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CO Pay Cuts  
User currently offlineCb777 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1216 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Rumors are circulating that the field services pay cut could be as much as
12 percent. Many of my fellow employees are getting ready for the worst.
I think it may get ugly as far as labor relations in the near future!!!!!

86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

I don't think it'll get ugly, to be honest. No one is happy, but most people are smart enough to realize the alternative of possibly going into Chapter 11 and losing even more is not really palatable.

I think the paycuts, from everyone I've talked to, will be about 7%, with a lot of concessions on things like vaction and overrides.

That's a lot of money, to be sure, but I've been through it before. Personally, I can handle it a little better now that I'm at top-out, then when I was making under $7 an hour, lat time we took pay cuts.

You'll have your malcontents-MaxQ is a good example of that. But most people, while not liking it, understand it.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

V,
The flight attendant ranks are actually getting extremely negative, anti company over this, and many of them are talking strike and all sorts of other idiotic things. While my family is open to the cuts and realize that it is a reality to come, many are full of the 'management is screwing us, and we are secretly making money and they are stealing it" mentality.

As much as I think the opposite, there is definately a majority that are in rank and saying they will fight any cut at all.

Sad.

Jeremy


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

Well, they'll fight it, Jeremy, but it will come to pass, or else the company will give them hell with a trip to bankruptcy court. Fortunately, CO's unions arent's as militant as other airline unions, and I think they'll see to reason. They won't like it-who does, really-but they'll go along.

I had a crew the other days saying "oh, they're getting money under the table for the new aircraft", and "let the CEO make $1", and I told them, with respect, they were full of crap. They kind of looked at me funny, and I flat-out told them that this is one reason I don't like unions at airlines-is this kind of crap, which it is-crap.

Heard the other day that the pilots' union negotiators, a panel of 9, I believe, voted unanimously to accept the amount of wage concessions the pilots will have, and now they're looking at work rule changes and the like to see how much they can minimize off-the-top cuts.

The unions will go along. They'll whine and cry, like they always do ,but in the end, they'll go along.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3679 times:

12% would be harsh. I believe that CO has lower rates than DL/UA and AA even now after those 3 airlines latest cuts. I think this will be difficult to pass. CO is cash flow positive and almost break even. Unions would be wise to wait and see what will shake out with US Airways and Independence air and United.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Unions would be wise to wait and see what will shake out with US Airways and Independence air and United.

They have till Feb 28th till wait. After then, if they're still squealing, the compnay has said they will take matters into their own hands.

As for 12%, I agree, and I think it will be more like 7% off-the-top, with more work-rule changes, at least in the field services division.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3640 times:

I imagine it's a little harder to understand the 'need' for pay cuts for most employees excluding management that is (who make their's up in bonuses) when the Express pilot's just received an 11% raise and $40 million dollars in back pay (which I sincerely congratulate them on)

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival,
then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?

An earlier post indicated 'most people are smart enough to realize the possibility of going into chapter 11 is less palatable'

I assume by your position, then that you have no objection to other Continental employees receiving raises while your compensation is cut, that you always take management on their word regardless of how it affect's you.

I have been with this airline for over 18 years, through the godawful lorenzo years, Hollis Harris and his Prayers and the priceless Bob Ferguson and his 'cal lite' and have done everything but give them the shirt off my back, as have most of my peers, we are the most productive hardworking group of pilot's out there and have always worked for less.

I'd be willing to bet you've done more than your share too, it doesn't make you a bad person to question management you know, despite Bethune having done some good things (with our help) you have as much right to question their leadership as anyone, especially when they make contradictory and misleading statement's.

If you keep settling for less I guarantee you they will keep coming back for more, our greatest strength over the last 10 years has been the hard work and good morale of this airline, when employees stop caring...well we've all seen what happens then.

