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Two Reasons NWA Will Order The 7E7  
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

Here's a quote from an AWST article about the 7E7;

"ONE ADVANTAGE the 7E7 had over Airbus' competing products--both the existing A330-200 and planned A350--is a weight savings brought about by extensive use of composite structures, a JAL official commented. Japan's airport landing fees, based on aircraft weight, are the highest in the world".

That advantage would work well for an airline like NWA with extensive Asia operations based primarily out of NRT but also KIX and Nagoya.

The other advantage;

The 7E7 (300 series) can probably (not sure if this is confirmed yet) operate out of LGA.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10826 times:

The 7E7 (300 series) can probably (not sure if this is confirmed yet) operate out of LGA.


Where would they fly from LGA with this plane? LGA just like DCA is restricted to flights within a 1500 mile perimeter with DCA given a few exemptions to operate further out. They cannot go coast to coast out of LGA, International is out of the question. I think it would be a waste to fly them to DTW or MSP out of LGA when the 7E7 is designed for long thin routes. I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest.

Rob

[Edited 2005-01-03 05:00:03]


Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10768 times:

Where would they fly from LGA with this plane? LGA just like DCA is restricted to flights within a 1500 mile perimeter with DCA given a few exemptions to operate further out. They cannot go coast to coast out of LGA, International is out of the question. I think it would be a waste to fly them to DTW or MSP out of LGA when the 7E7 is designed for long thin routes. I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest.

Flights from hubs to LGA are usually the busiest/most important route for an airline (NW DTW-LGA, DL ATL-LGA, AA ORD/DFW-LGA, UA ORD-LGA for example). And the 7E7-300 is designed for Medium capacity, short/medium haul routes....Would be perfect for DTW-LGA, ATL-LGA, etc.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10758 times:

The 7E7-3 is obviously not designed for long thin routes.


STT757-

Landing fees at NRT is a valid line of reasoning, but its arguable NW could easily offset the value of the landing fees with the extra revenue possible on the A350-900.

I don't think LGA matters that entirely much for NW. Their existing schedule to LGA isn't packed full of 753s all day.


I really don't expect NW to order the 7E7. It just doesn't make sense. They have a brand new fleet of A330s, and they're not known to randomly order new types. They're going to want to maximize their existing fleet.

N


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10722 times:

"I really do not think LGA would have anything to do with a NW decision to be honest."

What Im saying is that the 7E7 has a broad line of commanality that includes intercontinental 800 and 900 series as well as short range 300 series aircraft with shorter wing spans which would allow an airline such as NWA to replace their 757s on Domestic routes such as LGA with 7E7-300s as well as operate 7E7-800/900s to fly to places such as Nagoya.

The A330 is pretty much useless to NWA as a Domestic aircraft because it's not optimized for short hops, and it's huge wing span take up too much ramp space at hubs like DTW or small regional business airports such as LGA where NWA currently flies 757s.

The 7E7 fills both critical roles for NWA, thus allowing them to consolidate their fleets to have an aircraft that suits both Domestic routes and Intercontinental routes.

The 7E7-800/900 as mentioned in the article is substantially lighter than the A330/A350, when your charged landing fees at your most important International hub (NRT) by weight the 7E7 offers a huge cost savings.

And having an identical aircraft in your fleet optimized to operate on shorter high frequency hops with a wing span that would allow it to squeeze in with Narrowbodies at DTW or LGA realizes huge savings for an airline like NWA.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKim777fan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10651 times:

Being a Detroiter and an NWA frequent flyer, *NOTHING* would thrill me more than to see the 7E7 wearing the red tail. (Well, maybe if they got a bunch of new 777's, that would REALLY turn my crank!!)

Having said that, I'm just not sure it's going to happen. NWA seems to take a steady approach to growth and they like their fleet commonality. They don't just go jumping out and trip over themselves to get the next latest and greatest big thing. Right now, they're committed to the A330 and that's where I believe they will stay for the foreseeable future.


