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First European 7E7 Customer?  
User currently offlineBoeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 54
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

Ok I was wondering who will be the first Major European Carrier to place a firm order for the 7e7. So far it's CO, JL, NZ, VN, & NH. (God I hope that is correct) I do understand that Blue Panorama a charter service has placed a order for (4) and that First Choice placed a order for (6) and know they fly charter and scheduled service also. Just curious has to thoughts on who will be the first major European legacy carrier to fly the 7e7.


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7056 times:

I'm pulling for LH. Would suit them very well for their current route structure and fleet age.


Regards,
AA777jr

[Edited 2005-01-06 08:25:31]

User currently offlineRjpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7041 times:

BA, AZ, LH, and LOT are all possibilities. Although LH has raised some objections about the 7E7 not having sidesticks, I still think they will go for it since there is no other plane that can replace their A300s.

User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1101 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7066 times:

Possible LOT, Finnair, Alitalia, Thomsonfly??, Lauda, maybe SAS, Martinair & also possibly another European charter.


Now you're really flying
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7025 times:

Probably British Airways goes for the B7E7, as a B767 replacement. They could use it both on long haul and certain European routes - a task which cannot be done by A330s or A350s.
BA is a candidate for some hot orders...B7E7, B773ER, A380.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

And we shouldn't forget Lufthansa. They really need a A300 replacement for European and domestic routes. Only the B7E7 seems to be a perfect option. It would also be an addition, not a rival, to the current A333 fleet on medium and long haul routes.

I would rule out Air France and KLM. But Alitalia comes to mind as well - B767 replacement...but they need some cash first...  Wink/being sarcastic

Anyways, I see great chances for the B7E7 with European legacy carriers. Simply because Airbus is not able to offer a B7E7-3 rival.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7006 times:

Lufthansa's sidestick demand may be a problem - but if there's no other alternative they have to accept the yoke. Maybe they are wildly talking to Boeing about a yoke-to-sidestick conversion option? Technically it should be possible - and other airlines certainly would prefer sidesticks too.

Anyways, the MD-11 is also yoke-controlled and LH Cargo found it to be the perfect freighter. Let's wait and see.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineBMI701EGCC From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6904 times:

The TUI group could invest in the 7e7, a good bet for me.
LH and AF is also an possibility.


Scott Waterworth
BMI701EGCC



G-PATI-"G-PATI, Back inbound to Barton"MCT APR-"G-PATI, Continue, Keep lookout on VFR traffic"
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6853 times:

Didn't a netter write that LH isn't reliable and they only are negotiating and don't buy Boeing planes?
If so, Boeing shouldn't negotiate with LH, B can afford it  Wink/being sarcastic

I guess it will take some time that the big European carrier will buy the 7e7 - there is no need to hurry and they will wait for more details of the 350.

[Edited 2005-01-06 10:47:02]


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User currently offlineReady4Pushback From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

From what I see on the news, I would have thought that BA wouldn't have the cash to be in the running for ordering the 7E7. I would love to see it - but isn't it wishful thinking?

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6562 times:

I am one of those who believes that there is close to zero chance that Lufthansa will buy a Boeing airplane in the foreseeable future. Lufthansa has become a de-facto pure Airbus customer which is a perfectly fine way of running a business.

However, the increasingly hollow insistence by Lufthansa that they do not rely on a single supplier needs to be taken with a cup of salt or two.

I think the leading candidates would be British Airways and KLM. They are both longtime Boeing customers that do not yet have A330s in the fleet. KLM could probably sell off delivery positions if it wanted to and get a good deal on the 7E7. BA has kept 767s on the lot for a while and they could have replaced them with A330 already. I think the 7E7 has a decent shot with both companies.


User currently offlineQuestAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

In my opinion, BA, LH, and Lauda would make the best fits for the 7E7. AF has already got a new batch of A330s.