On the other hand, if you choose to just take them at their word, and denigrate those that do not you'll only have yourself to blame as you lose more and more.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineCAL From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 499 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

If you actually believe that the pilots and Flight Attendants will have their pay cut in by Feb 28, I think your very mistaken. I believe it will be closer to summer or even fall before the Pilots and F/A take the cuts. Many pilots and F/A are willing to push the company to the brink of bankruptcy before they give something up.
My personal opinion is this: Before we are to take pay-cuts we need to do more cutting things back. For example we throw away so much food on those planes its really not funny. We waist so much stuff. We need to do things like the other airlines did and cut meals, take off crew meals, take off pillows and blankets. Change some of the layover hotels etc. etc . etc..
Im just saying that many more changes within the company need to happen before the front line takes cut.
Face it if your agents and flight attendants are not happy then the passengers wont be happy.
I love my job and let me say I love Continental and I hate to see us in the position that were in. Hopefully when things are better we can once again offer all of those nice amenities and nice employee perks that we once had but now is the time we have to cut them
CAL.... Still. Working Hard and trying to Fly RIght



CAL........Continental Airlines....... Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival,
then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?


MaxQ, do you think just because there are paycuts, that the airline should not plan to stay competitive, and plan for the future? The airline industry won't stop when you and I take paycuts. Airlines have to keep moving forward, and this is part of the process. What part of that do you not understand?

On the other hand, if you choose to just take them at their word,

You seem to take the Union at it's word, don't you? What's the difference?

If you actually believe that the pilots and Flight Attendants will have their pay cut in by Feb 28, I think your very mistaken. I believe it will be closer to summer or even fall before the Pilots and F/A take the cuts.

If they're that dumb, then their cuts will be bigger than what the company is asking for now. They'll do it by the deadline. They won't like it, but they'll do it.


User currently offline777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3591 times:

A divestiture of Chelsea Catering might be an option, though I haven't heard of any meal service cuts and such a move would certainly hurt a company which is a subsidiary of ours.

The pay cuts we will take in '05 were something we knew was coming, but chose to believe that they wouldn't given the relative spacing between our announcement and the rollout of the concession packages other carriers were forced to create at an earlier stage of the game. It's a big hit, but something I feel had to be done with the apparent stabilization of fuel prices at unheard-of levels, and nearly every other area of the company tapped dry of cost cutting solutions.

Regarding Thursday's announcements, I'm a firm believer in the old adage "you have to spend some money in order to make money", and for us to further distance ourselves from the competition smart, low-risk capital expenditures are a prudent way to go. Our moves are being praised by the financial types, and while the morale of the company has noticeably declined as of late, I am certain that spending some money now will pay great dividends in the future when things turn over. I've been through all the ups-and-downs with this company, and perhaps my attitude is jaded, but I feel like I've been through worse than this, and soon, things are going to be better. They've been on the way up for a while, it's just that the paradigm has shifted such that our great strides in "trimming the fat" have only resulted in net losses due to the independent variable of fuel. From an operational standpoint, we've taken steps on the flight deck to reduce consumption in any number of ways, and I'm sure systemwide we have saved some money for the company, so again I'm happy to be doing my part but I know that it won't quite be enough to push us over the edge, but the agreed-upon package of pay cuts and benefits give us at least a fighting chance to do so.

I'm not going to be with this company for a whole lot longer, but I look at this entire struggle since 2001 as a marathon, not a sprint. Other companies have made sweeping changes and seemingly pulled ahead of the pack, only to encounter other problems stemming from such a rapid start that they might not have seen in advance. Others, like Continental, have taken a proactive, careful approach, which not only allows us to make it through today's environment, but also sets us up to thrive in the next period of growth that will come, as it always does, in this, one of the most cyclical of industries.

Back to the marathon analogy for a minute, look at it like the final hill of the race. We've been running as a team for 24 miles, doing whatever it takes to ensure that we will come out of the race healthy. It's been a rough go, but perhaps an easier time than some of our competitors. The last 2 miles of the race are at a steep grade, but once we reach the top, we are home free and get to rest for a while. The last hill is going to take some sacrifices from all of us, and while we may not agree with everything that's going to go on, take it from the veterans: we know what we are doing, and trust us, we are going to get it done even if it takes every last bit of our energy to cross that line.

The common goal, or finish line, is profitability, and once we attain it, we will be built immeasurably better for the future, a bright one at that.