User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10647 times:

Now I could see it being used on the LAS and LAX sectors out of MSP and DTW. Passengers want frequency more than anything else. That is why there is almost hourly service to LGA. But I have to agree with Gigneil that NW will opt for the A350


Where did everybody go?
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10631 times:
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I have to agree with what others are saying! Considering how long NW keeps its planes flying, then they have no need for the 7E7's. They just now are retiring the DC9-10's.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10610 times:

If NWA orders 7E7s it will be a blow for Airbus , and surely they will never place any A350s in the USA.
I highly doubt NWA will ever place a 7E7 order.
In fact , are they really in a hurry to order new planes ?Not sure..........


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10551 times:

NWA does have a plan for 7E7s beginning in spring of 2039, on Mars.

User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10485 times:

NWA with the 7e7? In the old livery? AWESOME!!!


UAL 777 CONTRAIL


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10423 times:

I think NW will stick with the A332/333 for the foreseeable future for international growth, there should be plenty of reaonably priced second hand airframes available for them to scrounge up as some operators switch from the A332 to the A350. An order anytime soon for the B7e7/A350 class aircraft is highly unlikely, after all, it took them 10+ years to decide they really wanted the A330!

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10363 times:

Without PW engines, the A350 would mean introducing an entirely new engine type from a different manufacturer into NW's fleet. The commonality with the A330 is going to be limited in terms of parts and maintenance. The principal advantage will be limited to cockpit commonality. NW might take a pass and see whether the PW engine will be brought out later on. Regardless, neither the 7E7 or A350 is coming out anytime soon. NW will continue to take the A330's they have ordered and bide their time.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9499 times:

It's naive to think NW are more likely to order the 7e7 over the A350, and the overabundance of these wishful threads demonstrates that deep down, people know it.

The two reasons (well not even that) at the top of this thread, whilst worth flagging up, are trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Has anyone ever thought they might not even desire new aircraft, this is an airline who's still operating pax DC-10's.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9437 times:

NW will drop the DC-10s as soon as it becomes cheaper to operate anything else on routes where they're utilized. Why don't "A.netters" ever get on JAL's case for continuing to operate some equally elderly DC-10s.

[Edited 2005-01-03 14:49:35]

[Edited 2005-01-03 14:51:09]

User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9427 times:
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Without PW engines, the A350 would mean introducing an entirely new engine type from a different manufacturer into NW's fleet.

Seeing that neither the A350 or 7E7 is available with PW engines, NW will have to operate a new engine type if they select either the A350 or 7E7. NW operates plenty on non-PW powered planes, and PW's future in the large civil market looks somewhat questionable.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3025 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9352 times:

Im not starting an A v B war here...

But NW has commited to the A330 for it's long haul routes and replacement for the DC-10 and is just going to be economical operating two different kind of aircraft of the same size within one airline.

NW has never operated the 767 along side the DC-10 and I dont see them operating the 7E7 along side the A330. They would have to have seperate crew rated for both aircraft and maintenance costs would be a lot higher having to support both aircrafts.

If they were to cancel future orders with Airbus that they have committed to the finacial penalties would be severe and I dont see Boeing picking up this cost. Boeing have always said they will never give aircraft away at a loss, like when A and B competed for easyJet's order.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9167 times:

GILESDAVIES..........Not if Boeing pays the penalties for NW.
I like the comment...."Boeing has always said they will never give aircraft away at a loss.." Does that translate that Airbus does?

Just a little brain food for the new year.
About NW or any other other Airbus operator NOT flying the 7E7? Never say never...
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9088 times:

NW is an Airbus customer and they like the product very much from what I understand. As much as I wouls like to see a 7e7 order from them, they will order the A-350 most likely. Airbus would never let that order get away.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Dayflyer - NWA is also a boeing customer. What's your point?



AZJ


User currently offlineBOS2LAF From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8524 times:

I doubt NW will order the 7E7 or A350 anytime soon. For example, look at the DC-9. You can bet NW will operate their A330s til one falls out of the sky just like they're doing with the DC-9.

