Swisskloten From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 24784 times:
I know that there are some planes that have programming so sophisticated that pilots can switch on the autopilot and have the plane land itself. Where in the world would this be legal? Why would this be necessary? Although autopilot can make corrections, it's still important to keep an eye on the area in front of the plane so split-second corrections can be made. I'm sure the pilots are doing this and I'm sure they would be dead tired after a 10-hour flight but still, isn't it probably better to make it impossible to activate autopilot to land the plane? Are there any pilots out there who have done this before? I flew into Kloten one time and the fog was so thick that visibility was zero. Even when they touched down, I could not see the landing lights on the strip. Would the crew use autopilot if they felt it necessary in this situation?
1 JpetekYXMD80: Not only legal, but I believe it is mandatory to do every X number of cycles. They can be pretty nice, but supposedly the true greaser requires human
2 Soaringadi: What Jepetek says is true... Infact in some types of planes it would be "illegal" if you (the pilots) don't autoland the plane atleast once in a month
3 ZKSUJ: Yes they are legal. Put it this way, would big corporations such as Boeing and Airbus promote Illegal operations by installing autoland on their aircr
4 Caboclo: It's called a Category IIIC approach. It's designed for when the airport is fogged in. The Cat I approach minimums are 200 foot ceiling and 1800 feet
5 HAWK21M: Autolanding is not only Legal but also Vital in Fogged conditions. Out here Max is cat IIIA at Del. regds MEL
6 Philsquares: Swisskloten The thing you have to remember is in modern aircraft, and I will use mine the 744, when you do an auto land there is more than one auto p
7 HAWK21M: Now if someone could only figure out how to clear the runway and get to the gate with 0/0 Common Feature at New Delhi around Fog season ie Dec-Jan. At
8 FJWH: On the 11th of December I was on a BA flight from AMS to LGW.The landing was rough (thus nice). After we came to an almost complete stop the co-pilot
9 Mhodgson: I was on an AMM flight in 1998 (AMM761D ALC-BHX IIRC!), on a 757. The pilot announced we would be doing an automatic landing at Birmingham, before exp
10 Asteriskceo: The runway, airplane, and pilot have to be rated in order to perform a CAT3 "auto-land". I believe it would be illegal if you tried one without all th
11 Air2gxs: Asteriskco, the operator (airline) must also be rated or approved to operate aircraft in a CAT II or III environment.
12 Philsquares: Just to clarify, you can do an auto land on any runway that has an ILS. We do it all the time. However, to do a CATII or CATIII, then the crew, aircra
13 DeltaGuy: On the 737, it's two autopilots....on the MD-80 series jets, it's just one autopilot actually on (there are two, just not on at the same time) DeltaGu
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13702 posts, RR: 67 Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 22540 times:
The procedure is to fly the approach on the autopilot down to the minimums, then procede with a manual landing if the field is in sight, with the exception of IIIC which has no minimums and is fully automated.
Well, not quite. IIIC is a vision category, not a landing method category. As Philsquares points out, landing with IIIC (0/0 viz) can be done but what is the point if you can't taxi to the gate.
Automated landings can done at all Cats. That is, if you autoland you autoland. You don't take over when the field is in sight. You can very well land manually even without the field in sight at the start of the approach, as long as minimums requirements are met.
And here is some more info (most of it stolen from old posts )
RVR is Runway Visual Range, basically a distance in feet that the pilot can expect to see forward in his airplane.
The ILS equipment at the airport must be certified for it, as well as aircraft type (actually individual aircraft) and crew have to be certified.
Alert Height (AH) is not like a Decision Height (DH) -
At "DH" (obtained from radio altimeter for Cat.II) you have to make a DECISION to land or go-around...
xxx
In Cat.III operations, there is no DH... but you have to make a decision to land based on "what you see"... pilots find the DH "decision" very convenient for Cat.II, but did not exist for Cat.III...
xxx
So in "pratical operations", the AH is used somewhat like a DH, but is not regulatory. In other terms, we expect to "see the runway" at that point... which is about 50 feet radio altimeter, just about where the runway threshold is located, in Cat.IIIa minimums. In Cat.IIIb, happens at about 35 feet...
xxx
Many 747 are equipped for Cat.IIIa operations (not Cat.IIIb), although most of the "Classic" 747s (with 3 autopilot channels) have the LRCU that is required for Cat.IIIb... LRCU = landing roll control unit... keeps the nose wheel on the center line, using the localizer...