On a side note CAL... I'd be reluctant to kiss away those amenities for the customer any time soon, because things like free meals, pillows, entertainment, and blankets are things that separate us and our product from the competition. Look at the old lounges on the 747: if these other things go, where would the incentive be to ever bring them back?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3562 times:

Regarding Thursday's announcements, I'm a firm believer in the old adage "you have to spend some money in order to make money"

Exactly! We can't stop being an airline, or a business, because of pay cuts, can we? We still have to pay bills, have to buy gas, have to BUY AIRPLANES once in a while. The world can't stop because of pay cuts. The company didn't stop when it was losing money, did it? It kept going forward the best it could. So will we as agents, and so will the company.

Listening to Max, the company should just put everything on hold becuase his pay is cut. Doesn't work that way, Max.

And remember, once we can get profitable again, the company will revisit pay scales, much like they did in the 90's. I got 60% in pay raises between 1994 and 1999, Max, so you won't hear me bad-mouthing the company. They were really good to me, and thanks to them, I was able to do a lot of very good things for my family, like move into a really good area, go on some good trips with the kids, and a few with my wife, and buy new vehicles.

I'm not thrilled that I have to take a pay cut, and it will make meeting obligations a little tighter, but unlike you, Max, I understand why it's happenning. I'm not going to act like a spoiled baby, and act unprofessionally, as some union people, and some on the ramp and some agents seem to want to do. Forget it. I have too much pride in myself for that.

I don't like this either, but i'd rather do this than try to find another job at my age.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

CO are to buy 10 7E7, at the same time they´re cutting $ 500 million in wages and benefits for its employees!

Scary!

Micke / SE  Insane



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

CO are to buy 10 7E7, at the same time they´re cutting $ 500 million in wages and benefits for its employees!

Scary!


You didn't read a damn thing on the last two posts, did you? Scary.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 857 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Sorry Falcon if I ignored you´re post, but you can "always get another job at you´re age".

Cheers

Micke / SE  Insane



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3440 times:

Solnabo, I don't know what the hell that last post even meant, but as I said, airlines can't stop being an airline because of wage concessions. If there's an opportunity for an airline to improve it's poslition, and getting planes does that, then I don't see the problem. Left to minds like yours, I guess we'd never purchase an aircraft again, simply because of wage cuts. That's the scary type of thinking.

User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1122 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

I seem to have missed something here...

Although I don't want a pay cut any more than the rest of you--It is going to happen.

After re-reading the CO Employee Q&A, as well as what I recall from the press release, I don't see where CO is spending much cash for these airplanes. The 67s and 37s are going to be leased (the 737 contract provides for backstop leasing--whatever that means). The 7E7s are not scheduled to be delivered until 2009 and quite likely could be leased if we are short on cash and still have a good credit rating. The only money required upfront appears to be the loan payments on the refurbishing of the 57s.

Although the lease contract is carried as a "liability", we always have the possibility of renegotiating the terms or returning the aircraft if things get really bad. Just like we did 10 years ago!

Many of the us were with CO when you kind of "whispered" who you worked for when asked. At one time CO was in a really unique position--Dead Last. We didn't even have any competition for the position. We were so far behind, no one else could even come close!!

Gordon & Company arrived, and along with the rest of us, turned things around. Now when I say that I work for CO, people usually have good things to say. That even includes the employees of some of our competition. We have a GREAT company! Let's not become another US, TW, PA, and a whole list of other dead airlines.

We are Continental and we will make it through this!

If anyone out there knows how to get money when there is none, please, call Larry first thing Monday morning. (Send the rest of us an e-mail so we can get on the bandwagon too!)

We have to keep in mind that two of the primary things CO has to do is to keep our Customers happy, and keep Wall Street happy. We cannot do either if we start fighting among ourselves and letting our customers see our dis-satisfaction.

One more thing Guys and Gals. Let's be more careful when and where we discuss company business. Many of us have heard employees/crewmembers discussing company business (morale and pay) at breakfast, on the jetway, and other places where the public can hear us. (US, because as much as I try to be aware of it, I'm sure that I've done it too!)

Whew! Time to get off my horse and go to breakfast!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3400 times:

The only money required upfront appears to be the loan payments on the refurbishing of the 57s.

Actually, Boeing will foot the bill for refurbishing the 753's and 738's into CO colors and interior design, another reason why this is a sweet deal for CO.