I for one would be thrilled to see either a/c in the NW fleet, but lets be realistic here, they're obviously tight-fisted with their $$$ when it comes to new a/c orders. The 7E7 will have come and gone before NW even gives a thought to replacing the A330. They'll squeeze every mile they can out of those planes.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8465 times:

I have my doubts NW will buy the 7E7, mostly because they're already committed to the A330 series. I do see NW buying more A330-300's to finally put their DC-10 fleet "out to pasture" by 2010, though.

User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

Azjubilee

My point is that NW has not ordered any Boeing aircraft in some time now. The seem to lean towards Airbus, (all recent orders 319/320/330) and with a commitment to the A-330 already in place, the likely order would be for the A-350 if they order anything at all. I would be very surprised if they ordered the 7e7.

The DC-9 is on it's way out (very slowly being replaced by 319, RJ), the DC-10 is being replaced by A-330; about the only Boeing left is the 747. I would not be too surprised to see that replaced by something from Airbus in the distant future.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineKateAA From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 89 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8376 times:

I would have to agree with those who say that NWA would not buy the Boeing 7E7... They are already flying the Airbus A330 and a friend who works on long haul for them said the passengers seem to like them a lot.

I would have thought that NW would for for the A350, but as we have seen NW does like to get the most out of its aircraft, so what's saying they will nto just stick with the Airbus A330 for 20 odd years!?

Kate


User currently offlineGearup From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 578 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8329 times:

I have my doubts NW will buy the 7E7, mostly because they're already committed to the A330 series. I do see NW buying more A330-300's to finally put their DC-10 fleet "out to pasture" by 2010, though.

I agree, although it is nice to see the DC10 still in service with majors like NWA and JAL. I hope to see 'em for many more years.

