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Continental Considering 7E7 Order Cancellation  
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16323 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Continental Airlines said yesterday that it may lose hundreds of millions of dollars this year and may have to scrap an order for Boeing Co. 7E7s unless the carrier gets $500 million in wage and benefit cuts by the end of next month.

The airline made the comments in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing yesterday and didn't give a figure for the potential loss. Houston-based Continental said that without the cost reductions, its board might reject delivery of a Boeing airplane order of more than $1.3 billion that was announced Dec. 29.



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/206878_continental07.html?source=rss


Not cool.


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
174 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16179 times:

that was announced Dec. 29

And CO didnt know that it may lose hundreds of millions of dollars this year by Dec.29th or did the situation get that bad within 10 days for them?

Somehow I don't understand this ...

=TW741=



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16149 times:

If CO cancels...they sure as hell won't get as sweet a deal when they order again (which we all know they would)...Boeing would be royally pissed at CO, and Bethune isn't there to calm things down...definatly not good.  Sad

User currently offlineNWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16115 times:

Personally I think it is part of the scare tactic to get paycuts from their employees.


THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 852 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16101 times:

This is exactly what I wrote a week ago! How can CO afford 10 7e7 when they need $ 500 mill. by the end of next month??

Micke//SE  Confused



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16086 times:

maybe it has something to do with DL's hare-brained pricing scheme

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16079 times:

Gordo is not even gone a month and all hell is breaking loose!  Angry

Gordo come back!

This is not good news at all. I hope they can come to some sort of an agreement to free up some capital for those birds!

Bethune 2008


User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16057 times:

nahhhhhhh. Obveasly too good to be true.  Crying


Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineBa319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8524 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16034 times:
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I think it is a mixture of both NWAFA and Supa7E7's replies.


111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineTcfc424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16015 times:

This could be a sign of things getting shaken up at CO as the changing of the guard occurs. Gordo was great and wanted to ensure that CO continues flying Boeing products for many years to come...but does Kellner feel the same way? Perhaps he feels differently than Gordo about the acquisition of new aircraft...remember he was a finance guy...It will be interesting to see how this pans out. It could be a scare tactic for the employees, but that would concern me as to the employee management relationship if MGMT is having to "threaten." Then again, maybe it is due to Delta's low fare-high cost idea to become liquidated faster than US!

Mike in AUS


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16002 times:

nahhhhhhh. Obveasly too good to be true.

What's that supposed to mean? Are you happy CO is losing money?  Confused


User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15961 times:

No of course not! I mean the 7e7 order. It was a miracle that CO ordered the 7e7, but now, they may cancel it, which is no good.


Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12462 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15818 times:
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Personally I think this is a pressure tactic by CO. However, it did seem odd when the 'order' was announced that it still needed full board-level approval. Was this the last act of Bethune before he left?

Maybe now Gordon "I'll only ever buy Boeing" Bethune is gone, CO might actually consider the A350.  Innocent



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline9844 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15770 times:

Absent the $500 million reduction in annual wage and benefit costs, we expect to lose hundreds of millions of dollars in 2005 under current market conditions. In addition, we have approximately $984 million in debt and pension payments due in 2005, approximately $500 million more than in 2004. Without the reduction in wage and benefits costs and a reasonable prospect of future profitability, we believe that our ability to raise additional money through financings would be uncertain. Moreover, unless we are able to timely achieve the reductions, we believe that we will not receive approval from our board of directors to take delivery of the additional aircraft that we recently announced.

recent 8k report........CAL chap 11 in 07


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15720 times:

I'm sure that Continental, being a long-time customer, will be able to negotiate a deal with Boeing so the 7E7 orders can be kept. Boeing has the highest interested in CO surviving, for them the best airline in the US that could die would be US.

User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15608 times:

If I was a Continental employee I wouldn't give sh*t on the order. You can't spend money that you don't have. Continental should have figured the 500 million pay-cut out first, before ordering those new planes.

Big chances are that the employees aren't that willing to take a cut now the bosses bought something that they couldn't afford.

Hopefully they can work something out with Boeing when the problems remain. Or maybe Airbus can make a sweeter deal, not needing the 500 million...  Nuts

Cheers!



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlinePhxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15373 times:

"Hopefully they can work something out with Boeing when the problems remain. Or maybe Airbus can make a sweeter deal, not needing the 500 million... "

I'm sure Airbus could provide a sweeter deal, but it's too bad they can't provide a sweeter plane than the 7E7.