User currently offlineNyskymasters From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3393 times:

Falcon84,

I just saw this post so I am a bit slow in responding to your first remarks at the top. All I can say about ALPA already agreeing to the paycuts is THINK AGAIN. If they have then this is going to be a long process. The pilots are being asked to shoulder something like 44% of the cuts. Rough math says that is over 25% of the total pilot costs to the company. When you have a legacy carrier that already has some of the lowest costs I think it would be safe to say that the union negotiators have NOT agreed to anything yet.


User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

I have to go with Falcon on this - I think COs folks won't like the cuts, but they are smart enough to know it means CO will survive and continue to thrive where other carriers are purchasing tombstones.

Furthermore, as Falcon said, CO has to purchase new a/c to remain competitive. They'd be foolish to think they could continue to compete 5-6-7 years down the road without new routes and a/c.

Certainly one of the things that sets CO apart, in my opinion of course, from the other troubled legacy carriers is the communication between management and employees. One of the reasons CO remains successful is because of that communication.

Nuf said - CO is still my carrier of choice. They've been smartly managed for many years with great people at all levels. They will take this in stride, heads high and CO will continue to prevail.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

All I can say about ALPA already agreeing to the paycuts is THINK AGAIN.

I did NOT say they had agreed to the pay cuts; I said, and listen carefully, that they had agreed with the company on the amount the pilots will take, iether in paycuts, work rule changes and the like. The actualy paycuts are still to be worked out. There is a difference.

The pilots are being asked to shoulder something like 44% of the cuts.

I don't know about that. Field Services is shouldering about 1/5%, or $99 million of the $500 million. That's because we are the largest of the work groups. The pilots are the highest paid, so of course they will shoulder a high burden. But guess what? Everyone is taking the pay cuts, and I really don't care to see the highest paid of front-line employees crying to me about their paycuts. Take it like a pro, and deal with it.


User currently offlineEwr757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 360 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3330 times:



Not one penny.

Falcon84 you are very mistaken in your assumptions. As far as pilots being the highest paid group, deal with it.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4747 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

The definition of 'professional' is being paid for what you do, it is also an attitude, just because you question management makes you no less 'professional' I would say the opposite in fact.

It also makes you no less supportive of the airline just because you don't immediately take management at their word and give them what they 'want'
(it has not been proven yet that they need these cuts)

I certainly don't take the union at their word either, but I do not work for them.

I assume you mean the union leadership, we are the union. In fact their recent actions have been very suspect.

It is obvious people feel very passionate about this airline, most of us have devoted our lives to it and you owe it to yourselves to check out what they say before you fork over your hard earned dollars and benefits

While not questioning the need for more and new aircraft I would think, even the most trusting employee might question, why a month after we are told these cuts are vital to the airlines survival an announcement is made that this order is contingent on these same cuts.

Most of the pilots I know including myself would, actually support concessions
if they are proven necessary, this they have certainly not done, in fact a large employee group just received a raise!

Those that say they understand what is happening at this stage I think, unfortunately are deluding themselves.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineWbmech From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

What is the company going to do to force the unions into concessions? File for bankruptcy? We have contracts and it is going to be a long fight to get them changed. Continental is still a healthy company when you look at the books. If not, then consider this, CAL bid for Avianca at a package worth over $350 million. Despite oil prices, CAL has shown operating profits for all quarters except for one since 9/11. Cal authorized a new contract for XJT pilots costing $31 million in 2005 alone. I say wait until the company is truly in trouble before considering any givebacks. Once you give something away, you never get it back.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

Not one penny.

What did that mean? That you refuse to help the company? The company did right by you from '94 till 2001, but now you want to be a stubborn ass, and try to keep every cent, while everyone else takes a pay cut.

Not in this lifetime. You flyboys and girls will have to pitch in just like everyone else. As for you being the highest paid, I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with the crybaby attitude of many pilots, which is not just a CO problem. Pilots seem to whine more than anyone at airlines these days, even though they are the highest compensated.

And if that's your attitude, go work somewhere else.

The definition of 'professional' is being paid for what you do, it is also an attitude, just because you question management makes you no less 'professional' I would say the opposite in fact.

Depends, Max on how you go about questioning management. If you release a press release, giving the pilots all the credit for the company's turnaround during the last negoitiations, that's unprofessional; if it means showing up where Gordon is with barf bags with some idiotic saying on them, that's unprofessional, as happened last negotiations; if it's simply going out and holding a sign saying "unfair labor practices", in a quiet, peaceful manner, that's is professionalism, in my view.

