foreign one?



Living the jetset life! No better way to be
25 Iberia340600 : All I can really do is laugh. Not at this thread, but at that website Airlinequality and Skytrax. I brought the other news article about Iberia to the
26 Aa767400 : In order of service, I would say that it would go like this, from worst to best. EI IB AA AY LA BA QF CX Aer lingus, has gone down all the way in term
27 RCS763av : IB out of OW???? Then who would feed the Euro network from Latin America....BA with their pathetic 3x weekly flights and horrid schedule!
28 Luisde8cd : OW can survive without Air Lingus, but I cannot say the same without IB.
29 A340-600 : Effectivement Olivier, j'ai lu aussi qu'IBERIA allait mal, alors qu'ils ont fait un super coef de remplissage, je ne comprends pas, (Eric PARIS 11) I'
30 Icaro : Hi all, I think IB is not in OW because of our service, but because of our flights. We have a great network to Latinamerica that nobody else can offer
31 Cxsjr : Maybe it's because I normally book in the cheapest class but rarely has any codeshare/alliance been a benefit to me. I've tried to check-in for a JA t
32 Xkorpyoh : IB is not going anywhere...remember that BA and IB are getting closer and closer working togther (merge anyone?!?). As mentioned, if IB goes because o
33 Post contains images Rossyboy : I don't care what the article says- these airlines have every right to be in Oneworld...if you wanted to kick someone out of an alliance, try American
34 Pdpsol : A340-600, You are correct, while everyone appears to be completely obsessed with IB's inflight service, the real story here should be the carrier's st
35 Post contains images JoseMEX : >The last longhaul flight I took with IB I would have to say that the average age of all the flight attendants was around 30
36 AlitaliaMD11 : hey My dad was really upset that since he flew AA and wanted to transfer his miles to his Iberia Plus card, and American woud not let them, they told
37 Havik747 : Don't forget AA is charging for meals in the Y cabin across the USA ... so though not a low fare carrier as Aer Lingus is adopting or the or the poor
38 IberiaN : As always, the fool of everything goes to IB. And what about AA's service? Apart from that, Havik747, hopefully BA partial ownership of IB will change
39 Post contains images Annoyedfa : HERE WE GOOOOOOOOO AGAIN! Arguing over what an AIRLINE SERVES! If people don't like it THEN DON'T FLY THE AIRLINE! EVERY airline has cut back to surv
40 Post contains images TACAA320 : IB will not leave OW. They know that IB has the best LatAm network and connecting flights compared to any European carrier. If the in flight service i
41 JoFMO : IB shouldn't be kicked out. Their network is just too valuable. But EI should really think about if they still want to be lagacy carrier or not. Anf i
42 SLVRBLT : Annoyedfa - I have to agree with your comments here. Customers have spoken - the bottom line for their choosing an airline is PRICE. Period. OK, fine
43 Anxebla : Qantasclub... How boring you are with this monthly anti-IB threads. All people here Know you dislike IB a lot, and I respect that... but I think is no
44 Post contains images Howard500 : PDPsol you said it! Anyhow, Frankly I think that within airline alliances, network size and effectiveness comes before service quality among its membe
45 Post contains images Iberia340600 : Oh, there you go, Fede! So that´s why on-board service is so disastrous: their A340's are now staffed with kids!!! Jose...I cant win cant I! If they
46 Ei2ksea : I suppose the concept of an alliance ultimately whatever about 'serving the customer' or similar marketing words, is to benefit the company bottom lin
47 Aussie747 : The real question should be about getting JL into One world, not whether we should be kicking out anybody. To stay true though the alliance should be
48 Qantasclub : Iberia340600: re: "Now, if anyone can give me ANY information as to where "Airlinequality" gets their supposed "facts" I would greatly appreciate it"
49 Iberia340600 : Qantasclub: Uh...try over 5 million responders to their surveys, ie: the flying public..the people who actually buy tickets and keep the airline indus
50 JoFMO : I have good experiences with Skytrax. Before flying an unknown carrier I usually read the first 10 to 20 comments. And comparing it later with my flig
51 Uafan17 : Icaro- U completely agree with you as each airline works in a different market situation, AA should not be compared to El as AA is doing what is right
52 Qantasclub : "I wonder that espacially the well-known IB-lovers don't like Skytrax." Spot on, JoFMO. The truth often hurts.
53 Post contains images IberiaN : Hi! I agree with Iberia340600: Skytrax and AirlineQuality are a joke! I had a look yesterday and most comments about IB are negative! Why? Maybe becau
54 Post contains images Howard500 : Im sorry guys but Skytrax and AirlineQuality are not a joke. Passengers post their opinions on the service they receive on board the airlines they fly
55 Anxebla : ""Quantas could not survive with Iberia quality standards because it operates in a very quality oriented market, while Iberia can get away with averag
56 Post contains images JoseMEX : >There are thousands of topics to discuss about.
57 RCS763av : Just for the record, remeber its Qantas not Quantas, as Qantas is not a word, it cannot be translated into spanish. Oh and SkyTrax is the most subject
58 AlitaliaMD11 : This has really turned into a airline bashing thread!! Especially focused on Iberia!!! I know the forms are open to place everyones opion but I mean c
59 Post contains images Ei2ksea : Uafan17, just for background info; whilst EI inflight service has suffered from low morale of staff as well as service offerings being pruned within t
60 Lan_Fanatic : My dad came back from Switzerland 3 weeks ago. He flew Varig to FRA from SCL, and he was supposed to return with RG from MXP. He had to stay longer in
61 Post contains images IberiaN : Dear Lan Fnantic, It's a pleasure to read "reasonable" comments about IB, at last! It's nice to recognize that it's trying to improve, and I think it'
62 RCS763av : Having flown Iberia both long-haul and short-haul, I must say they are an OK airline. But all the people in this forum compare IB with SQ or TG, so th
63 Post contains images Bullpitt : I've flown Qantas on several occasions, last JNB-SYD, SYD-MEL, MEL-ADL and ADL Canberra, The short hauls were good, very similar to what I'm accustome
64 Post contains images JoFMO : @Bullpitt: I believe all them who write something bad about IB as much as them who writes something bad. Spain is not a country hated all around the w
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