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Biman Plan For 2 More Planes Shot Down  
User currently offlineAirbusCanada From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 326 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4978 times:

Cabinet body asks it to come up with restructuring plan first
http://www.thedailystar.net/2005/01/06/d5010601011.htm

The government yesterday rejected a proposal to purchase two planes and avail a host of facilities for Biman Bangladesh Airlines, saying it will halt all investments until Biman comes up with a restructuring plan, meeting sources said.

At a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs, policymakers blasted Biman authorities for its poor performance.


They observed that Biman should be made efficient and commercially viable by reducing its excess manpower, stopping flying on loss-making routes and increasing profits on some routes in partnership with other leading airlines.


Chaired by Finance and Planning Minister M Saifur Rahman, the meeting noted the 5,232-strong Biman has 14 aircraft, meaning there are 373 people for every aircraft, which is needless, meeting sources said.


On Dhaka-New York route, Biman counts Tk 50 lakh in loss for each flight on average. In the last three years, Biman incurred a loss of Tk 144 crore on this route.


Biman's service is very poor; when people go to ticket counters, they are told that there are no tickets. Yet flights take off with half the seats empty, which is why Biman badly needs restructuring, the meeting observed.


It purchased two old aircraft in recent months despite media reports against such procurement. Both planes failed to perform in the first week of their operations. Now Biman has sent a fresh proposal to the economic affairs committee to buy an Airbus and a Boeing 777.

The proposal also sought that the government make it mandatory for public servants to travel by Biman.

The government should give Biman a rebate of Tk 130 crore against its arrears for purchase of jet fuel, reduce the price of jet fuel, compensate Tk 21 crore loss incurred during hajj flights because of low ticket fare fixed by the government and reduce the arrears payment installments with the Bangladesh Petroleum Corporation down to Tk 5 crore from Tk 15 crore.


Biman claimed that it has made an operating profit of Tk 17.57 crore during 2003-04. But Saifur said, "Biman lacks efficiency. If it does not operate commercially, it will be very hard to keep it afloat. This is business, so if they cannot run it as business, they should close it down."

State Minister for Civil Aviation Mir Nasir Uddin explained the ticket dilemma of Biman. "We took steps against non-sale of Biman tickets when there were lots of tickets unsold. There were some improvements, but those steps could not be fully implemented."

"We will come up with a restructuring plan. But unless we have new aircraft, we will not have passenger growth," he maintained.


27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

And people complain about Indian bureaucracy!

For those unaware, 1 lakh=100,000 and 1 crore=10,000,000

Feroze


User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4910 times:

For those unaware, 1 lakh=100,000 and 1 crore=10,000,000
Great, thanks ! but what ? Euro, Pound, USD ?


User currently offlineAirbusCanada From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4878 times:

Exchange rate

1 USD=59.00 taka

17.57 corer taka=about 3.0 million.

And people complain about Indian bureaucracy.

biman usually takes 4/5 years to make a decision, I dont' know if its better or worse than AI/IC.



[Edited 2005-01-05 19:44:21]

User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

That was the headline of the piece quoted....

Feroze


User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4751 times:

Another story which shows us how things are running with Biman Bangladesh.

When studying their European network and frequencies you already note, that there has something to be wrong ...!

However, I would have loved to fly on a Biman 777!



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

The problem with the aviation bureaucracy in Bangladesh (and probably in many other places) is that it thinks of its role as simply managing the status quo, regardless of what is right or wrong with that; in many cases they don't even try to envision a different future. A case in point. A friend of mine runs a large company there, and was one of the first people to get permission for a private company plane in the country, which he now uses to shuttle in between CGP and DAC. It took years to do. At one point during the approval process, a very high ranking aviation official told my friend in a meeting, "The problem with giving you permission to do this is, what happens when everyone else wants to fly a private company plane?" "Wouldn't that be amazing?!" my friend replied, talking about the landing fees, fuel sold, maintenance work created, among other sources of productivity. The official would not concur. He thought it would merely mean more work for him. So the flaws run deep. The bureaucracy does not have the vigor, initiative or motivation to believe in progress, and thereby stalls the country's growth.