GU



I have no memory of this place.
25 Bobnwa : about the only Boeing left is the 747 When did Northwest get rid of its large fleet of 752's and 753's?
26 Ba319-131 : All of the 7E7 orders to date are basically for 767 replacement,the exception being CO,which may still use them to replace the 762 fleet. NW don't ope
27 FCKC : The majority of people in this thread think NWA will not buy 7E7s. If one day (I also think they are not in a hurry to do so), they decide to buy a pl
28 YUL332LX : ''Seeing that neither the A350 or 7E7 is available with PW engines'' We don't know that yet. A second engine supplier will be chosen for the A350 in t
29 Scbriml : We don't know that yet. A second engine supplier will be chosen for the A350 in the next few months, probably RR but it could possibly be P&W. Good po
30 Blsbls99 : Didn't NWA and KLM announce a few months back that they were going to look at the 7E7 for a possible order? I thought I saw this in a few of the trade
31 CEO@AFG : The B747-400 fleet is among the oldest in the world, seeing as NWA was the launch customer for the B744. First deliveries in 1989. Same applies to the
32 FCKC : Blsbls99 Not possible order , but study it , as the A350. Anyway i think they are not in a hurry to order one of them.
33 FCKC : CEO@AFG Think the same as you for the composition of the future NWA fleet ,with a great doubt about A340............
34 Gigneil : I have doubts about the 340 as well. As has been pointed out, the 343 will die a sudden and horrible death as a result of the announcement of the A350
35 Atmx2000 : My point is that NW has not ordered any Boeing aircraft in some time now. They ordered a bunch of Boeing aircraft in 2000-2001, including the 757-300
36 Keesje : "A lot of this hinges, I think, on what Airbus decides to do with Pratt." I seem to remember a Airbus official say they don´t exclude any engine and
37 N328KF : Keesje: I agree that this is one of Pratt & Whitney's last chances to redeem their civil large turbine division. If they don't do that, all they will
38 Azjubilee : Goodnight people! NWA is NOT an all airbus airline. NWA has not signed stupid exclusivity deals with either company. NWA is NOT exclusively a pratt cu
39 777STL : Slightly off topic but I don't see NWA's 744s going anywhere in the distant future. They could keep even their oldest 744s for another twenty years. L
40 YUL332LX : ''IMO it´s more a question if PW wants to retain its market share in this segment & is willing to invest in it.'' Well they were in the race for the
41 Isitsafenow : 777STL couldn't be more correct! NW gets two cycles a day with the 400 and 5,6 and perhaps 8 cycles a day with the DC9. The Northwest 400's will be ar
42 Mtnmanmakalu : Just read in the NWA employee newsletter I got in the mail today that "the DC10's are at the end of their useful life" in terms of costs and customer
43 BlackKnight : Regardless , If NW is in the market for either the A350 or the 7E7 they will set the record for lowest price of whatever type bought. Imagine the bidd
44 Rjpieces : For once, I agree with STT757. NW will have tremendous flexibility if they order the 7E7 and although it will mean introducing a new fleet type, it wi
45 Atmx2000 : I also believe that the Japan landing fees (based on weight) is one of the main reasons why JAL & ANA (and NW) haven't and probably won't order the A3
46 Gigneil : NWA is NOT exclusively a pratt customer NW passed on the 772ER solely because the Pratt powered version sucks. Pretty exclusive sounding to me. My opi
47 Dc10guy : The 7E7 ??? I would have guessed they would go with the 717 to replace their DC9's ....
48 Jetjack74 : Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Airbus doesn't lose money. You're right, because the EU keeps filling their coffers.
49 Post contains images Flyabr : my prediction is that NWA will order A321s to help supplement the 757s and then order A350s to supplement the growing A330 fleet. when it comes time t
50 STT757 : NWA's oldest 757s are 20 years old, by the time the 7E7 is available NWA's oldest 757s will be reaching DC-9 type hours. There currently is no suitabl
51 Sv11 : NWA can replace their DC-10-30 with A330/A350 or order 7E7s. The 7E7 might change the game, just like A330-200 did against the 767. NWA probably order
52 Gigneil : You're right, because the EU keeps filling their coffers. Also crap. If you think the EU just deposits a monthly allowance in EADS' bank account for t
53 STT757 : "Ok, I'm sorry STT757. I like reading your posts a lot but you must be drunk, or have gone crazy." Im not drunk but Im sick as heck, I got a cold or t
54 CRPilot : I hope you feel better STT757, I appreciate the topic you posted as I'm really interested in seeing what will come of this with NW. My two cents is th
55 BIGBlack : Oh f'ing please. NWA will not abandon Boeing
56 FlyABR : Oh f'ing please. NWA will not abandon Boeing well, they pretty much already have...in the last decade or so how many new airbus planes have been deliv
57 Atmx2000 : Well given that NW uses the A320 family for its short/medium range narrow body fleet, it is no surprise that Airbus deliveries exceed Boeing deliverie
58 Rjpieces : I've got a fever so perhaps my mind is running too hot, your right about the 7E7-300 being too big for a 757 replacement but it's still viable domesti