Keepin' it real.
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15249 times:

This was well known when the order came out on Dec. 29th. CO said that they needed to get $500m in custs as well as Board approval to finalize the 7E7 deal. There is nothing new...all this was is that CO reiterated the same thing in the SEC filing and the media is picking it up and rehashing old news(guess they have nothing better to report).

The date everyone needs to watch for is Feb. 28th which the date that they need get board approval and the $500m in cuts.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBENNETT123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15176 times:

Two points catch my attention.

Firstly, the $500M in pay cuts is now, whereas the $1,300M to buy the aircraft is in the future. Are the aircraft being purchased by the airline or the staff.

Secondly, I understood that were buying the B7E7 because it was more efficient. If so, then the aircraft will reduce costs without pay cuts.

I do not see any A350 order at this stage, because it will still cost money.
The last thing that Airbus needs are customers with no money attracting WTO attention.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15132 times:

Exactly what Boeing and CO said from the start

...I'm wondering why no one else seems to have picked up on this.

Of course CO didnt know the specifics of the DL plan at the time, but it's not like there was no forewarning at that point either.




I'm sure Airbus could provide a sweeter deal, but it's too bad they can't provide a sweeter plane than the 7E7

Boeing bailed CO out of a pretty tight spot with its multi-million easy-termed cash infusion... Airbus could do likewise, but PhxInterrupted is right; they'd still need a top-performing plane in the end.

Can they do it? Of course.

Will Airbus do it? Well, considering its history when it comes to delivering promised specs... ya never know.


User currently offlineWbmech From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15115 times:

I don't understand. When CO announced the order employees were outraged that they could place an order for new aircraft with paycuts coming. Continental responded by saying, in effect, one had nothing to do with the other. That the paycuts were not being used to finance new aircraft. Now all of a sudden the new order is contingent on the $500 million in employee givebacks? Something is not right, this is another example why management can't be trusted and why unions at companies fight so hard for their members.

User currently offlineDayflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15109 times:

I think this is a bunch of bull frankly.

It has to do with liquidity now, not 3-4 years from now when they start taking aircraft. Do they pay for them 3 + years out? I think not. They pay for them at delivery.

I think it has more to do with the price they got than scaring the employees.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineM27 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15044 times:

"The last thing that Airbus needs are customers with no money attracting WTO attention."

Oh please!!! give us a break already.


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15030 times:

I think AA tried this tactic in the mid-90s when it was negotiating a new contract with the pilots. If a remember my chronology correctly, AA first made a statement in the early part of 1996 that it had no confirmed orders for the first time in a number of years, and that unless there was substantial progress on the contract, there would be no future orders.

Then, after some progress, AA and Boeing signed the long-term agreement in the fall of 1996. That was conditioned on AA getting an agreement with its pilots within a few months.

Then, the pilots walked out for 20 minutes in February, 1997 (President Clinton sent them back to work). So, the Boeing deal was technically dead.

I think the Boeing deal was reannounced several weeks after the pilots approved their new contract in May of 1997. The net affect was that it pushed deliveries of 737s, 757s, and 777s by a few months. Deliveries started in Janurary of 1999, but under the 1996 announcement, they were supposed to start in the fall of 1998.

So, it seems to me that CO is playing hardball. I can't believe that CO would sign any kind of agreement with Boeing, then spring this statement about the need for wage cuts both on the employees and Boeing.


User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14932 times:

They didn't spring this statement all of a sudden. REad the press release announcing the order and you will see that they needed the cuts and the Board approval in order to finalize the deal.

http://www.continental.com/vendors/default.asp?SID=3EDCBAC9F141494EA56EAE6A4CFE9498&s=&i=PRNews

"The agreement with Boeing for the 10 7E7 aircraft, the eight 757-300 aircraft, and the acceleration of the six 737-800 aircraft are subject to several conditions, including the approval of Continental's board of directors on or before Feb. 28, 2005, and in the case of the 7E7 agreement, the negotiation of an engine supply arrangement for the 7E7 aircraft acceptable to Continental. The company expects to finalize its $500 million in annual wage and benefit cost reductions by Feb. 28, 2005, and believes it will receive approval from its board for the additional aircraft, provided that the company's business case for the aircraft includes a cost structure that will allow the aircraft to generate a positive return to Continental."