Again, it depends how you make your voice heard-with dignity or acting like a baby.

It is obvious people feel very passionate about this airline, most of us have devoted our lives to it and you owe it to yourselves to check out what they say before you fork over your hard earned dollars and benefits.

I have, and I'm satisfied, looking at the losses that we've incurred over the last several years, plus the plethora of cost-saving meausres we've put in up to this point, that this is about the only answer. You can be suspicious, but suspicion turning into paranoia helps no one.

While not questioning the need for more and new aircraft I would think, even the most trusting employee might question, why a month after we are told these cuts are vital to the airlines survival an announcement is made that this order is contingent on these same cuts.

Again, if you've read it without putting in what you want to read, Max, you'll see it's only contingent on board approval, before the date Boeing has set for us to make up our mind on this deal. It isn't contingent on our pay situation, since there's no up-front cash involved for the 753's/738's, with Boeing paying for the refurbishment of these aircraft, and with the fact that the 7e7 doesn't even come into play for 4 years.

Most of the pilots I know including myself would, actually support concessions if they are proven necessary.

Max, what part of huge losses over the last 3 years do you NOT understand? What part of getting to the point where nothing else can be cut without harming an excellent product do you NOT understand? How much red ink will it take for the unions to say "ok, you've lost enough to convince us"? That's what baffles me about you guys-you'd rather see the company bleed almost to death, before being taken, kicking and screaming like little babies, into wage concessions. Why not do it now, and do it where it takes as little impact as possible, then be stubborn, and finding out later you'll have to lose even more pay? Pilots are supposed to be pretty smart individuals-so why can't you figure that out?

What is the company going to do to force the unions into concessions? File for bankruptcy?

You got it, baby. That's what I'd do in their place. If one or more of the unions are going to act irresponsibly, then I'd tell them do it now, when working with us, or we'll do it without your input. It's your choice. Choose wisely, or don't expect me to give you that first class seat when flying, man.

Continental is still a healthy company

Again, what part of hundreds of millions of dollars in losses do you NOT understand. We've better off than others, but as Gordon has said time and time again, whether you're drowning in 10 feet of water or 1 foot of water, you're still drowning. We WON'T be healthy if we keep incurring losses like we've been incurring.

I say wait until the company is truly in trouble before considering any givebacks.

ROTFL. And you have the brains to fix an aircraft? ROTFL! Yes, let's wait until the company is so deep in trouble that pay cuts probably won't matter, and we'll all lose our jobs. What kind of fool are you?

If you want to wait, then take bigger paycuts (and then you'll still cry like you're doing now, saying the company is unfair) than is being asked for now, and they won't accomplish a God damned thing because it will be too late.

If that is your attitude, and that of most pilots, then I'll put the blame squarely on you when we make another trip to Chapter 11, your contracts are voided by some judge, and you and I suffer even bigger paycuts.

That's what I mean by acting in an unprofessional, irresponsible manner. You aren't a team player, Wbmech. You're only a team player when you get your way. Well, go find a job somewhere else, if you're willing to take this company into the toilet like US is. We really don't need selfish idiots like yourself.


User currently offlineRamerinianair From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

