Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Us Airlines With Routes Out Of The US  
User currently offlineJuanchie From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 190 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4820 times:

I know AA operates certain routes in the carribean between countries that do not include the US. Is it difficult for a US based airline to receive clearnce to operate scheduled flights between two countries and neither of them being the US? ie... AA operating KJFK-SDQ-MEX?


Juanchie


God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4798 times:

I know AA operates certain routes in the carribean between countries that do not include the US. Is it difficult for a US based airline to receive clearnce to operate scheduled flights between two countries and neither of them being the US? ie... AA operating KJFK-SDQ-MEX?

It depends on the country. It is very difficult to get 5th freedom rights from Mexico, though. They are very strict.

For reference, AA's 5th freedom routes:

Buenos Aires-Montevideo
Sao Paulo-Asuncion
St. Lucia-Canouan Island
Bridgetown-Canouan Island
Santo Domingo-Antigua
Santo Domingo-St. Maarten
Antigua-Nevis

With the exception of BGI-CIW, all of these routes started in 2004. AA operated a much larger intra-Caribbean network before September 2001, when they merged almost all their operations back into San Juan. They also restarted St. Thomas-St. Croix service this past Monday, but that is a domestic flight that required no special approval, since both STT and STX are in the US.

Also, in the early 1990s when AA was still young in Latin America, many destinations from Miami were operated together, and AA maintained fifth freedom rights on routes such as Cali-Guayquil.

[Edited 2005-01-05 04:19:59]


a.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4782 times:

Two of the biggest operations using 5th freedom rights are UA and NW in NRT. Both of them have 5th freedom rights from Japan to most countries in Asia. NW's rights date back to the 50s when aviation was being established in Japan, and UA got its rights from its buyout of Pan Am's Pacific operations. UA and NW are the only two US airlines that have these 5th freedom rights from Japan, and both carriers make extensive use of them by operating a hub/focus city at NRT. It is very difficult to get rights like this. No other US airline has been able to do so.

There are also some examples in Europe. US carriers in the past have had full rights out of some countries in Europe and TWA and Pan Am both operated short haul flights within Europe. Later airlines like UA and DL operated flights within europe, but today most of this is gone since there are smaller planes flying nonstop from the US rather than having passengers connect in LHR, CDG or FRA. The days of having 747s fly between JFK and LHR/CDG/FRA and having all the passengers connect on both sides are gone. Demand for transatlantic travel has gone up, so double connections are no longer necessary. There still are some examples of through flights though, like DL with CDG-BOM and NW with AMS-BOM. Now that aviation is well established in the entire world, fifth freedom rights aren't used as much. Carriers like Qantas and Pan Am that flew across the Pacific in the old days were some of the only flights around, so they had fifth freedom rights that brought aviation to some smaller locations and countries that did not have their own carriers capable of crossing the ocean. But nowadays almost every single country has its own airlines so the need for US carriers to span the oceans has dwindled. It is really a fascinating subject to look into.

[Edited 2005-01-05 04:14:37]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4775 times:

DL still retains its 5th freedoms to India:

CDG-BOM, FRA-BOM, and soon CDG-MAA



NW flies to BOM from AMS, as well as its plentiful Japanese 5th freedoms alongside UA


User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4754 times:

What about Continential Micronesia operations? While most of the flights orginate at USA territories or Hawaii state, there are some ops between non-USA territories to Asian locations and Non-USA island nations or territories. For many years TWA and PanAm operated smaller connecting aircraft (727's for example) and routes within Europe, and from Europe to the Middle East, Africa locations.

User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4744 times:

Is UA 805/806 HKG-SIN-HKG still going? I know this flight continued to SFO in 2003...

Back in the 80's I used to travel LHR-DEL with Pan Am. Can't remember whether the flight operated via FRA though.

Feroze

[Edited 2005-01-05 04:24:27]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32176 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4739 times:

Is UA 805/806 HKG-SIN-HKG still going? I know this flight continued to SFO in 2003...

It was discontinued after September 11th, but has since resumed as UA 895/896 and continues to O'Hare (SIN-NRT continues to SFO).