59 RJ111 : The 783 is the size of an A300 for god sake, bigger than a 763. maybe it could be a poor 753 replacement but it would be an absolutely diabolical 752
60 NumberTwelve : 2 reasons NW will order the 7e7 or 2 reasons why you GUESS NW will order the 7e7? Did they order already?
61 Boeing7E7 : One reason they will order it? Long range performance One reason they (and DL) won't until 2007... It hasn't flown yet. Both carriers will order them
62 NumberTwelve : Thanks, Boeing7e7, long answer to a short and simple question: they didn't order a single plane yet and don't have options.
63 Ba319-131 : This post is getting stupid. Let's just face facts as they stand:- As yet,NW do not have aircraft that need replacing with the 7E7. The current/on-ord
64 Rjpieces : The 783 is the size of an A300 for god sake, bigger than a 763. maybe it could be a poor 753 replacement but it would be an absolutely diabolical 752
65 Post contains images Ba319-131 : Trust a kid to reply like that,oh well
66 Flying-Tiger : ... and the chances that the Primaris B7E7s will never fly are higher than anything else. NW will choose what suits them best, given that their modern
67 Burnsie28 : my prediction is that NWA will order A321s to help supplement the 757s and then order A350s to supplement the growing A330 fleet. when it comes time t
68 Rjpieces : Sorry, but I doubt that NW would severely downgrade in aircraft, since the A321 is a very weak and poor peformer compared to the 757. Im sure Boeing i
69 Rjpieces : Trust a kid to reply like that,oh well Uh huh. Why don't you try replying rather than conveniently igorning facts.
70 PlaneSmart : 2x models with bleedless engines does not = commonality. All current B models in production use bleed air, and there is little or no commonality betwe
71 Nrt1011 : Living in Asia (Japan), when I see Northwest I think of two discrete units a) the American entity and b) The Asian entity. My focus is purely on the A
72 Azjubilee : Here's a news flash... NWA isn't actively looking to replace the 757, 319/320 or 744 fleets right now. They're most concerned with the reamining DC10
73 CEO@AFG : Given that the most recent addition to the NW fleet is the A330s and the B753, and that the B757 line is closed, I honestly don't see NW go with Boein
74 Rjpieces : On the flights back to the US, NRT to DTW has 2 744's leaving within 40 mins of each other. If anything they could run a 380 on that route quite easil
75 Nrt1011 : You offer an interesting theory of whether NW will ever bypass their hub in NRT. I guess one can never say never and a 7E7 is of course a theoretical
76 Azjubilee : Nrt - due to capasity limitations and slot limitations at NRt not all interport flying is widebody. There are 3 757s based in NRT to take advantage of
77 Gigneil : Even Boeing has mentioned it as a possible 752 replacement....Nobody is saying that the 7E7-3 will be a perfect 752 replacement, but it appears that i
78 Nyc777 : According to Flight International, and several other analyses, the A350 is far from a subpar offering. I don't think it's a subpar offering but it doe
79 Gigneil : Right, I agree fully with that. I also stand firmly beside NW not needing a plane in the 7E7-3's space in any way shape or form. N
80 RJ111 : It's defintely a 7e9 Competitior, its slightly smaller. IMO it's still an indirect 7e7-800 and to a much lesser extent -300 competitor because of this
81 CEO@AFG : If NW need a plane in the B767/7E7-300 size, Airbus is working on a A300/310 replacement, currently dubbed the A30X. It will be a A300 sized aircraft
82 Nyc777 : IMO it's still an indirect 7e7-800 and to a much lesser extent -300 competitor because of this. The -8 is supposed to seat 217 passengers I believe wh
83 A999 : According to their replacement history I`m not sure they will place an order for some time. When they first got the A320 it wasn`t the perfect one-to-
84 N328KF : A999: I think that's exactly what will happen with most or all of those 20. Primaris is either a speculator, or a stalking horse for someone else. Say
85 Gigneil : I believe whereas the 350-800 is supposed to seat more than 280. It isn't. Its supposed to seat 245. Nobody would argue that the A350 is a competitor
86 Burnsie28 : Airbus would argue that.... Anyway, NRT is not all widebodies, 757's serve Busan, Guangzhou, and Nagoya.
87 DeltaWings : The 783 is the size of an A300 for god sake, bigger than a 763. maybe it could be a poor 753 replacement but it would be an absolutely diabolical 752
88 Boeing7E7 : The 739 replaces the 752. The 7E7 replaces the 753, 762, 763 and 764.
89 Atmx2000 : This 7E7-7 would be the same size as the B762/B753 and therefore be a good replacement. Do airlines really want a widebody in the 762/A310 capacity ra
90 Rj111 : The 7E7 replaces the 753, 762, 763 and 764 To be honest, i think it might be too big for the 753 and 762 too. its roughly 33% larger than the 753 and
91 CEO@AFG : This is what I know about the A30X project, it was mentioned in Oct26-Nov1 issue of Flight International "The European manufacturer revealed last year
92 DeltaWings : Do airlines really want a widebody in the 762/A310 capacity range with really long range? Don't know, since Boeing is not offering it, but maybe it co
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