Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Who Will Save United If They Go Bankrupt?  
User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

With a major carrier like United facing a threat of going bankrupt after being in Chapter 11 before, i was wondering if any airline company will save them if they do go bankrupt?

United founded Star Alliance with Air Canada and has created the alliance to become the world's best with lthe best airline of each region it covers e.g. (Lufthansa ~ Europe, ANA ~ Japan, Air Canada ~ Canada etc.)

I was wondering if United does go bankrupt will any airline within the alliance or even out of it will come to save United?

thanks for any feedback


Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSoaringadi From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 472 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

It is hard to say...... because no other airlines except a few Lcc's are in a good shape, and to buy UA is not that easy with all that fleet etc.

A merger could be possible, but still very hard to say. i don't know but just hope that we don't have to see United close one day.




If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
User currently offline747firstclass From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6386 times:

My personal theory is that if UA really, really looked like ti was going to liquidate, the US govt. would step in and raise the limit to 49% that can be held by foreign investors etc.This would allow for more competition and also help save jobs. At that point, perhaps LH would invest in UA to save Star Alliance.It is just my personal theory.

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6370 times:

"At that point, perhaps LH would invest in UA to save Star Alliance.It is just my personal theory. "

I agree. I have had that disaster scenario in the back of my mind for sometime, unless of course LH is not in the financial position to offer such a package.






User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6361 times:

hmm.. which airline is the most economically strong/stable within the Star Alliance fleet?




Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
User currently offline747firstclass From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6340 times:

I forgot to add to my above post, if you look at where most of the hubs are for UA, there would also be enormous political pressure on the US govt to do something. SFO,ORD and IAD all large states and in the case of IAD, there are a lot of Congressmena and Senators that fly out out IAD and DCA on UA.

User currently offlineEmiratesUK From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6312 times:

Would it be wise to allow UA or any other US carrier on the verge of bankruptcy to be saved? Am I the only one who thinks that the U.S has a few to many international carriers? By allowing one or two to go would surely help others and prevent more disappearing.

International Carriers

U.S
AA/UA/US/CO/NW/DL/HA

Japan
JL/NH

Australia
QF/DJ (not that big Int)

China
CA/CI/CZ (maybe one or two more?)

U.K
BA/VS/BD (again not that big int)

I'm only using BIG international carriers as we all have a ridiculous amount of low cost.




EK A380 Private suite - Here I come!!
User currently offlineJumboJim747 From Australia, joined Oct 2004, 2464 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6296 times:

I would hope that the government would step in and do something about united.
It would be a shame to just let a company like that to dissolve.



On a wing and a prayer
User currently offlineCospn From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6269 times:

They said the same about PanAm in 91 UA need to save themselves with the BK Judges help.....no one else can,,

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6230 times:

I think CaptainTim wants someone to say Singapore Airlines?

User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6227 times:

~ is singapore airlines the richest/ most economically stable in Star Alliance?

i heard rumours that lufthansa would be the one saving United but i'm not sure if Singapore Arilines would actually step in?

any comments?



Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
User currently offlineJeb94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 602 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6214 times:

It would be a terrible shame to see another one of the four oldest airlines in the United States fail. The first two where Pan Am and TWA. The last of the original four airlines in the US are United and American. Despite the historical value of United, they need to save themselves. Such is the nature of a free market economy.

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6210 times:

I think conventional wisdom is than SQ is far stronger financially than LH, which has been a very mixed bag for years. However, I think UA will emerge from Chapter 11 without any airline funded bailout.

User currently offlineKen4556 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

I agree it would be shame if United fails. But like USAir, I almost believe the two airlines need to fail to help the other legancy carriers survive.

From a business and union stand-point, I think both airlines deserve to fail. Both management and the unions over the last six years have done nothing but bring the airline to where it is today. Even if 9-11 never happened, they both would be in bad shape right now.

Ken 4556


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6106 times:

I don't think LH will spend too much money for UA. Why should they? They have US Airways in the US which has definitely not that network as UA.

Let's wait and see what happens with the carriers in the US - they got enough support from the US government. Hmmmmm, we don't want to call it subsidies  Wink/being sarcastic



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Jeb94,

Is Northwest Airlines established 1n 1927 not a US carrier? For all these years I thought it was the oldest. I hope I was not mistaken!!