When you tell your employees that these cut's are vital for the airline's survival, then a month later order over a Billion dollar's of new aircraft and tell them it is contingent on these same cut's, which is it?
MaxQ,
They are practically stealing these aircraft!!! These a/c will bring in great amounts of $$$ from the international flights they will be/have added! Without their business plan of expanding internationally, where the LCCs cannot compete, they would be in a situation like UA or DL. The employees should be praising the Management instead of trashing them! CO has some of the best management around.
Falcon . . . I totally agree. You have to give a little to get a little isn't just an old addage, it scientifically proved: The "J" Curve!!!!!
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
25 Max Q : Falcon84, you know, I do my best to keep my contributions to this forum free from personal insults, demeaning or criticizing others, in fact I believe
26 Falcon84 : Just because you feel strongly about an issue does not give you the right to treat others with such lack of respect and contempt. Excuse me, but your
27 Wbmech : Professional? How professional is it for a member of management (Assistant Director) to tell us that we have to take concessions or else the company w
28 Falcon84 : Professional? How professional is it for a member of management (Assistant Director) to tell us that we have to take concessions or else the company w
29 Flybyguy : Falcon84, You don't buy new aircraft to stay competitive in the airline industry when CO has one of the newest fleets in the industry. This was a back
30 Falcon84 : You don't buy new aircraft to stay competitive in the airline industry when CO has one of the newest fleets in the industry. The fleet won't be as new
31 Max Q : Well Falcon84, it appears you are the only one that is right, certainly no one is going to confuse you with facts, a little politeness will go a long
32 Falcon84 : Well Falcon84, it appears you are the only one that is right, certainly no one is going to confuse you with facts, a little politeness will go a long
33 Ewr757 : It sure is glad to have such an "expert" like Falcon tell us all what the pilots need to be doing. He is what a ramper for CO? If you want to fund th
34 Falcon84 : It sure is glad to have such an "expert" like Falcon tell us all what the pilots need to be doing. He is what a ramper for CO? I'm an agent, not a ram
35 DfwRevolution : Just because the extent of your education or skills has deposited you on the lower end of the totem pole at CO workforce, don't criticize others who r
36 Copter808 : I don't particularly like seeing how well paid some of our executives are either, but let's consider the alternatives. They HAVE been doing a pretty g
37 Ewr757 : **I'm an agent, not a ramper, as if it matters. ** It doesn't. What does matter is you're not a pilot, yet you come on this board yapping like a scare
38 Max Q : I find it truly incredible that with all of the information available to people, the only source they consider valid is from management's pr These peo
39 Ewr757 : **Falcon is right... Take your eye off the future for a second and it takes months/years to recover. The Asian expansion mentioned briefly in Reply 30
40 Continentalcle : You have to agree with ewr757 he makes a few good eye opening points.
41 Post contains images Falcon84 : It doesn't. What does matter is you're not a pilot, yet you come on this board yapping like a scared little dog spewing misinformation and criticism a
42 Wbmech : Not only are there plenty of very pissed off pilots right now, but there are just as many pissed off mechanics, FA's, rampers, agents, and even some m
43 Max Q : Question for you, Falcon84 'January 20th, 2009 Can't come fast enough' sounds like you're a democrat, you have a surprisingly fierce anti-union stance
44 Coair : I have a document that says, if the field services employees don't take any benefit cuts then the pay cut will be as much as 17.7%....wow....
45 Ewr757 : **Misinformation? How's that? I'm saying one thing: if we listen to you and what you want done, or not done, we'll soon find ourselves in a USAir-type
46 Calpilot : EWR757, go watch the ALPA Update DVD "Nov.2004". My vote is for the paycuts now, not after we are already in the toilet. This is not some made up "lan
47 Cory6188 : I don't mean to butt into your argument here, but I have a few questions as a pax that is fiercely loyal to CO. My family always flies CO, and wheneve
48 Calpilot : I'm not being receptive, just realistic, I do read the 10k and 8k and other information that is available which shows certain painful things are requi
49 Ewr757 : **go watch the ALPA Update DVD "Nov.2004".** I watched it. This is coming from the same folks earlier telling us to wait for a better negotiating envi
50 Uadc8contrail : If im reading this correctly this is a CO thread............i could have sworn this is a take off on any number of UA or US threads lately...co employ
51 Ewr757 : You are exactly right. they will keep coming for more and more because they won't fix the underlying real problems. Pay cuts are the path of least re
52 Calpilot : Oh I agree about the stock buy back! I agree with you in respect to the junior labor group at B6, US, etc. However, the fact remains that they B6 is t
