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The Race Is On: AA And CO Apply For LAX-MEX  
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32799 posts, RR: 71
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

American Airlines and Continental Airlines both applied with DOT to serve the Los Angeles-Mexico City market, since Delta is dropping it.

American Airlines application:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=310592&docketid=20069

Continetnal Airlines application:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=310592&docketid=20069

Both airlines present strong cases. AA has a large focus city operation at LAX and offers a plethora of connecting oppurtunities. Continental will rely mainly on O&D traffic (which is not a problem in this market), but has a strong footing and commitment in the Mexico market.


a.
87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10112 times:

...which sorta makes you wonder WhyTF DL is dropping it?  Sad

User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3008 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10098 times:

Both of the listed applications are for American Airlines.

User currently offlineAa767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2363 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10030 times:

Most likely AA will put a S80 on this if they get it. But....It could warrant a 757. Hope AA gets it.  Smile


"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineVenezuela747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1428 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9823 times:

WOW, I thought AA had service to MEX from LAX, but they just codeshare with MX. :0


ROLL TIDE!!!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25436 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Here is Continental's application.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfmdocumentid=310594&docketid=20071




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJoseMEX From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 1539 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9741 times:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfmdocumentid=310594&docketid=20071

[Edited 2005-01-08 02:40:50]

User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9733 times:

I can't help but think that American will get it. American is asking to offer 2 daily 757's on the route, whereas Continental is asking for a single 737 flight on the route. I think it would take a massive case of idiocy on the DOT's part to give this to Continental instead of American.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7584 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9640 times:

I know this thread is about the applications of AA and CO but I can't help asking why DL is leaving. This is clearly a major route for any U.S. carrier and it just seems like too stupid that I really wonder what the reason is. I look forward to reading everybody's comments and opinions on this issue.

I concur with SHUPirate1 that AA should take it based on the capacity they are offering. On a personal level, though, I would prefer to see CO get the authority because it would nicely replace DL as the U.S. SkyTeam carrier in charge of this route.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25292 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9612 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Knock me doiwn with a feather!

I'm surprised Delta is giving it up. I thought they held it as a permanent authority, inherited from Western Airlines?

If so, it would be a valuable thing to give away, but, of course, I could be very wrong.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNikonDFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9563 times:

Didn't AS want LAX-MEX as well?

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9537 times:

When Western used to fly LAX-MEX, there used to be DC-10's on the route...and I believe Mexicana also flew DC-10-15's on this route as well. Now it's nothing but 757's and smaller - no widebodies at all. Now the last vestige of that route (WA's successor DA) is pulling out. Very sad.

C'est la vie - best of luck to the successor!!




Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9526 times:

I can't help but think that American will get it. American is asking to offer 2 daily 757's on the route, whereas Continental is asking for a single 737 flight on the route. I think it would take a massive case of idiocy on the DOT's part to give this to Continental instead of American.

Maybe the idiocy is American offering too much capacity, whereas CO could be operating just the right amount of seats to make money on the route?

Capacity (or overcapcity) doesn't mean they'll be successful, and it doesn't mean they'll make money on the route, either.


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7584 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

PanAm747, sometimes MX sends its 763ER to LAX. Since the plane's sole purpose is to fly to EZE and this only happens 5x a week as per the Mexico-Argentina bilateral, MX is able to use it for some flights to LAX too to keep it busy.

Falcon84, I agree that in a great number of cases offering capacity that is not really required would result in losses rather than in profits, but I believe that MEX-LAX is a huge, huge market and it can support AA's proposed two 752 flights (which would be like adding one more 752 flight, since DL currently operates 1 daily 752).



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

Eddie, maybe you're right, and I wasn't implying to the contrary. Maybe I should have stated that. But my point was bigger (plane-wise and capacity-wise), isn't always better.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7584 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9424 times:

We are in complete agreement Falcon.

And speaking of making money (sorry for being so insistent), I can't understand why DL is abandoning a route that is supposed to be lucrative. Notwithstanding the high percentage of ethnic and leisure travelers, MEX-LAX is a good route in terms of high-yield passengers (paying business class pax and full-fare Y class pax). Furthermore, NW flies to NRT from LAX and KE flies to ICN from LAX, so LAX is a major connecting hub for Mexicans going to Asia and for Asians going to Mexico, so I am sure that DL could have taken advantage of that situation.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9415 times:

Falcon-Obviously, it doesn't always make sense to fly more rather than less, however, we are talking about a unique situation here, namely one where an airline is trying to sway a third-party (the DOT) to let them fly a route without frequency limitations. For one, American obviously has bigger plans for the route than Continental does. American is bringing in two daily 757's configured at 22F 166Y (according to the DOT docket), which means 376 daily round-trip seats. Even if Continental brings in a daily 739, configured at 16F 149Y, that's just 165 round-trip seats every day. Additionally, for business traffic (and I can't help but think that this is a significant business route, between the US' second-largest metro area and the largest city in the Western Hemisphere), there's some frequency on the route with American's proposal (twice a day, versus once a day with Continental's). If American had a somewhat smaller plane (this is moot, because they don't, I know), I'm sure they would rather go with 3 daily frequencies, however, the 738's are too large for three daily frequencies, and the MD-80's, while they have the right capacity for the job, would likely be a chronic westbound weight restriction issue due to the altitude at MEX (somebody in operations could be a GREAT help with that, thanks).