'Do we carry rich people on our flights? Yes, I flew on one this morning and I�m very rich.' - Michael O'Leary
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4745 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6456 times:

Alitalia has in the passed publicly stated their intent on buying the 7E7. Funds may not be there, but look for the sharkfin to fly someday in the 'tricolore' bandera di Alitalia!

While the A350 may be looked at, IMHO it won't be ordered. AZ is intent on building up their 777 fleet (they have had exceptional results with the aircraft).

Additionally, Alitalia remains committed to Boeing as its sole long-haul aircraft supplier.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6486 times:

LAUDA will not get any 7E7 because their is no Lauda-Air anymore.

FlyNiki (his new Airline) won´t also as they just have ordered several A32X

OS will go for another 772ER rather then for a 7E7.
AY will go all Airbus, AZ won´t as they have no money.
LH......i would bet a 50 cent that they will.
AF will not, rather go for some 777.


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4745 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

OHLHD-

I wouldn't be too surprised if you see AZ ordering quite soon....  Smile



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6395 times:

With LH sidestick demands, would it be possible for Boeing to have one as an option on the aircraft? I'm sure it would attrack other operators as well.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

And we shouldn't forget Lufthansa. They really need a A300 replacement for European and domestic routes. Only the B7E7 seems to be a perfect option. It would also be an addition, not a rival, to the current A333 fleet on medium and long haul routes.

I doubt this. Remember that LH is very slot restricted in FRA and hopes that the new runway will come. If it comes, they might replace many regional widebodies by narrowbodies to increase frequency. It might be wise to keep the A300s until we know if the new runway will come or not.

Furthermore, the 7e7 would kill their commonality concept while the A350 would perfectly integrate into the A330/A340 fleet.

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

If you were an airline, you might consider a potential 20% reduction in operating costs for a particular aircraft to be the second coming of Christ.

They might, but unfortunately the 7e7 wont even offer anywhere near 20% lower operating costs over a 763.

[Edited 2005-01-06 16:43:11]

User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5733 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

They might, but unfortunately the 7e7 wont even offer anywhere near 20% lower operating costs over a 763.

I hope you're prepared to eat those words when it does. Want mustard with that?  Insane



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

N328...: "If you were an airline, you might consider a potential 20% reduction in operating costs for a particular aircraft to be the second coming of Christ."

The key word is potential - are these 20 % fact? They can't be fact yet. And why should the airlines decide already? There are 2 competitors, one of them promises 20 % less fuel but there is no fact (yet or maybe the 20 % are overstated).

So time is working for airline's desission



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User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6190 times:

Numbertwelve:

So what the other competitor promises is fact?


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

Nyc777, out of interest, do you think fuel costs are the same as operating costs?  Wink/being sarcastic

Want me to pass you the mustard?

[Edited 2005-01-06 17:28:58]

User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

@LMP - ooops, did I make you angry?
I didn't say that, it's just the fact that the 20 % are on a sheet of paper and looks good. But a promise at the moment - nothing more.

If I said something about a holy cow, please excuse me.  Wink/being sarcastic

But why should airlines believe a marketing campain?



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User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Numbertwelve:

No not really, I'm actually quite laid back. Takes a lot to get me worked up.

When you said "There are 2 competitors, one of them promises 20 % less fuel but there is no fact (yet or maybe the 20 % are overstated" one could interpret that as one being fact and the other just guess work. Guess the proper statement would have been "One promises xx% and the other promises xx%". Hope I didn't throw you a curve ball.  Big grin

P.S. I guess you meant to say "sacred cow".


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6059 times:

@LMP: It wasn't me who was talking about the potential 20 %, and the guy who mentioned it, only was talking about the B 20 %.
But to calm you down, I don't have a problem to change my reply to your x-versions. On the other hand, A350 will roll out in 2009 and in the meantime 7e7 are already flying. So the B promise already can be checked.

And yes, I wrote holy cow and mean sacred cow, didn't know the different wording for "holy cow" - translated each single word.  Wink/being sarcastic

If you were customer, LMP, and there is no urgent need to buy new planes at the moment, would you hurry? Wouldn't you want to wait till the first experiences from minimum 1 plane model would appear.