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2000 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6051 times:

The US Government will NOT save United, at least not under the 2nd Bush Administration. If American were the airline on the edge of collapse, perhaps because they are based in the DFW Metroplex, the Bush Administration, with its Texas routes might step in. But the majority of the employees are from Blue States: Illinois, California, and Maryland, and the ones who live in Virginia and Colorado are not near enough political reason for this administration to jump in. Furthermore, most in Washington probably realize that letting United and US Airways survive will allow American, Delta, Northwest, and Continental to survive. American, at ORD has the most to gain. The Denver hub will be taken over by someone. Look for Delta, even with their financial problems, to move from SLC to DEN, because if they do not, and an LCC sets up a big shop there, SLC is doomed too. IAD, PHL and CLT are not necessary to the US air transportation network. The smaller cities that US Airways or UA serve exclusively or close to exclusively will get service to EWR or CLE from CO, or from DTW on NW, or DL from CVG or JFK, or AA from JFK. The hub cities like CLT, SFO, CLT, IAD, and PHL will get enough non stops to the major cities with main line aircraft, and will be key targets of WN, FL, and other LCCs.

User currently offlineHiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2172 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6026 times:

actually UA is in Chapt 11 now...and planning exit first half 2005.

User currently offlineCaptainTim From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

Milesrich i dunno if that would be true~ as 747Firstclass said... most congressmen and politicians still fly either on US or UA and rarely do they use NW or Con....

would the US government not give any subsidies but be more leniant on some regulations on these companies that are facing bankruptcy?




Gulfstream Planeview Cockpit: "why have hundreds of buttons when a CCD does the same thing and more?"
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6476 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6009 times:

CaptainTim,
I'm sure that cogressmen and politicians fly whatever carrier has the best schedule. Do you think the congressmen from Texas, Georgia, Minnesota, Michigan, Tennessee, Ohio, Nevada, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Arizona etc, fly on US or UA?


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

Doesn't the law limit the amount of foreign ownership of US airlines? I believe Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines and or other non-USA investors could only purchase up to 49.9% combined.

And having worked on Capitol Hill at one point in my career, I know for a fact that members of the US Congress fly whatever airline gets them to their home district fastest/easiest. For example, Houston area members usually fly CO, Dallas area AA, Atlanta area DL, Californians usually fly United non-stop from Dulles, Detroit/Michigan area members fly NW. Actually, most Philly area members of Congress take the train from DC. New Yorkers usually fly US Airways or the Delta Shuttle. No single airline has a monopoly on politicians.

I also know, there is neither mood nor desire (Democrats and Republicans) today on Capitol Hill to save any airline. It's "hands off" as far as the US government is concerned. They'll let the courts and the investment community decided which airline(s) survive.

[Edited 2005-01-02 16:09:57]

[Edited 2005-01-02 16:11:14]

User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

The U.S. Government will not and should not do anything to save United. The fact of the matter is, it's a poorly run company who has already abused the CH11 process, and still is not even close to making money. If UAL were to shut down tomorrow, that capacity and those jobs would be replaced by other airlines within two years.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5975 times:

My guess: nobody. The U.S. government would not even give them a loan guarantee. Let alone actually lending them money. There is no chance that the U.S. government will bail out United and in the process create an incredibly bad precedent.

As for foreign investors, UA would be no better of a deal than it would be for U.S. investors. They would have to deal with the same exact problems: high costs, low yields, debt, and difficult labor relations. More fundamentally the Congress is not going change the foreign ownership limits to simply save United. They did not do it for Pan Am or Eastern.

I suppose there is an outside chance that an aircraft lessor/financier may roll the dice on United simply to avoid having a flood of new airplanes on the market.

I hope this does not play out.


User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

Periodically-appearing speculation about whether an airline would be saved based upon where it is based (i.e., the government would not allow AA to fail because of he Texas connection) is childish and irrelevant.

1. UA already is bankrupt; that is what "Chapter 11" means;

2. If UA fails, it fails, and there will be plenty of operators available to take over its capacity using, presumably, more efficient and better-managed business practices;

3. There is no reason why UA should be saved just because it is one of the "oldest" airlines; so were Braniff; Pan Am; TWA; and Eastern.