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineCapri From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 449 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

I was told by a friend of mine that flew JFK-AMS i believe long ago on biman that after takeoff the crew turned off lights and told people to go to sleep as there is no food onboard because the airline couldn't afford it? Well that will tell how the airline is run, i think it's sinking faster than the land. sorry to say this but it's true since all people of bangladesh are seeking homes and refuge elsewhere, so what's the point for the airline to get its act together.

User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4495 times:
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I have not heard anything about the food incident (they are more solvent than that, usually) but the Finance Minister has a valid point.

The flight from JFK to DAC is usually quite full. BG pricing is about the same as EK and BA, and much higher than GF, QR and MH. There are 100,000 Bangladeshi expatriates in the New York area, and another 100,000 in the US. There are some Bangladeshis who will not use anything other than Biman as it is direct and has Bengali speaking crew. Yet, the airline loses money in this route.

While some in the government (and ironically the Aviation Minister) complains about Biman, the government also keeps Biman afloat -- and mostly at the cost to the consumer and other Bangladeshi carrier. One reason may be that the same government officials make money through corruption, and others like the fact that they can travel on the airline as their own personal limos. Ministers are known to essentially take aircraft out of regular routing (or delay schedules) to accommodate their own travel plans.

In the meantime, while the demand for Middle East seats keep rising, the government won't allow more flights by EK, QR, EY, KU and GF and even Bangladeshi private carrier GMG. Even after kicking Biman's butt on the domestic routes (although their fares are much higher), GMG is not allowed to fly without government permission -- which availed 5 weekly flights to CCU over five years. By preventing GMG from competing on a level playing field, the government has stymied the growth of the private sector -- which could have yielded more competition and better choices to consumers. While the winds of change blows one way across the globe, the government of Bangladesh is going the other. It is a real shame.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4363 times:

Naturally u will have BG losing money flying a 300 seater DC 10-30 on the JFK route as the operating costs of it are huge plus with an ageing aircraft.

DAC-DEL-BRU-JFK

What BIMAN needs is a TOTAL MAKEOVER right from the DC 10s to the F28s!!!

They need planes capable of flying to EU/UK nonstop to compete effectively with BA and not fly to LHR via DXB.

It doesnt need anything fancy...used MD11s or B 772ERs would do just fine for the airline.

The main problem is that the speed at which things change for the better in BG is worse than AI and PK put together  Big grin


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4348 times:

Swissgabe, a Biman T7 is almost as unlikely as NW sells its DC 9


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User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4322 times:

Well, isn't that what a lot of people said about AI as well? And how about AirLankas L1011?  Big grin
Maybe it not yet time, but one day

Behramjee
Another thing I really don't understand is, why Biman flies following routing:
DAC-JED-FCO-FRA/FRA-DAC D10
DAC-DXB-FCO-ORY/ORY-DAC D10
How can you fly one way with two stops and the other nonstop!? Wouldn't that mean, that technical it would be possible to fly non-stop from DAC to PAR and FRA? Even if that wouldn't be possible they should route DAC-DXB-ORY/FRA etc.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4199 times:
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Hi Gabe,

BG has had similar routing for years -- and that's because someone who has no common sense is in charge for flight planning.

I have written articles, spoke to folks, discussed in aviation forums about this. Yet, of course, Biman officials never see this.

Here is what Biman could do, even before getting new aircraft:

Consolidate it's European points to two stations outside London:

1) FCO and FRA or ORY or even BRU. Very few people today want to fly on an airline that has only one weekly frequency and dedicate the second frequency to that station. Routing could be DAC-FCO-BRU. DAC-BRU-JFK should continue....the range for the DC-10-30ER has sufficient range for DAC-BRU non-stop. By consolidating to one point, BG does not have to run 3 offices -- and can focus all efforts in that one city. BRU, having the fewest flights to Asia and North America (as compared to FRA and ORY) and also being the airport from which BG has rights to JFK, may be a good place for BG to operate to/from.

2) Get at least one other frequency to NRT. Currently, the routing is DAC-BKK-NRT, and the inbound crew stays for a whole week before taking the NRT-BKK route. What a waste. Also, given the increasing number of Bangladeshis in Korea, maybe the route could be DAC-SEL-NRT and twice a week.