[Edited 2005-01-06 18:05:24]


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User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8217 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6006 times:

Even if it comes up to 20% cheaper operating cost, much of it will be offset by the high cost of a brand new 7E7 vs. an A330/350 or used 767. Not to mention the addition of a whole new type to the fleet. There's no way LH will buy the 7E7 when they can get a cheaper alternative. Not because they'll never buy Boeing, as someone said, which is a false statement based on the large number of Boeing aircraft that they operate.

BA is very likely to be one of the very few European airlines to buy the 7E7. The 7E7 was not made for the European market in the same way the A380 was not made for the American market. The geographic location of most European countries and the congestion at their airports does not favor an aircraft like the 7E7 for their airlines. Add to it that some of the countries in question are highly invested in Airbus, and you have a tremendous pressure to favor Airbus aircraft.

This is one reason why I don't see LOT buying a 7E7 either. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a trememndous pressure for them to buy Airbus given the millions of Euros in development aid that Poland is receiving from the EU for joining the Union.


25 N328KF : Airbazar: That would be sound logic if the 7E7 cost more than the A350.
26 Post contains images NumberTwelve : N328, of course the 350 will be much more cheaper because A is selling it's planes for nothing, they don't need to earn money with it and get lots of
27 RJ111 : Even if it comes up to 20% cheaper operating cost, much of it will be offset by the high cost of a brand new 7E7 vs. an A330/350 or used 767. Not to m
28 LMP737 : Numbertwelve: If you were customer, LMP, and there is no urgent need to buy new planes at the moment, would you hurry? Wouldn't you want to wait till
29 Spike : And that's why you are not and never will be in aircraft management.
30 NumberTwelve : @LMP - but you only have one launch customer, or do you mean the planes which will be ordered before roll-out get a good deal? And are you talking abo
31 Columba : I still have high hopes for Lufthansa ordering the 7e7-3 as an A306 replacement. They were looking for one for years. The only thing that LH bothers r
32 Boeingfever777 : Well I personally think that BA or AZ will be first major European legacy carrier to order the 7e7. Also what about IB what are there future fleet pla
33 Korg747 : About the Side stick thing. Whether it's there or not the 7E7 is going to still not have any commontality with the rest of LHs fleet. I do agree that
34 DeltaWings : The geographic location of most European countries and the congestion at their airports does not favor an aircraft like the 7E7 for their airlines. Ar
35 Airbazar : Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Range wise, what advantage does the 7E7 bring to LH, LOT, AF, AZ, over a cheaper A330/B767? In other words, would
36 N328KF : Airbazar: He's saying that the 767s have to be replaced anyhow (due to airframe age), and the logical successors are the 7E7 (or A350.) So why not rep
37 Columba : @Airbazar The A330 is no replacement for the A300-600. Lufthansa said that a couple of times that the A330-200 is too big for the routes LH is flying
38 FlyinTLow : I absolutely have to agree that LH is very likely to order the 7E7. They are very Airbus friendly (who blames them, many US airlines are more friendly
39 ViasaMSY : Why would an airline prefer sidestick Vs. yoke or viceversa?. Just simple fleet commonality or are there any other technical issues of interest?. Just
40 Dogfighter2111 : Hi all, I think BA, cos they have an aging fleet of B757's and B767's. I think they would want to replace them within the next 2-3 years. Dog
41 N328KF : ViasaMSY: There is a certain contingent here who have alleged that some air carriers will only order aircraft with sidesticks. It usually goes along w
42 Columba : @FlyinTLow You mean the 777-200LRF not the -300. Lufthansa will not make a decision wether they order the A380F or 777LRF before 2007 (Aero Internatio
43 LMP737 : Numbertwelve: @LMP - but you only have one launch customer, or do you mean the planes which will be ordered before roll-out get a good deal? No, there