If UA cannot find a way to (1) motivate employees to work with the airline, and thus (2) improve productivity and customer service concurrently; then, they fail. Much rending of garments and gnashing of teeth, and life goes on.

There is no need for foreign carriers to take over a substantial portion of UA just to "save" it, especially if it does not merit saving; to allow that to happen would just help to continue the bleeding of the domestic carriers which remain.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5875 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Sccutler

Well said and I could not agree more with you. I think soon if UA does not provide the court that is over seeing its handling of the bankruptcy some sort of plan to emerge from bankruptcy, then the court is going to take over. The choice will no longer be there's.



You can cut the irony with a knife
25 JoFMO : You can't ask the market to solve the problem and on he other hand prevent the market to react. Not lifting foreign ownership rules just means to limi
26 Isitsafenow : BOBNWA...We in Michigan know which carrier Sen. Levin flys. I am not going to tell you but here's a hint. I have seen in in WorldClubs at DTW on Sunda
27 Seamus : I can't fathom why another carrier would come in to "save" UA. If UA were to liquidate, would the international routes be up for sale, similar to when
28 STT757 : Gordon Bethune of CO made public his contacts with UAL's managment about a merger of CO and UAL, he said UAL's CEO rejected the offer. If UAL continue
29 TOLtommy : The market will adjust if UA goes under. Just like it did when PA shut down. The attractive parts of UA will go to new owners, the unattractive parts
30 F9Animal : Hi, just my feelings on this subject. United still has assets it could sell to raise needed cash. First they need to get paycuts established, and look
31 ANCFlyer : I see no USA investor coming to their rescue. Perhaps a foreign carrier (LH seems to be my best bet). And certainly not the US Government . . . Number
32 KateAA : If UAL who will save them? Mmm, maybe parts of the company will be sold off, or other airlines will increase their own capacity to cope with the extra
33 NWAFA : No one should save them. They got them selfs into their own mess. The world will survive if United goes under. The Government should and will keep the
34 NumberTwelve : Another Chapter11? But why save them, why giving them subsidies? US admin is always crying cause of A "subsidies". Let UA die and the other airlines t
35 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>With a major carrier like United facing a threat of going bankrupt after being in Chapter 11 before Just to clarify, United has only been in Chapte
36 Aa777jr : Anti trust arbitrators are VERY unlikely to allow any carrier to absorb the amount of debt UA has. Doesn't look promising for any help.
37 OPNLguy : >>>Anti trust arbitrators are VERY unlikely to allow any carrier to absorb the amount of debt UA has. How much debt a company wants to assume while ta
38 Burnsie28 : It would be a terrible shame to see another one of the four oldest airlines in the United States fail. The first two where Pan Am and TWA. The last of
39 SwissINTLA340 : UNITED WILL NOT GO BANKRUPT.
40 NWAFA : Swiss, They ARE Bankrupt...do you mean belly up?
41 Post contains images EA CO AS : Just to clarify, United has only been in Chapter 11 proceedings ONCE. You may be confusing them with USAirways, who indeed is operating under Chapter
42 AAplatnumflier : Maybe a couple of private investors could save UA??
43 WhiteHatter : Forget Lufthansa. They have already stated they do not wish to invest in United before all this bankruptcy business started off, when the airline was
44 Cactus739 : OPNLguy What do you mean by "Hawaiian is supposed to go chapter 11 sometime this month?" Are they expecting to exit chapter 11 or go 7?
45 Ha763 : Hawaiian is expected to exit bankruptcy in the first half of 2005. They still need new contracts with all their unions to be completed before exiting.
46 Post contains images OPNLguy : Meant to say -exit- .... I sometimes have a 56K brain and 300 bps fingers... I thought I'd read January versus 1st half 2005...
47 Goingboeing : I'm sure that cogressmen and politicians fly whatever carrier has the best schedule. Do you think the congressmen from Texas, Georgia, Minnesota, Mich