--from CO press release 12/29/2004



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
25 PlaneSmart : As Dayflyer states, the $500m concessions are about immediate liquidity. There will be a point with the 7e7 order, where a meaningful, non-refundable
26 ConcordeBoy : "The last thing that Airbus needs are customers with no money attracting WTO attention." Oh please!!! give us a break already. ...actually, the statem
27 BENNETT123 : Thanks Concordeboy. If Airbus gives a Non Economic price to Continental, how long will it take Boeing to shout foul.
28 ConcordeBoy : About three tenths of a nanosecond... which is my point exactly.
29 M27 : The last thing that Airbus needs are customers with no money attracting WTO attention." Oh please!!! give us a break already. ...actually, the stateme
30 ConcordeBoy : I would assume that you are referring to the fact that Airbus already has several airline customers that have questionable finances and do not need an
31 Wbmech : Lenders will want to see CO with a lower sustainable cost structure before approving new funding. Whether this comes from pilot pay cuts, pay cuts in
32 Stlgph : Why does CO need to order these planes? I think they should get more use out of the ones they have now. I went into Cleveland early yesterday afternoo
33 Kalakaua : CO are scaring their employees in the name of cost cutting, and at the same time they're using scare tactics so Boeing could give them a better deal o
34 Keesje : I found it an odd deal from the start, perhaps more a Gordo then Continental deal. Feet back on the ground now. Gordo also ordered the 737-900, 767-40
35 RICARDOAB : Perhaps CO wanted to put on a brave face by pretending that they were financially sound enough to commit to a new airliner project
36 Nyc777 : Why don't you naysayers look at the press release..again! They made all of this abdunately clear on December 29th. There are no surprises here.
37 Wbmech : They made all of this abdunately clear on December 29th. There are surprises here. In usual CO management fashion they did not make this abundantly c
38 Angelairways : Absolutely 100% scare tactics. Basically they're saying "look we'll buy American and support our industry (and the Japanese industry and the Italian I
39 Ewr757 : >>and I also know what the employee q & a says. They both contradict each other.
40 Lockheed1011 : I could not agree with you more! That is the way the operate... "Absolutely 100% scare tactics." Basically they're saying "look we'll buy American and
41 ConcordeBoy : Gordo also ordered the 737-900, 767-400 and 767-200ER during the last few years. Most carriers didn´t do so. Each one of those models also made perfe
42 ETStar : A couple of things... why is this that, while all other majors were publicly stating that they would be cutting back, CO was not doing the same? Yes,
43 ScottB : You have to read the company's statements very closely to "get" why paycuts will not be paying for the new aircraft. Continental needs about $500 mill
44 Atmx2000 : As I said before on another thread, CO is the healthiest legacy in terms of their balance sheet, but they are making losses. If they can trim their co
45 N328KF : I think this topic title is bunk. Saying that Continental is "considering" order cancellation is an inaccurate assessment of the root of the scenario.
46 AASTEW : I thought the relationship between management and labor was sweet over there at CO. If so, how can CO be using scare tactics! Someone please explain!
47 NWAFA : AASTEW, That was in the Gordon days..it is amazing he is gone 7 days and look whats going on. Scarry!
48 Falcon84 : Personally I think it is part of the scare tactic to get paycuts from their employees. Of course you do, seeing your pro-union stance on here. I think
49 STT757 : Folks the aircraft order is tied to the wage concessions, unlike other carriers CO is offering something in return for the wage concessions. They are
50 N328KF : That really does make it sound like a good deal. "Take a pay cut and we can put more of you to work flying more metal."
51 Flybyguy : Could a canceled order by CO, one of Boeing's best customers cost Boeing more 787 orders?
52 AvObserver : "Could a canceled order by CO, one of Boeing's best customers cost Boeing more 787 orders?" I'd think only among potential orders by another U.S. majo
53 Flying-Tiger : Quote: "The 757s have become available from Boeing because of the current bankruptcy of ATA, a lowcost competitor. The 737s have become available beca
54 Newkai : Gordo was a pure genius! I wrote half my high school and college term papers about his achievements and 75% of my stock ownership is in CO, so these g
55 Post contains images Tripple7 : Newkai I advise you to take a course in Financial Risk management and pay special attention to the part where they talk about spreading risks