44 Post contains images Glideslope : Side sticks are not the flight control of choice for the majority of commercial pilots. 8 out of 10 will admit this over a beer or two. A center stic
45 Post contains links Ardian : Blue Panorama and First Choice Airways became the first European 7E7 Dreamliner customers in July 2004. Source: Boeing website (at "Continuing Progres
46 Post contains images Nucsh : Someone mentioned ruling out KLM and AF... Well, don't they have aging 767s too? If you're saying that the 7E7 could replace other airline's 767s and
47 BA757 : I think BA, cos they have an aging fleet of B757's and B767's. I think they would want to replace them within the next 2-3 years. Not strictly true, s
48 Schreiner : Virgin Atlantic? They are most likely to introduce some new stuff?
49 Post contains images Nudelhirsch : How much of a factor is fleet commonality in reality? The A350 will be a new type rating as well, maybe reduced to some point, but the difference will
50 Flybynight : I'd be pretty sure SK will no be getting the 7e7. Except for some MD80's and 90's, SK's fleet is practically brand new. Besides, wasn't SK upset with
51 DC10Tim : I think BA might be a potential customer in the long run. The 763s are doing just fine at the minute tho and as I understand it (correct me if I'm wro
52 Flybynight : A total darkhorse, but what about Finnair? Maybe replace the MD11's and the 757's. Why not!!
53 Boeingfever777 : "Blue Panorama and First Choice Airways became the first European 7E7 Dreamliner customers in July 2004. Source: Boeing website (at "Continuing Progre
54 Aa777jr : Whichever Euro Legacy orders first, they should get a great deal from Boeing for being a launch customer. LH, BA, or AF, whichever it will be, should
55 FlyinTLow : The thing i don't really understand is why fleet commonality is such an important issue for LH. I do understand it for smaller airlines, which have ma
56 Aa777jr : There won't be an issue when it comes down to LH ordering the 7E7. So if they order some A350, I think they'll have some 7E7 in their fleet also. They
57 Leskova : Nucsh, AF and KLM don't - or soon won't - have ageing B767 fleets: AF has already replaced theirs with A330-200s, KLM will begin receiving the first A
58 AvObserver : "Well for starters the 7e7 wont have 20% lower operating costs it will have 20% lower fuel costs at best which will equate to about 10%-12% operating
59 LifelinerOne : KLM could probably sell off delivery positions if it wanted to and get a good deal on the 7E7. There's only one problem with this... KLM doesn't want
60 FinnWings : A total darkhorse, but what about Finnair? Maybe replace the MD11's and the 757's Could be possible indeed... AY has already announced that MD-11s wil
61 FlyinTLow : @Leskova: I don't think the A321 is a choice for LH. There is quite a difference in between the capacity of the A300 in comparison to the A321 as well
62 LifelinerOne : Oh, in other rumours... Martinair isn't going to order any new planes untill they now how KLM is doing with their A330/B777's... Martinair wants to re
63 A350 : I think in Europe the 7e7 is of particular interest for smaller airlines who don't really need anything bigger than the 7e7-9, and that's the case for
64 Gigneil : I know some have already ordered something else, but Boeing can take back the planes. Heh, in reality, it doesn't work that way. Boeing is not going t
65 Copenhagenboy : About one month ago I read an article in a Danish newspaper about SAS and the 7e7. One from SAS International (overseas) had been in Seattle and was v
66 FLVILLA : BA has no current requirement for 7e7's! The 757's are being phased out and replaced by A321's and BA are upgrading their 763's with new interiors, an
67 Nudelhirsch : Als long as Airbus does not guarantee and proof that they have a BIG advantage over the 7E7 in commonality, such as minor type rating for the 350 in c
68 NumberTwelve : Nudelhirsch, if price is lower for the 350, B has to guarantee the BIG advantage. And of course it's much better to have commonality in fleet - maybe
69 Eilennaei : Finnwings wrote "Could be possible indeed... Finnair has already announced that MD-11s will be replaced by A350 or B7E7" Excuse me, my fellow countrym
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