53 Ewr757 : **However, the fact remains that they B6 is the enviorment we now find oursleves in NYC. Of course we have Europe, Asia, South America,,, but domestic
54 BigB : They also have an almost identical labor CASM as CAL. Yes, but at the same time, CO is carring an much heavier debt load than WN.
55 Uadc8contrail : EWR757, you are dead on that it is not labors costs that are making things interesting at the house of gordon, look at SWA, every work group is at the
56 Annoyedfa : Falcon84: You have no choice but to take a pay-cut your non-union. We as pilots and flight attendants have that choice. So no matter if your gung-ho o
57 Cory6188 : How can you drop all meals on flights less than three hours when CO barely serves anything anyway? I flew EWR-PBI in early November and I got a mini b
58 Flybyguy : Falcon84, I still believe that these new orders are inappropriate at a time when employees are taking deep pay cuts. I think that Bethune chose the wr
59 Post contains images EA CO AS : **Debt is hanging over our heads, with few options.** Not an employee problem. Wow. Head, meet sand.
60 Annoyedfa : Cory6188: If you can't plan your own meal on a 2 hour flight then like my captain said yesterday.... You along with everyone else have problems. You m
61 Post contains images Cory6188 : Annoyedfa, don't get mad at me - I'm not trying to start a war here. I have no issues with bringing a meal at meal time - but CO's mantra is that they
62 777gk : I won't be flying for the Proud Bird when the 7E7 enters service in '09, but in the years I'm still around I'd hate to see labor relations come apart
63 Max Q : 777gk? Pretty difficult for you to advertise yourself as the 'voice of reason' when on one hand you admit that management has been far less than forth
64 777gk : It's a tough spot. True, I was where you guys are at one point in my career, so I am totally on the same page in that regard. On the flip side, I pay
65 Max Q : What you can do is vote NO.
66 Falcon84 : What you can do is vote NO. Didn't you just say, Max, that he doesn't speak for you? If so, why the hell are you riding him on how HE wants to vote? I
67 Lono : Why do you all waste your time trying to discuss ANY issue with Alpha/Falcon.... It is sad that he can only lash out with no true argument no matter w
68 Supa7E7 : just imagine if GE let its employees vote on everything. do you think strong companies like GE let their employees bicker their way into a black hole,
69 Post contains images Falcon84 : Why do you all waste your time trying to discuss ANY issue with Alpha/Falcon.... It is sad that he can only lash out with no true argument no mater wh
70 Lono : Alpha/Falcon Again you are wrong...I'm far from "new" and your response is exactly what I mentioned... get a new job dude and quit yer bitchin...
71 Post contains images Falcon84 : Alpha/Falcon Again you are wrong...I'm far from "new" and your response is exactly what I mentioned... get a new job dude and quit yer bitchin... I th
72 Max Q : Because, F84 the chap in question made a statement alluding to 'anything he could do' Unfortunately you will only see this situation from management's
73 Post contains images Falcon84 : Unfortunately you will only see this situation from management's point of view. Actually, Max, I see it from MY point of view. I may agree with some o
74 Max Q : No, not a radical, but very concerned at the direction this company is going, we all owe it to ourselves to scrutinize carefully, these 'needs' measur
75 Lono : MAX Q Welcome to my respected user list.... You seem to know the game..!!!
76 Annoyedfa : Pay is very much inline with competition..... CUT meals, and upper management.... No more vouchers for anything... CUT CUT CUT!!! Coach service should
77 Falcon84 : CUT meals That will cut very little, actually. and upper management Easier said than done, although there's always room to either cut or "downgrad" a
78 Ewr757 : GK I can understand your position and the points you make have some validity. My basic disagreement is, I have not seen a real effort by management to
79 Supa7E7 : EWR, your second-to-last paragraph is a variation on the "it's all about me" theme. If I were a CO shareholder, I'd take great offense at that. You ar
80 Ewr757 : >>You speak of a $49 million bonus program for execs. Tell me, during that time period, what will ALPA's union wage premium be? $1 billion or more?
81 Supa7E7 : Yeah it is interesting that Gary Kelly makes so little. It is very charitable on his part. He could easily demand $3-5 million a year in the job marke
82 Ewr757 : >>In closing, it just seems like CO has a golden chance now to pull ahead of the rest financially -- your airline can grow, if you let it. Just like W
83 777gk : Growth will come as a function of relative financial success. I don't think that's the issue in question here, it's got more to do with the wasteful s
84 EA CO AS : Gary C Kelly Vice Chairman of the Board, Chief Executive Officer at Southwest Airlines Co. Salary $256,872 Bonus $184,450 Latest FY other short-term c
85 Post contains links JMV : Just curious of opinions regarding the proposed profit sharing program that CO announced yesterday. http://www.atwonline.com/indexfull.cfm?newsid=4868
86 EWR757 : Very negative reaction from pilots I have spoken with. There are to many ways for ANY company to manipulate the books to defer profits and play hide
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