56 Ewr757 : >>And when the bankruptcy filing comes knocking at our door, and you're forced to take even bigger concessions, you'll be crying the loudest
57 NumberTwelve : I guess it's tactics - I don't sign a contract and announce cancellation a few days later! Only would do that if something really unexpected happens.
58 Falcon84 : If you want your cuts to fund managements plans for their golden parachutes, by all means, go right ahead. ROTFL. Your head is so far up the union tha
59 Ewr757 : Falcon: You're right. Management bleeding the company dry has no effect on the balance sheet. Like I said, enjoy watching your pay fund their future.
60 Post contains links NumberTwelve : So when I read parts from another topic http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1882412/ some people may be gleefull: Airtran7
61 Fanoftristars : Posted by Flying Tiger "Yeah... sure, a low-cost carrier taking B757-300s... sure, dream on." ATA already had 753s. So no need for dreaming. These wer
62 Falcon84 : You're right. Management bleeding the company dry..... Yaaawn....more typical union BS. You mean, the SAME management that was bringing in record prof
63 Ewr757 : >>Yaaawn....more typical union BS.You mean, the SAME management that was bringing in record profits in the 90's? That management? The one who got us a
64 Post contains links STT757 : From CO's own press release on the announcement of the 7E7 order, note the part which mentions the 7E7 order is tied to cost structure (ie wage conces
65 Ewr757 : Amazing they can forecast paycuts for the cost structure that will be needed 4 years from now, but they can't forecast fuel costs to hedge for the nex
66 Falcon84 : Amazing they can forecast paycuts for the cost structure that will be needed 4 years from now, but they can't forecast fuel costs to hedge for the nex
67 Ewr757 : >>And yes, Ewr757, I did hear that from someone in management, so make sure to tell everyone here that it's a bunch of PR and a lie, OK?
68 WesternA318 : OK, time to take my side with Falcon here, "read the JP Morgan airline report written in November of this year. Look at the real reasons CAL is losing
69 Ewr757 : >>Since when did JPMorgan know jack about running an airline?
70 Artsyman : Prostituting yourself does nothing for your wallet or your self esteem. *** Pilot pay is hardly prostituting ones self. Whether you fight the pay cuts
71 WesternA318 : "LOL, that gung ho attitude quickly vanishes. Prostituting yourself does nothing for your wallet or your self esteem." Well, as long as we have the al
72 Ewr757 : >>Pilot pay is hardly prostitution ones self.Whether you fight the pay cuts or not, you cannot suggest that your hardline stance could ever be seen a
73 Ewr757 : >>Well, as long as we have the almighty pilots to put us in our place, who do us ground-bound peons think we are? As for working for CO for free hurti
74 WesternA318 : "Perhaps the courts will reduce the outreagous management schemes" And what schemes would those be? Sacrificing unionized emplyes pay for the sake of
75 Artsyman : Let them file bankruptcy then. Perhaps the courts will reduce the outreagous management schemes that have taken place. Fine with me. *** This just sho
76 Ewr757 : >>need to be choked again by more than a few bankruptcy judges or airline management teams.
77 WesternA318 : "As far as what team you play for, I like the team of 42,000, not the team of a few thousand that feels it is more important than everyone else." I to
78 Artsyman : Didn't Kellner say he was forgoing his bonus this year? **** Kelner, Misner along with virtually every other VP (if not every other VP) took roughly a
79 WesternA318 : "after he spent the morning eradicating the pilots pensions and giving them a 25% paycut instead of the measly 5-7% they are fighting." 25% is all? Wo
80 Post contains images Falcon84 : The same management that is trying to sell your pay cuts? No, the same management that had us flying through the 90's when times were good; the same o
81 WesternA318 : "The Amazing Turnaround of CO, and the 5,000 Pilots Who Made It Happen" You know, I saw that same pamphlet on eBay in a lot of CO stuff, lol, I bought
82 WesternA318 : "As far as the hedging, my point was, and it was lost on you, was that prior to this, CAL was more interested in paying executive compensation far in
83 Artsyman : EWR757. Your don't seem to mind the union bosses and the union in general making huge profits, so why do you mind everyone else ? Look at how much goe
84 Falcon84 : Btw, Ewr757, you were talking about CASM's. When it comes to payroll, the percentage that goes to employee compensation is almost twice as high at CO
85 Ewr757 : >>Btw, Ewr757, you were talking about CASM's. When it comes to payroll, the percentage that goes to employee compensation is almost twice as high at C