3) Streamline Mid-East routes:
Here are some examples: DAC-BAH-KWI-CGP-DAC. Now, think about the poor passenger who is going from Bahrain to DAC -- she flies north to Kuwait, then South on to Chittagong and then to Dhaka -- and get there almost 10 hours after they set off - whereas the non-stop is 5 hours only. Anyway, ME routes are better than before -- there were routes such as DAC-DXB-BAH-DOH-DAC and other crazy "somewhat" triangular routes.

4) Make frequencies daily (and at the same time) on domestic routes.
While this is becoming pretty much a standard in international routes, Biman has domestic schedules that are scattered all over. I spoke to businessmen in Bangladesh, and they say that one of the advantages that GMG has over Biman (other than punctuality, clean cabin, higher customer service), is that they know that no matter what day, they can take a flight to CGP or ZYL as at 8:00 in the morning and no matter what day, take the 8pm back. With Biman, the morning flight may be 8:00 on Mon, Tue, Thurs, and 9:30 on Wed and Fri and so on.

And of course, keep the flights on time -- what good is it to streamline anything if you can't stick to it?

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc



User currently offlineAirbusCanada From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Here is a summary of what happen with biman’s new aircraft procurement in the last few years mostly based on a number of article published on two aviation publication of Bangladesh. The one is http://www.bangladeshmonitor.net/ and the other one is aviator section of the http://www.weeklyholiday.net/. Unfortunately the search function don’t’ work on none of these publications.

During the previous govt's term, Biman selected the 772ER as the replacement for their DC-10. Boeing company officials flew into Dhaka to sing the MOU for leasing (with option to purchase) two 772ER. However at the last moment, Boeing sales person wanted $200,000 consulting fee for doing the fleet planning for Biman. Since the amounts demanded by the Boeing official were more than the board can approve, the matter went to the cabinet. Unfortunately for Boeing, there was a government change b4 the consulting fee could be approved. After the new govt took over, Airbus offered to do fleet planning for biman free of charge. So Boeing made a counter offer to do the fleet planning for free too. After the completion of fleet companies by both Airbus and Boeing , they made some offer. Boeing recommended the same plane(772ER), but airbus offered a mix of widebodies and narorwbodies. (332/300 and 320). However, boeing offered a price of $117M for 772ER, airbus offered $91M for 332 and $106 M for 306. (Higher price for 306 compared to 332 could be a type error). The cabinet suppose to approve purchase of atleast two 332 (because it cheaper), and the file went upto a joint secretary in the civil aviation ministry for a decision. Now looks like finance Minister himself is unhappy with biman. Looks like Biman needs another government change to get new aircraft.


On a side note, looks like GMG started Dhaka-Kolkata flight without any fanfare on dec 31st.


User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3960 times:

Planemannyc
Looks good to me. I anyway wonder, why BG flies into NRT. Maybe because Japan is providing a lot of donations in Bangladesh?

Right, frequencies are very important it really looks like they are in need of some schedule planers.

Regarding point 1 I still feel that FRA could be a very important destination for BG.

AirbusCanada
I think Z5 started into CCU already some month ago, but I might be wrong on that.

I hope 306 is not a typo of 346 ... That would be cool, BG to fly around with 346!



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3944 times:

Its interesting to note that BG flies to NRT once a week...the cabin crew assigned to this flight must be loving it as they get a week's holiday in NRT with 4-5 star hotel + daily allowance  Big grin

Replacing DC 10-30s with A 332s is PRACTICALLY UNHEARD OF and I dont know any airline in the 1990s that has made such a move...not even MD11s were replaced by A 332s by any airline!!! U replace a DC 10-30 by an A 343 or B 772ER period!!! If The DAC cabinet wants to buy Airbus planes because theyre cheaper, then the fools should just order B 764ERs and B 762ERs to replace DC 10s and A 310s for fleet commonality purposed :-P

The price offer of $ 117 million by Boeing for a single B 772ER to BG is $ 1 million less than what PIA paid for the B 772ERs.