They also now operate HKG-SGN.



a.
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4730 times:

Oh, don't forget UA1 and UA2 which were their RTW flights - discontinued after Sept 11. Routing varied but I remember LAX-IAD-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX and vv. Plenty of 5th Freedom there!


Feroze


User currently offlineJuanchie From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4685 times:

Perfect explanation, thanks. I was wondering how this whole thing worked and you explained it perfectly. How hard is it to get fifth freedom rights? For instance, could DL or NW just apply for the rights to fly between any two cities and who gives out these fifth freedom rights?

Juanchie



God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

Pan Am used to fly from Frankfurt to numerous others cities in Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa. While theyt were allowed to carry local traffic on most flights, on some they could not. These included FRA-BUD, FRA-ATH, Frankfurt-Zagreb, and Frankfurt-Belgrade.

Pan Am also had routings such as Rio De Janiero-Buenos Aires, where they allowed local traffic, but Heathrow-Oslo where they did not. When I get an opportunity I'll try and list all of the PA fifth freedom flights.

[Edited 2005-01-05 14:14:09]

User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4599 times:

"What about Continential Micronesia operations? While most of the flights orginate at USA territories or Hawaii state, there are some ops between non-USA territories to Asian locations and Non-USA island nations or territories."

I'm curious about this as well.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

I flew PA MVD-GIG, and continued back to New York about 10 days later. Would that be considered "5th Freedom"?

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Would that be considered "5th Freedom"?

It would all depend how the flight operated, how the ticket was sold, and the rights PA held on the route.

These are the Freedoms of the Skies:

1st Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to fly over the territory of another country without landing.

2nd Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to land in another country for nontraffic reasons, such as maintenance or refueling, while en route to another country.

3rd Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to carry traffic from its country of registry to another country.

4th Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to carry traffic from another country to its own country of registry.

5th Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to carry traffic between two countries outside of its own country of registry as long as the flight originates or terminates in its own country of registry (i.e. "beyond rights").

6th Freedom: The right of an airline of one country to carry traffic between two foreign countries via its own country of registry. This freedom combines the 3rd and 4th freedoms. A modified 6th Freedom exists when two separate tickets are issued under 3rd and 4th freedoms, instead of a through ticket.

7th Freedom: The right of an airline to operate stand-alone services, entirely outside the territory of its home state, to carry traffic between two foreign states.

8th Freedom: The right of an airline to carry traffic between two points within the territory of a foreign state (i.e. "cabotage").

Cheers.

Edit: I should have added - these freedoms are negotiated for the most part, not universally granted.

[Edited 2005-01-05 16:40:28]


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineA999 From Norway, joined Mar 2004, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Pan Am (and later United) had 5th freedom on their RTW flights except for the LHR-HKG sector. That was reserved for BA and CX. I flew PA2 many years ago and had to re-check in at FRA. My bags were checked through though!

Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Us Airways Routes Out Of LGA posted Sun Sep 24 2006 01:48:18 by ANNOYEDFA
Air Jamaica Pulling Out Of 3 US Cities? posted Thu Jul 21 2005 13:11:52 by Reggaebird
What Are The Current Routes-Md11's Of US Carriers posted Tue Mar 16 2004 20:29:22 by Mirrodie
American Airlines's Routes Out Of CLE posted Thu Feb 26 2004 04:33:34 by TriJetFan1
How About Want Pulled TSA Out Of The US Airports? posted Sat May 10 2003 19:12:44 by ScottysAir
American Airlines New 737-800 Routes Out Of D/FW posted Fri Feb 21 2003 01:06:26 by Fuelhog
Eastern & National Routes Out Of PVD In The '70s posted Fri Jul 12 2002 21:02:56 by John
What Does CX Get Out Of The Relationship With CI? posted Thu May 30 2002 16:08:38 by Bobcat
What Country Has More Cities Served Out Of US? posted Thu Apr 25 2002 20:06:00 by MX-757
Is Anything Out Of The Worldliner's Reach? posted Tue Oct 17 2006 23:44:14 by Charliejag1