86 Ewr757 : >>EWR757. Your don't seem to mind the union bosses and the union in general making huge profits, so why do you mind everyone else ?
87 Falcon84 : Absolute bullshit. CO's labor CASM is almost idenical to WN's Well, your union is misleading you, then. Because that happens to be true. So keep on yo
88 Ewr757 : >>No, the same management that had us flying through the 90's when times were good; the same one that made it so WE, the employees, could take the com
89 Ewr757 : >>Well, your union is misleading you, then.
90 Ewr757 : >>How far back are we talking? 1983? >When you wretched pilots were trying to bomb other pilots houses for noot following union rules and striking whe
91 WesternA318 : "Besides, this is coming from some dolt who wants to work for free? So you can be around airplanes or something? LMAO." You know what, I'm not dying t
92 Ewr757 : >>You know what, I'm not dying to work for free, I do get paid at CO, but if it did come down to it, I would give back my entire cut, because CO deser
93 Wbmech : Seems to me the many employees I come into contact with are burnng mad about this whole issue. The company wants all the employee groups isolated and
94 WesternA318 : Right now, Im just a ticket agent peon that you look down on. In February, switching to inflight for an F/A slot. That is where being around planes fi
95 Falcon84 : Maybe EWR is just a bit brighter than the rest of the system and doesn't fall for company BS. I'd love to get a hold of a picture of an ostrich with i
96 WesternA318 : "Maybe EWR is just a bit brighter than the rest of the system and doesn't fall for company BS. " Thank god its in Jersey....
97 Post contains images DfwRevolution : I'd love to get a hold of a picture of an ostrich with it's head buried in the sand. Will this do ? >>Translation: "If they're willing to give back th
98 Wbmech : Why should I go? I'm not unhappy at CO. I just don't like what the company is trying to do. Although I do sometimes question why I stay. I could easil
99 Falcon84 : Why should I go? I'm not unhappy at CO. Sure you are. You don't like management, for all the reasons that people who don't have a clue usually hate ma
100 WesternA318 : "However I like my job and intend to keep it." Then why are you bitching and complaining about the cuts? If you like your job so much, quit complaini
101 Wbmech : So I have you really pissed. I think I'll stay til the end now, just to tick people like you off. Back to the thread subject. I would love to see us g
102 Falcon84 : So I have you really pissed. No, you have my pity, for being such a bitter, short-sighted person. You're blind to the facts; deaf to reason, and playi
103 Sidishus : Work Hard...Fly Right Fly High...Fall Far looks like CO is turning into a bucket full of crabs...the unfortunate souls are beginning to tear each oth
104 Post contains images QFA001 : Bring back Frank... I would love to see us get the 7E7, but not out of my paycheck. If it is out of my paycheck I want my name on the nose seeing that
105 Ewr757 : Falcon: I was going to reply to your wind bag of a last post, yet I decided why bother? I offer a different point a view, backed up by data. That data
106 WesternA318 : "The mantra of "leave if you don't like it" is an insult to the many people who have built this company. Not overpaid management who flee with their g
107 Falcon84 : If you run your mouth on the airplane to other crews, like you do on this forum you'll probably regret it. Ah, the hypocrisy comes out from Ewr757. He
108 Ewr757 : >>Ah, the hypocrisy comes out from Ewr757. He poo-pooed me when I told him to expect a nice center seat if the union fucks around, but now, Westjet, y
109 Ewr757 : >>Every few years? Gordon Bethune was at Continental since 93-94! Thats more than just a few years, or would you like the revolving door to 1600 Smith
110 Post contains images QFA001 : Better do some research on your airline history. In fact Frank did purchase many new airplanes during his tenure. Frank did underwrite them with scab
111 Ewr757 : >>Wow, you're a bit dense, aren't you? Er, sufficeth to say, if Frank were back, you wouldn't have shareholders or investors. Without them, you don't
112 SXMbyKLM747 : " I have been at this company probably since you have been in diapers" EWR757: probably yóu got so old that u need diapers again. I don;t believe any
113 Post contains images QFA001 : You made a statement about no aircraft under Frank. I said there were aircraft delivered under his regime. Back up your facts. I didn't spruik any fac
114 Post contains links and images QFA001 : OK, then what do you call the above statement then? OK, Gomer, since 'comment' wasn't a good enough explanation for you -- consider it a quirky illust
115 Ewr757 : >>OK, Gomer, since 'comment' wasn't a good enough explanation for you