As for why BG flies via DXB to Europe, well it has done so for many years already + they have 5th freedom traffic rights on the DXB-FCO route and I believe that theyre the cheapest to fly from DXB to FCO nonstop. However I dont know if BG has the same right on the JED-FCO route.

Swissglabe...BG isnt the only stupid airline to fly such horribly/insanely structured routes to Europe...PIA too have some sort of similar routing to MXP, CDG, OSL etc from Pak. The reason why BG fly the return segment nonstop ORY/FRA-DAC is because they dont have 5th freedom rights on inter-EU routes and therefore it would be a total waste flying back the same way, paying for landing / airport fees / refuelling etc when ORY/FRA-DAC can easily be flown nonstop by a DC 10-30ER!!!

As for BGs Gulf routes, there is SO SO MUCH POTENTIAL to be exploited...for DAC to be Kuwait Airways's one of its top 10 most profitable routes just shows what sort of $$$ can be made if the operations were handled well. Emirates too mints $$$ on DAC and I hear that BA does too with the nonstop flights. I read something last summer that BA expressed interested in flying to some unknown city in Bangladesh starting with a "S" as that is where the majority of Benagli immigrant families based in UK are from??? What is the name of that city? please  Smile

What BG has failed to capitalize on is to maintain a small scale hub at CGP solely for Gulf flights to AUH/DXB/JED/RUH/KWI/BKK as traffic levels from CGP to these cities is enormous and ppl will pay a little bit more if it was a nonstop flight to CGP instead of a 2-3 stop!!! Doesnt Phuket Air do very well on the CGP-DXB-CGP route with B 742s?


User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3925 times:

Behramjee,

The name you're looking for is Sylhet.

Feroze


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Yes thats the city's name BA is interested to fly to nonstop from London but DAC and BG have refused them permission.

Thank you Feroza  Smile


User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Behramjee
Biman doesn't have traffic rights on the JED-FCO route. Even a DXB-something route doesn't help if it is only oneway.
No doubt it is normal to operate a triangle with two European cities. But I just was wondering why they skip the DXB stop on one direction if they have traffic rights there.
Another airline I know having a similar "strategy" in Europe might be Iran Air.

I would love to see SriLankan Airlines back in DAC, but at the moment, there are some other priorities I think.

Just one other question, isn't there a lot of traffic from DEL/BOM to DAC since BG only has few flights there? I know CCU is important, but what about DEL and BOM?



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3821 times:
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Gabe,

While there is a lot of interest for Indians to travel to B'desh and Bangladeshis going to India, the respective governments can be blamed for keeping the number of air passengers low.

First, there is the visa problem. I have heard that the Indian High Commission (fancy name for an embassy within the Commonwealth) is stingy when it comes to giving visas to Bangladeshis, and the Bangladeshi side is hardly any better. It was only in the last few weeks that Bangladesh allowed multiple entry visa to Indians to travel from Agartala to Kolkata (points in India whose shortest distance is separated by Bangladesh). I still feel that Bangladesh could overcome this hurdle by unilaterally allowing visa on arrival for Indians and promoting that fact. Let's face it, despite all the regional animosity, the Indian middle class is growing fast, and they like to travel. Open your doors and take the tourist dollars (or rupees)...look at Sri Lanka -- how it has paid off handsomely for them.

Of all the regions in the world, given the vast population, I feel South Asia is by far the worst in terms of routes between each country. There are so few flights, and the governments seem to artificially keep the figures down. I site Pakistan's refusal to allow private Indian carriers to fly between Pakistan and India, Bangladesh's foot dragging in allowing GMG rights to fly to India. Just see the number of flights a week between these neighbors -- you will find relative to their populations, all other parts of the world has more flights-- Eastern Europe and Africa included.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3777 times:

Wasim
I agree regarding the aviation situation between those countries in South Asia. But doesn't India and Bangladesh have an open sky policy as well?
SriLankan Airlines eg. is really focusing on Indian routes, 10 at the moment and to expect more this year.

I wonder how Phuket Air was able to optain rights to fly from CGP to DXB!