48 UALFAson : Stream of consciousness... --Politicans fly any and all airlines. Being from D.C., I personally have recognized politicians in UA, YX, NW, and AA boar
49 Post contains images CaptainTim : "were UA to throw up its hands and just close its doors as some on this forum seem to advocate" When do you think is the earliest month/date that Unit
50 Fuffla : "Maybe a couple of private investors could save UA??" I don't think anyone could save UA. As bad as it sounds, UA seems like it will go belly up. Pers
51 Goingboeing : I don't understand this argument that UA has "abused" the BK process. Yes, they've been in for a while, but we're talking about a multi-billion dollar
52 Mav75 : As much as I hate to see fellow airline employees out of work, I think our government has given both US and UA all they chances they deserve and more.
53 Ual777contrail : United isn't going to fail, when will you arm chair CEO's realize this. I know it is fun to talk about the demise of US carriers, but UAL isn't one to
54 STT757 : "With the exception of dropping a few routes or cities, show me an airline that has shrank its way to profitability." When Gordon Bethune took over CO
55 Nisson : *Get used to it people***********UNITED AIRLINES WILL SURVIVE !!!!!!!!*
56 Post contains images Captaintim : i hope so!!! United has been very good to me for more than a decade
57 Ltbewr : Yes, UA is in bad trouble, but the USA governent won't save it if looks like going into Ch. 7 as to show favortism for 1 company in a competitve indus
58 Goingboeing : CO was in BK for what 3 years? Would the country be better of without them? In your eyes,yes. But they are here, and SO is UAL. The F/A's aren't smart
59 CaptainTim : are there any aviation analyst that works in banking or in any other sectors can give us an estimate when do you think that United will eventually fal
60 Britishmidland : Ideally, working within a free market system, it would be wise to have United go completely out of business. The employees are not specialized, the eq
61 Ual777contrail : Goingboeing, said earlier, the only 'plan' I see coming from UAL is to stay in BK Do you work in Elk Grove? I would be willing to bet you have no clue
62 DfwRevolution : It is the best way to alieviate some of the problems with over capacity, pricing and hub dominant carriers. In a self-correcting manner, once United i
63 Goingboeing : Do you work in Elk Grove? I would be willing to bet you have no clue what UAL's plans for exit are. You're right, I don't. But I don't think the folks
64 Kkfla737 : "3. There is no reason why UA should be saved just because it is one of the "oldest" airlines; so were Braniff; Pan Am; TWA; and Eastern." Agreed- If
65 Ual777contrail : Goingboeing, You little rant is pointless, to say UAL was waiting for US to fail. Ua doesn't want US to fail, UAL makes 200 million a year on market a
66 Goingboeing : Tell you what....UAL would be better served if US failed - codeshare or not. Because UAL would do exactly what I said any other airline would do shoul
67 Britishmidland : Nothing will correct over-capacity and it's something that happens in just about every single industry in the world. Reducing market capacity wouldn'
68 Ual777contrail : goeingboeing, Every airline would cherry pick, but UAL has a vested interest in US surviving. I cant think of to many routes UAL would serve that US d
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Delta Miles, What If They Go Under? posted Mon Aug 2 2004 09:28:47 by ARGinMIA
Question On US If They Go Under posted Thu Feb 26 2004 07:15:07 by KBUF737
What Will Ryanair Do If EasyJet-Go Goes Ahead? posted Sun May 5 2002 13:26:03 by WunalaDreaming
USAirways- Which Alliance If They Go To One? posted Wed Oct 17 2001 23:26:09 by DeltaRules
If UA Go Bust, Who Will Fill In Their LHR Slots posted Tue May 17 2005 23:41:52 by Lazyshaun
Star Alliance: Who Will They Pick If UAL Goes? posted Thu Dec 5 2002 03:57:10 by BizJets
Virgin America - Will They Go International? posted Wed Feb 15 2006 16:31:07 by YOW
Who Will Take AC A340-300s When They Are Replaced? posted Mon Dec 26 2005 06:43:41 by AirCanada014
Airbus - Will They Go Glare Or Composite? posted Wed Sep 28 2005 14:12:02 by Halibut
If US Airways Dies Off Who Will Use PHL As A Hub? posted Wed Jun 22 2005 15:57:28 by JrMafia90