116 Post contains images WesternA318 : >>I never said I was going to shoot of at the mouth while inflight,
117 Post contains images Falcon84 : Your center seat threat was such a joke for several reasons. A joke? Come try it, my friend, if the Union tries to play hardball and take the company'
118 Ewr757 : >>I never said I was going to shoot of at the mouth while inflight, >I know who you are,so I can just avoid your flights altogether, be wise with you
119 Post contains images Falcon84 : Ewr757, do you like put the aircraft on Autopilot, and have a laptop with you? You're on here more than I am.
120 Ewr757 : >>A joke? Come try it, my friend, if the Union tries to play hardball and take the company's finances south. I saw it happen when the mechanics acted
121 WesternA318 : Falcon, He got the laptop from jetBlue when he tried going over there spouting union mantra, lol. just kidding. Well, he does suport the LCC's more th
122 Ewr757 : >>No, but I do have the authority to reprimand you or suspend your flying for some of your posts here, if I decide to forward them onto the chief pilo
123 RogueTrader : I've done some research and would like to ask if we can re-direct this conversation a bit towards the facts ? Its surprising, but true - CO and WN hav
124 Ewr757 : >>EWR757: Can you explain why competition, fuel costs, etc... aren't your problem, or a labor problem? If you're going to act like an employee group h
125 RogueTrader : EWR757, I couldn't find the JP Morgan report you are talking about. If you can find it, maybe you should post a link to it. Your points in the last po
126 Falcon84 : Did you not mention this originally as deadheading which is positive space? No, I did not, which shows that fact elude you quite easily. Obviously res
127 Ewr757 : EWR757, >>I couldn't find the JP Morgan report you are talking about. If you can find it, maybe you should post a link to it.Your points in the last p
128 Falcon84 : I have the report on a file, perhaps I can e-mail it to you? I can’t get it to link. It was written by Jaime Baker 11/11/04. Send one to me, too. I'
129 Ewr757 : Remember this message: >>Btw, Ewr757, you were talking about CASM's. When it comes to payroll, the percentage that goes to employee compensation is a
130 Ewr757 : Give me both your e-mail addresses and I will send it in the morning. >>WN is NOT a fair comparison. WN is a domestic-only carrier, with only one type
131 Post contains images Falcon84 : You can send it to me via Anet. I have a contact in there, Ewr757. Yet, you feel it is ok that our management wants to compensate us far below WN pay?
132 Ewr757 : >>The problems of high fuel, low prices on tickets, high taxes, and lots of obligations aren't "short-term". They're yearly, long-term changes in thi
133 Ewr757 : You can send it to me via Anet. I have a contact in there, Ewr757. I can't send a file. Make up a hotmail or yahoo account in the morning and I'll fir
134 Post contains links and images RogueTrader : Ewr757, I don't really consider this a debate, but thanks for calling the conversation refreshing. I do think we've managed to uncover some new real i
135 WesternA318 : Roguetrader, Why arent the 737NG series being added into this chart? Are they that completely different in CASM?
136 Post contains images RogueTrader : Western, The point of the charts was just to show that Southwest's CASM is so much cheaper for the exact same aircraft - even though we've already sho
137 BigB : Guys, you can't really compare WN CASM to CO CASM because both companies have very different cost structure.
138 Artsyman : Like what was said above about comparing CEO pay at WN versus CO, comparing their non labour CASM etc and why so many things are different, there are
139 RogueTrader : Artsyman, Comparing WN and CO makes a lot of sense. All your reasons why CO has higher costs directly brings into question the value of management. If
140 Artsyman : Rogetrader, As most of your points focus on one thing, I will just give a summary answer. The International routings are where companies like Continen
141 Ewr757 : Rouge: How do you clip these graphs to the board? I have tried to do that but they won't link. I have more interesting ones which should put a nail in
142 WesternA318 : Roguetrader, thanks for clearing that up
143 Falcon84 : The LCC’s do not fly the missions that we do. The LCC’s do not have 20 and 30 year employees. EXACTLY! They're not the same kind of airline that w
144 Ewr757 : Falcon, you’re hopeless...however several points: >>They're not the same kind of airline that we are! They don't have far-flung fleets all over the
145 Ewr757 : Falcon Stated: >>Since it was presented in a closed-door meeting with employees,i t would be inappropriate for me-and probably would get me in troubl