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineB-HOP From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2000, 630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

Behramjee

'I dont know any airline in the 1990s that has made such a move...not even MD11s were replaced by A 332s by any airline'

That is what Swissair did (at least partially', whether is worthwhile is debatable.

Kev



Live life to max!!!
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3706 times:
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While Bangladesh and India are negotiating rights, I believe they have only 30 flights a week limit for designated carriers from each country. Of course, Bangladesh is approaching the max -- 28 flights from DAC to DEL, CCU, BOM and CGP to CCU on both BG and Z5 -- whereas IC has only 3 flights from CCU to DAC. Jet and Sahara were planning on starting DAC service, but may now instead go after more lucrative services to Europe and Southeast Asia. I wish all countries in SAARC would allow open skies within the association.

The Bangladesh government is very aware and very afraid of BA, EK, QR trying to fly to CGP and ZYL -- although a big chunk of travelers from London to Bangladesh actually go to ZYL and similar case for both MidEast traffic go to CGP and ZYL. Biman obviously has the monopoly on both. That would make Z5 a purchase target by overseas airlines, I would think -- but I guess the regional airline buying sprees of the 1990s are over (I think up to 49% of an airline can be sold under Bangladeshi laws).

As for Phuket Air, they exploited the Bangladesh-Thailand air agreement. Biman has rights to fly to points east of Bangkok, and in response, Thai airlines have the right to fly points west of Bangladesh (Thai many years ago used to fly 4x weekly on BKK-DAC-DEL with full rights). Phuket saw an unmet demand, and applied for the slots, and had a coup in their hand. Now they have a higher capacity on CGP-DXB than Biman! I hear they are planning on flying between CGP-JED as well.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Wasim,

The Pak and Indian govts played an equal role in not allowing their respective private airlines to fly to each other's cities. PIA makes a huge profit out of its DEL and BOM flights and doesnt want any sort of competition on the routes. Infact before DEL got suspended in Jan 02 due to the Indian Parliament, it was the #6 most profitable route for PIA. It is worth mentioning that PIA carries 100s of Indians on every flight via LHE or KHI to the Gulf, UK, USA, YYZ and EU as Indians dont need transit visa for PAK but PAKs need for India thus depriving AI and IC of Pakistanis flying them via BOM/DEL to the rest of the world.

As as Phuket Air exploiting the DAC-BKK bilateral aggrement, it was well thought of and they should look into more Gulf routes nonstop from CGP.

B-Hop...SWISS never intended to replace MD11s with A 332s...the A 343s were the official replacement aircraft and were always going to be once the A 332s were ordered.

Yes if DAC govt enables Indians to get visas within 3-4 business days or better yet on arrival, then yes it stands to gain big time through Indian tourism and business which is just now exploiting similar benefits extended to them in Sri Lanka and Nepal. Infact KTM, is one of the favourite places for Indian honeymooners and tourists flying within the region.




User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3498 times:

If the gov't. limited rights merely in order to protect Biman's growth into a world class airline, with the idea of then one day lifting restrictions to allow for full competition between a healthier Biman and carriers such as BA, EK and other big players, then I suppose I could understand the protectionist strategy as part of a development process. But there is only a maintenance strategy here, no planning for the future. The bureaucrats see the situation on their hands as the one that will exist in the future, with no idea to do anything different. Given the under the table money that many of them make from the system, they don't have any initiative to do so either. They will merely say that Bangladesh is a poor country, and one which doesn't have the resources to do the grown up thing of allowing for fair market competition. Actually Bangladesh is in my mind and experience not so much poor as poorly managed, and is capable of so much, airline-wise and elsewhere. This represent a total failure of imagination of the government.


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
25 Post contains images Planemannyc : The government of Bangladesh does not have a good record of running companies. The situation is not like Singapore where the company -- although techn
26 Post contains images Behramjee : Wasim...your recent post seems to be the same type of stuff that our good ol ROY aka Indianguy would write if this topic was concerning Air India hehe
27 Planemannyc : Behramjee - Well, that's a nice compliment. I, however, feel I am more pessimistic than Roy! Best, Wasim / Planemannyc
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