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
Brick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1423 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 21933 times:
Several months ago while on a United flight I heard our flight crew advise ATC that we were going to do an autoland arriving into Denver. It was one of the smoothest A320 landings I have ever experienced...
After the flight I chatted with the first officer. He said at United they have to do one at least once every 30 days.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10524 posts, RR: 63 Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 21757 times:
It is callled a flight confidence check, you´ll do an autoland in good weather conditions, to make sure that everything works as it should.
To be certified for CAT 3B approaches, the runway has to certified (ILS and everything), the aircraft, the pillots, the airline needs to have a special CAT 3 maintenance program running, with especially certified mechanics to work on and test the autopilot systems.
During an autoland, depending on the aircraft, there are several autopilots in action, e.g. on the B757 there are three independent autopilots steering the plane in parallel, each with it´s own sensors (IRU, ILS receiver, radio altimeter, air data computer...) and outputs (each has it´s own servo for each of the primary flight controls. From 1500´ AGL down, the busses will split and each autopilot will have it´s own independent power supply. Together with the autothrottle computer they´ll fly the plane until touchdown and runout. Braking will then be done automatically with the auto speedbrakes system and autobrakes, only the thrust reversers and flaps will have to be operated by hand. The autopilots also crosscheck each other.
The MD11 uses two flight control computers (FCCs), but each box has two seperate channels, which control each other. Each FCC has it´s own power supply, as well as independent inputs and outputs.
Spare parts have to be CAT 3b certified, this means especially bench tested. After maintenance on the autoland system, the whole system has to be checked and tested by a certified mechanic to upgrade the airplane to CAT 3b s
status again.
FrndlySkys777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21513 times:
Like everyone else said above, an autoland is legal. Another factor why pilots don't use the autoland all the time would be to maintain "currency." I know in the US that Federal Air Regulations state that pilots must perform landings on their own every so often. Airlines may also choose to adapt tougher standards. Thus the reason why autolands don't occur often.
In fact in my logbook there is acutally a section where you record the number of landings you make.
Jeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 534 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21470 times:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Cat III a crew certification? Thus, a different pilot and F/O combo, though either or both might be Cat III certified, aren't authorized for Cat III approaches as they aren't certified as a team. I've worked for two airlines, neither being Cat III certified, the 1st was Cat II and the current is only Cat I.
Philsquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21449 times:
No, there is no "crew" certification. As long as each crewmember is certified, then they are authorized to conduct CAT III apporoaches. Assuming all other requirements are met.
Jeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 534 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21394 times:
Soaringadi From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 472 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 21123 times:
***"It would not be "illegal" for the crew to not do their minimum # of autolands.
But it would de-certify them from CAT III operations."***
Lnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1532 posts, RR: 22 Reply 26, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 21020 times:
Here's a question for you --
For all us people who don't work in the industry, do we have a listing of airports (major ones) that are cat iiic certified? (or at least, what runways are?)
I live here in YYZ, and I'm wondering if it has the capability?
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13702 posts, RR: 67 Reply 27, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20987 times:
I can't think of any regulatory body that has any requirements for a "crew" certification. In reality it's too unworkable.
No kidding. In large organisations you may work with a different pilot every few flights.
For all us people who don't work in the industry, do we have a listing of airports (major ones) that are cat iiic certified? (or at least, what runways are?)
No list, but I can tell you that CAT IIIC is pretty rare. If you have zero visibility, they would have to tow the aircraft off the runway.
There are several projects in the works to make 0/0 taxiing possible, and the technology has been tested. However, given how most airports have 0/0 viz only in the most extreme conditions, the economics are currently not workable.
And before you ask, GPS is not precise enough to taxi a plane. Any fudge larger than about a meter would entail hitting the finger, other vehicles, putting wheels in the grass...
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
By188b From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0 Reply 28, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 20983 times:
I was on a First Choice a321 LGW-IBZ, it was the smoothest landing i had ever had on a aircraft and the captain announced over the pa that the autopilot had landed the craft.