146 Ewr757 : More comparisons with industry pay and facts and comparisons Falcon: Executive Officers Salary and Stock Options at Continental Airlines, Inc. Name T
147 WesternA318 : Falcon, did you attend the meetings in CLE or down in IAH? (I didn't even think about meetings in CLE).
148 RogueTrader : EWR757*, The management pay at CO and NW and WN seem in the same ballpark. Total exec compensation at NW was $9.2m and at CO it was $9.3M. As you post
149 Falcon84 : Yes, but management, even in your own example, wants to compare our labor costs with them. But they weren't only comparing CO and WN, were they? They
150 WesternA318 : Excellent, I'll have to stop by. Please contact me through the email part in my profile and let me know more specifics, I'm on holiday until Friday, I
151 Planemaker : From a practical perspective, arguing about management pay cuts is useless. From an emotional perspective, yes.. OK, I understand the quid pro quo but
152 Ewr757 : Rouge: My Hotmail refuses to send the file saying there is a virus alert due to the extension. Ideas? The report is dated 11/11/04 written by Jamie Ba
153 Post contains images Falcon84 : In your message number 84 you state: >>Btw, Ewr757, you were talking about CASM's. When it comes to payroll, the percentage that goes to employee comp
154 Ewr757 : 1. >>And I also had mentioned that AA, NW and DL were showing higher than CO, and the rest on the list lower, if you care to look back a bit. YOU were
155 RogueTrader : It seems as if everyone has expressed their view here in the Falcon/EWR757 debate, which is really a good picture of the management / pilots debate. 3
156 Ewr757 : >>but I hope I haven't interjected myself here in an unwanted way.Would the pilots be willing to take work rule changes that would result in the same
157 WesternA318 : "Perhaps in your previous 1925 posts over the last four months you were able to routinely bullshit people on this board but you can not with me." But
158 Spike : Confirmed: http://www.bbc.aviationtoay/com/contintal.exp.stuffed 12:42GMT: London- Continental Airlines have admitted that they had no intention of pu
159 Ewr757 : In the following message you are only a “Ticket agent” Msg # 94 >>Right now, Im just a ticket agent peon I also believe there needs to be a reduct
160 Toxtethogrady : I realize I'm picking up this thread late, but it needs to be done... "Well, your union is misleading you, then. Because that happens to be true." The
161 Toxtethogrady : "Every few years? Gordon Bethune was at Continental since 93-94! Thats more than just a few years, or would you like the revolving door to 1600 Smith
162 Toxtethogrady : Rogue, who is the source for the data presented in your graphics? I'm not sure how they compare with the Aviation Daily's analysis. But they are an in
163 Toxtethogrady : "WN is NOT a fair comparison. WN is a domestic-only carrier, with only one type of aircraft, flying to, comparitively, a smaller number of destination
164 PlaneSmart : Good points Tox. Lease charges include an interest component - base rate plus a margin reflecting risk (customer=airline and aircraft). Just as for bo
165 Toxtethogrady : "Total exec compensation at NW was $9.2m and at CO it was $9.3M." That will change at Northwest, now that Richard "I'd rather be denying claims at an
166 Ewr757 : Toxteth: Thank you for your input into the thread. Your analysis, and data is accurate, verifiable and presented in a clear and concise manner. I hav
167 Ewr757 : >>Anderson is almost singlehandedly responsible for starving the carriers over the past year and a half with his blind insistence to not raise airfare
168 WesternA318 : ewr757, You are correct in that the ATSB needs to quit giving life support to these losing airlines like UA and US. Is the ATSB going to extend the lo
169 Toxtethogrady : "You are correct in that the ATSB needs to quit giving life support to these losing airlines like UA and US. Is the ATSB going to extend the loan agai
170 Skymileman : It will be a sad day if CO ever operates an Airbus product. (I know they operated the A300, but I'm talking about now). CO and DL are the only two str
171 WesternA318 : Frontier Airlines was also given a loan under the ATSB. They have since paid it off in full...
172 Ewr757 : Falcon: No response yet to this? This should be a very simple task for you to recall the meeting. >>Date, location, time, people present and now I
173 Ewr757 : >>In theory, ATSB could decide not to extend the guarantee, at which point it would be up to the lender to decide if they want to call any outstanding
174 Post contains links Sidishus : Two interesting tidbits pertinent to this debate from Boyd's Pop Quiz on his website. http://www.aviationplanning.com/index.html If you don't make it
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