Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
I have very vague memories of Pan Am's Inter German Services which operated to/from Berlin. I do remember that at one point in early 80s, PA actually had more daily flights from Berlin than from New York, Miami or Frankfurt, all which were PA hubs. (Though obviously PA transited and flew more passengers out of MIA, JFK, FRA and probably LAX and SFO also.) WEre there any destinations served from Berlin beyond Frankfurt, Hamburg, Nurnberg, Munich and Stuttgart.. Were the crews fluent in just German or English as well? Was IGS run as an independent airline, or was it integrated in the entire PAn Am system with flights continuing to other destinations? Any help/memories would be helpful. Thanks!
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3527 times:
Also, didn't BA have lots of service to/from Berlin also? What cities did they serve? Did TWA ever offer inter german flights from Berlin?
Berlinflyer From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 94 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3522 times:
Hi,
Pan Am also had services to New York, which was later taken over by Lufthansa.
The staff was german on the intra-german services. Besides PanAm there was BA and AF and a couple of others form the US, Britain and France. Others were not allowed to fly to West-Berlin. Air Berlin started as a US registered airline by that time and only became german after the strange status of Berlin had ended. TWA came relatively late to my knowledge.
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3519 times:
I now vaguely remember PA also offering services to destinations beyond Germany- Zurich and Copenhagen at some point. Were there other such cities served at any point?
A999 From Norway, joined Mar 2004, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3462 times:
PanAm had 33 daily (or at least weekday) flights out of Tegel, all operated by 727-100 aircraft. These were replaced by 737-200 and later by some extend by A310-200. Apart from the IGS flights there was one daily to Zurich; the others going to Frankfurt(12), Hamburg(8), Munich(7), Nuremberg(3) and Stuttgart(2). Some of the flights continued to JFK but with change of aircraft at FRA(PA67), MUC(PA73/77) and LHR(PA101-one of the HAM flights continued to LHR). At least flight attendants spoke fluent german.
BA also flew 27 daily flights out of TXL; Bremen(2), Cologne(7), Dusseldorf(7), Hanover(7), Stuttgart(3), and LHR(1),-all with BAC 1-11.
TWA did not fly any IGS.
By the way Air France flew 2 daily 727`s to Paris via Dusseldorf and DanAir had 2 1-11 flights to LHR via Amsterdam
This was more or less the services from West Berlin. East Berlin also had some flights from Schonefeldt, but that`s another stoty.......
Patroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
In the late 1980s, Pan Am operated 727-200 and A300/A310 on the IGS routes. On top, Pan Am Express operated regional routes ex TXL with ATR-42, to Dortmund, Nuremberg, Westerland, Kiel, Hannover.
Until the mid 1980s, the routes were pretty much allocated. PA had the monopoly to HAM, and FRA, BA had a monopoly on routes to HAJ, FMO and CGN (I think) whereas STR and MUC got both BA and PA services, DUS had both BA and AF and SCN was served by Dan Air with HS-748. However this allocation changed in the late 1980s so that BA also flew FRA-TXL and AF started a joint-venture with LH (51% AF owned to keep it French) called "Euroberlin France", operating with Monarch 737-300 between STR, DUS, MUC and Berlin TXL. TWA actually flew IGS routes starting in 1988, as far as I remember from STR, MUC and FRA to TXL. They used the 727-100 and were the only ones to offer a hot meal on the short flight.
These data are just out of the top of my head, so don't beat me if one or the other destination became a bit mixed up. There are however two very good books about the IGS available, unfortunately I think they are available in German only...
*Jack O. Bennett : "40000 Stunden am Himmel" (40000h in the sky), the biography of a pilot who flew during the airlift and later on Pan Am's IGS. I had the pleasure to meet Jack a couple of years ago in Berlin, quite an interesting person!
*Hans von Przychowski : "Luftbrücken nach Berlin" (air bridges to Berlin), about the history of the allied commercial air service on the IGS routes.
Milesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1855 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3438 times:
Until the fall of the Berlin Wall, their were only three air corridors into West Berlin, over Communist East Germany. If you are old enough, you will remember that the USA, UK, France, and USSR, each had a zone of occupation in Berlin, which was in the middle of the USSR Zone of Eastern Germany. The rights to fly to West Berlin (the USA, UK, and French zones) was negotiated during WWII, and remained the only way to West Berlin until the fall of the Iron Curtain. In 1948, after the USSR shut off the roads and rails through East Germany, it was these three air corridors that were used for the Berlin Airlift. When the Berlin Wall went up in 1961, built again by the USSR and their East German satellite allies, West Berlin became a literal island. West Germany didn't become self governing until 1955. After the war, one airline from each Western occupying nation, had air service from their German occupation zone to West Berlin. Pan Am for the USA, BEA (later merged with BOAC to form British Airways) for the UK, and Air France. Pan Am began service, with DC-3's and DC-4's. The unpressurized Fours stayed on the IGS until about 1960 when DC-6B's took over. The 727-21's were introduced in about 1965, and stayed in service until after the merger with National Airlines. There were no open air rights to West Berlin, and I think Lufthanza was prohibited from flying there by the treaties over the occupation of Berlin.
Airbear From Australia, joined May 2001, 632 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3279 times:
Ahh.. the good old days of the Cold War! I had a lot of business with East German manufacturers, so I quite often wound up flying PA on the 727-100's out of Tegel.
As was mentioned above, there were 3 air corridors leading from West Berlin to the West, easch radiating out from Berlin in the rough directions of each of FRA, HAM & MUC, and all carriers had to use these to leave the East. Once over West Germany, AF could then proceed normally to Paris, BA to LHR and PA to all over the place. The best "fun" not metioned above, was that there was a max. height restriction when flying through the corridors... I think as little as 10,000 feet or so, which of course meant regularly flying through all sorts of shitty weather and turbulence. Believe me, the 3 corridors were not designed by the Russians (via the East Germans) for the convenience of Westeners.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13332 posts, RR: 64 Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
The air corridors were originaly agreed on (I think in Teheran or Yalta) for unpressurised piston engined aircraft. Each of the three western Allies had one airfield in West Berlin, the Americans used THF, the British RAF Gatow and the French TXL. During the first years BEA flew to RAF Gatow using Vickers Viking aircraft, there was one incident, when one Viking collided with a Soviet fighter (I think it was a Tu-3) coming from Staaken military airfield (now closed) just across the border. The first american civilian flight into THF was a DC-4, not counting the civilian contractors used during the airlift.
TXL was originaly an artillery firing range. During the airlift more airport capacity was required, so the French converted this firing range into an airport, the one with the longest runway in West Berlin.
During the early 1960s, BEA also moved to THF, leaving RAF Gatow to be a purely military airfield.
During the early 70s, THF became too small and the runways too restrictive for long range jet use (the first passenger jet flying to West Berlin was an AF Caravelle to TXL, the runway of THF was too short, also PanAm did their B707 long range flights from TXL), so there was a new civilian apron and terminal built on the southern side of TXL. In 1977, most traffic moved from THF to TXL, leaving THF an almost military airfield (Tempelhof Air Base). Later some comuter traffic came back to THF.
Passenger aircraft using the corridors would occasionally be buzzed by Russian fighters.
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
Looking at the September 1989 TWA timetable they flew from Hamburg and Frankfurt to Berlin. They had no service to/from Berlin in 1987 so the service began as mentioned above when some of the routes were opened up. In the June 1, 1988 PA timetable I found service to Dusseldorf and Cologne/Bonn on mainline PA and to Stockholm, Innsbruck, Salzburg, Basel/Mulhouse and Strausborg on PAex all which were surprising. I had no idea PA ever served any of those cities excepting Stockholm at all!
Kkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3155 times:
Also, when PA flew to such cities as Basel, Salzburg and Innsbruck from Berlin were they bound by treaty obligations the USA had with those nations, or were they exempt since service to/from Berlin did not originate in the USA?
Jsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1855 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3097 times:
Thanks for the info MD11 Engineer.
I had always been curious when most flights made the move from Tempelhof over to Tegel. I knew the current Otto Lilienthal terminal opened in 1974, and I assumed that most jet services moved at that point. I had seen postcards showing BAC111s, 727s and DC9s all parked under the 'hangar' terminal at THF - must have been a pretty busy little airport before TXL was finished!
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6798 posts, RR: 5 Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
PAN AM had a lot of routes out of Berlin. I flew Berlin -Izmir with an A310. Still have a Jepsen card the pilot gave me after the flight as I visited the cockpit after the landing. Most of my flights as a kid were with PAN AM 727s and A310s aswell as BA 737-200s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
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