BA LHR-CPT-LHR 744 J, LH LHR-TXL-LHR A319, TCX LGW-SPU-LGW A320
Swisskloten From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 29, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20813 times:
Interesting replies. That brings up another question: do you have to keep your hands on the yoke when you autoland? Or, are you supposed to keep your hands off the yoke to ensure that the autopilot is trimming properly? Also, throughout the autoland, what is actually being done? Do the crew have to deploy the engine reversers or is absolutely everything being done by autopilot?
Pictues From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 224 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 20801 times:
In the USA it is leagal to Auto Takeoff. In Canada the feature is disabled as it is not permitted in Canada. Also AMS is equiped so that aircraft can auto taxi.
Av8trxx From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 654 posts, RR: 9 Reply 31, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20740 times:
Regarding crew certification, US Federal Aviation Regulations for Category III pilot authorization requirements can be found under 61.68-
Air2gxs From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 33, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20618 times:
There are 4 things a flight crew must do in an autoland (in no particular order):
1. Tell the aircraft to do the autoland
2. Extend flaps as required
3. Extend Gear
4. Deploy reversers
May want to add extend/retract flight spoliers, but I guess that's optional.
As for auto-takeoff, I believe the only thing that can be automated on take-off is the auto-throttle system. I assume that immediately after take-off the auto-pilot can be engaged to maintain the selected profile, but gear and flaps belong to the flight crew.
Aviation From Australia, joined Dec 2004, 1143 posts, RR: 32 Reply 34, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20500 times:
Very interesting did not know much about this subject but could someone tell me when was the first relese of the autoland system and on which a/c and also which airline was the first to addopt the use of the autoland system the pioneers of this system in other words?
Thanks,
Aaron J Nicoli
Signed, Aaron J Nicoli - Trans World Airlines Collector, Stoie Systems CEO
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13702 posts, RR: 67 Reply 35, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20435 times:
: do you have to keep your hands on the yoke when you autoland? Or, are you supposed to keep your hands off the yoke to ensure that the autopilot is trimming properly? Also, throughout the autoland, what is actually being done? Do the crew have to deploy the engine reversers or is absolutely everything being done by autopilot?
Hands off the yoke! Throughout the autoland, the pilots are checking that everything is working properly, as well as deploying flaps as required. Reversers are deployed by some autoland systems and not by others.
As for auto-takeoff, I believe the only thing that can be automated on take-off is the auto-throttle system. I assume that immediately after take-off the auto-pilot can be engaged to maintain the selected profile, but gear and flaps belong to the flight crew.
Most autopilots cannot be engaged until a certain altitude is reached, normally around 500 feet AGL.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
IAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 641 posts, RR: 11 Reply 37, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20334 times:
On the 717 at AirTran, we must perform an autoland every 30 days. On the dispatch paperwork it will indicate that the CA and FO are either CAT III , or CAT I. Both of us have to have the CAT III next to our name to be legal to perform an actual CAT III approach and landing. I usually knock it out on the first trip of the month. I try to perform one in Atlanta or another high density airport where we will be turned onto the final several miles outside the marker and be slowed and stabalized early in the approach. LGA, DCA and other airports where you have special visual approaches are not conducive or even legal for autolands. The airplane needs to be set up way out so autolands are not performed at airports with little traffic where you are cleared for a visual approach way out thus being able to keep your speed up and or turn a short final.
During an autoland, the flying pilot does hold on to the yoke and thrust levers and is always ready to take over and land manually if any one of several conditions are not met during different points in the approach. Each aircraft type has different limatations for an autoland to be conducted. For instance, on the 717, we can only perform an autoland if the wind is (15 knots or less x-wind) 20 knot headwind etx. We have several other limatations like runway slope, contamination levels and pressure altitude of the airport.
Basically, autolands can not be performed on windy days with heavy rain etc. They are designed for foggy conditions in still air. Ive seen the 717 grease landings and land hard off the centerline. When a landing is not deemed acceptable by the pilot, it is written up and the aircraft is downgraded to "no autoland" status until the mechanics can determine the cause.
Popfly From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 39 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20163 times:
IAHERJ,
Now that's the kind of useful info on the 717 I need. IAHERJ, would you be interested in helping make a 717 for Flight Simulator? The gauges are 75% done. Since I can't email you, please contact me at...
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