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineAM773 From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9406 times:

According to MX's itinerary, they only send the 763 for flight MX900, once a week on Sundays.



User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9383 times:

Isn't it wierd that you have to apply for a route where only two carriers from each country are allowed on one route and you even have to fix your number of frequencies between two countries which both contain to tha NAFTA?

It is time to open competition between Mexico and the USA in the same way it is open between canada and the USA.


User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1844 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9362 times:

This isn't a surprise. I always love flying down to SJD on AA from LAX. You get some real interesting people on those flights  Big grin


Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7584 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Hi JoFMO. While your statement is completely true and fair from an open-markets perspective, I think that the Mexican government was very smart at negotiating the bilateral with the U.S. While AM and MX are superior in terms of quality and service to most U.S. carriers, having an unrestricted market like the one you propose would definitely reduce the market share of Mexican carriers significantly, since you would have many more U.S. airlines flying from the major U.S. airports to MEX, CUN, etc than Mexican carriers flying those same routes. In addition, U.S. carriers would be in a better position to offer lower fares than MX and AM in such a scenario forcing the Mexican competition to back off of some routes (or altogether destroying it) because they would not mind losing money in their flights to Mexican cities as long as they can cross-subsidize those losses with the profits they obtain from certain domestic or other international routes.

Bottomline, I hope I don't sound nationalistic, populist and protectionist (actually I am a very firm believer in open markets most of the times, and very proud of it... my legacy from my graduate studies at the University of Chicago), but I hope this "only 2 carriers from each country in each city pair" rule remains in effect for the welfare of the two flag carriers of my country. Just my 2 cents.

Contrary points of view and constructive criticism are more than welcome.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineGhost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5222 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9257 times:

No no no!! So sad not seeing AS applying! What if AS decide to apply today or tomorrow two days before AA and CO did? Would they take them into consideration?

MD80s and B738s/B739s will have a lot of restrictions in the outbound flight to LAX. Therefore I see CO only flying B737-700 or B757-200 and in case AA wins the battle they will only stick with B757 and probably B762/B763 or A300 in the future.

Ricardo APM




Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9235 times:

Ghost77-Continental specifically stated on their application that they would be running 737's on the LAX-MEX route. However, they did not mention which 737 variant they would be running.

BTW, would the 738 and 739 struggle that much with the MEX-LAX flight? I know MEX is very high up, but I assume they'd have long-enough runways for that flight to not have to take a payload hit. Obviously, American would REALLY struggle on that westbound route payloadwise if they ran the MD-80 on it, which presumably is why they are putting the 757 on the route.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineKim777fan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 510 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9222 times:

Isn't there already a Sky Team partner on the route with AM??

User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9206 times:

If one of these airlines gets the China route, maybe the loser will get MEX as a consolation prize.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
25 Post contains links Aaway : Heres the original post regarding DL's withdrawal: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1886135/ Why is DL pulling out? I t
26 MAH4546 : with B757 and probably B762/B763 or A300 in the future. They wouldn't waste a valuable 763 that could be flying a long haul route on LAX-MEX. Nor woul
27 ContinentalEWR : American's A300 fleet, which numbers 34 aircraft are not all based at MIA. Many are based at JFK and are the backbone of AA's service from NYC to the
28 STT757 : "BTW, would the 738 and 739 struggle that much with the MEX-LAX flight? I know MEX is very high up, but I assume they'd have long-enough runways for t
29 MAH4546 : Isn't it wierd that you have to apply for a route where only two carriers from each country are allowed on one route and you even have to fix your num
30 STT757 : AA is not going to route an A300 through MEX to LAX for just one or two frequencies, much more cost effective to get better utilization of existing LA
31 QuestAir : United flies that route with an A320, I believe.
32 Ghost77 : Ghost77-Continental specifically stated on their application that they would be running 737's on the LAX-MEX route. However, they did not mention whic
33 Stlgph : question 1-- Does the Mexican government get its own say in what carrier gets the route? I would think the Mexican government would prefer Continental
34 Aa767400 : Are A300 bases are BOS,JFK, and MIA. These are all Pilot bases for it as well. MX does JFK-MEX, which in turn helps AA as a codeshare.
35 BoeingPride800 : I hope AA gets the route. If any of you are interested in my opinion.
36 MAH4546 : Does the Mexican government get its own say in what carrier gets the route? Of course, though I have a feeling they usually just go with what the DOT
37 CALMSP : I imagine the route will be flown by a 800......larger cargo capacity. This would be great if we can get this....I would love to move to LA....and mor
38 A999 : What about AA flying MD83`s ?
39 Aaway : "Continental, including codeshares, offers logical connections only to Gunninson (Colo.), Honolulu, and Tokyo." Actually, CO's potential network is mu
40 SHUPirate1 : A999-AA's docket specifically states they will be flying 2 757's a day on the route. The MD-83, in all likelyhood, would be a near-daily weight proble
41 MAH4546 : Continental, including codeshares, offers logical connections only to Gunninson (Colo.), Honolulu, and Tokyo." Actually, CO's potential network is muc
42 AAR90 : Are A300 bases are BOS,JFK, and MIA AA airplanes are not "based" anywhere... AA flight/cabin crews are. What about AA flying MD83`s Performance restri
43 Klwright69 : If MAH4546 is correct (and I have no reason to doubt him) that once the carrier has the route between the U.S. and Mexico, they can run as many or few
44 Aaway : MAH, Didn't mean that CO had the larger network to/from LAX. Mean't that CO's network (online, Skyteam, codeshares) was larger than you had listed. So
45 Tan flyr : Just for the record, CO does very little if any marekting its code share services with Eagle from interior or smaller cites in California. I cannot re
46 STT757 : This route is O&D driven, connections are minor. AA and CO have DFW and IAH for connections to Mexico.
47 SFOMEX : This route is O&D driven, connections are minor. AA and CO have DFW and IAH for connections to Mexico STT757 is right. The bulk on this route are the
48 Aaway : "Just for the record, CO does very little if any marekting its code share services with Eagle from interior or smaller cites in California." If you re
49 N1120a : >MD80s and B738s/B739s will have a lot of restrictions in the outbound flight to LAX717, 738, 739, 763/764
50 EddieDude : Alireza, the 763ER is almost never used by AM to Europe because it has range issues. If you look closely, you will see that most of the times AM sends
51 FATFlyer : "Just for the record, CO does very little if any marekting its code share services with Eagle from interior or smaller cites in California." If you re
52 Aaway : If you reside in California, you haven't seen ANY marketing for this service beacuse CO is not permitted to sell on a p2p basis within California. It'
53 Post contains images FATFlyer : These options are shown and bookable via the CRS'. But that assumes that travel still follows the model of contacting a TA to book a flight. With more
54 Mas777 : Shame - this is only happening now since Malaysia Airlines had to pull the plug on its KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX due to traffic rights restrictions between LAX
55 Post contains images Aaway : These options are shown and bookable via the CRS'. "But that assumes that travel still follows the model of contacting a TA to book a flight. With mor
56 Rojo : Shame - this is only happening now since Malaysia Airlines had to pull the plug on its KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX due to traffic rights restrictions between LAX
57 Post contains images Aa767400 : Ok, AAR90. A300s are not based in BOS,JFK, and MIA.......The Cockpit and Flight Attendants are. So yeah, all in all the A300s are pretty not based in
58 Ghost77 : No. The 738/739 would have absolutely no issue going full from MEX to LAX. The route is 1349 nm. 738s fly unrestricted westbound BOS-LAX all the time,
59 AAplatnumflier : January 24th I believe the document said Aa767400. I can't wait to fly this route as AA does a good job in servicing Mexico from American destinations
60 JoseMEX : >B738/739 do have problems @ MEX! Of course AA or CO could send theirs with no problems but I don't know if they will be able to fly them out of MEX.
61 Ghost77 : But then how is CO operating their early afternoon MEX-EWR flight (a longer distance than MEX-LAX) with a 738? Are they weight restricted? AFAIK, yes.
62 FATFlyer : Well, same availability shown via CRS is shown via an airline's website. For example, look at CO's website for an availability between IAH-FAT Awarene
63 Aaway : FATFlyer, If you have the time, shoot me an email via my profile as I don't want to hijack this thread. I'd like to continue this debate.
64 Post contains links LatinAviation : Looks like Alaksa filed for service, as well, daily with a 737. Here's their application in PDF: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p80/310628.pdf
65 Kkfla737 : How times have changed! AA is the airline with the stronger case based on having a strong operation at LAX. At one time AA was a bit played on the wes
66 CALMSP : I can assure you that when we unload these 800s from MEX in IAH there is no wya they can be weight restricted. These puppies are coming in HEAVY and v
67 Post contains links PlaneGuy27 : Alaska has also applied for the route. 1 daily on M80 http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.cfm?documentid=310628&docketid=20073
68 RayChuang : I think the LAX to MEX route should be restricted to planes that can handle hot and high conditions--that would be 757-200's and 767-200/300 models. I
69 MAH4546 : I have to wonder can the A300B4-600R's AA flies can fly the LAX-MEX round trip on full loads in both directions. Yes, it can. Though AA will not be us
70 Laca773 : I am shocked and sadened DL will be dropping LAX-MEX-LAX. I always thought this route did well but then again DL has been doing many things lately tha
71 EA CO AS : Alaska has also applied for the route. 1 daily on M80 Re-read it. It clearly states TWICE daily using "Next Generation 737 aircraft," meaning 73Gs are
72 CO2BGR : looking in the reservations computer CO does NOT hold any passenger seats out of MEX to EWR, even in August at 1:25 on a 737-800.
73 STT757 : "How times have changed! AA is the airline with the stronger case based on having a strong operation at LAX" CO is stronger in Mexico.
74 Ghost77 : YES YES YES!! AS finally applied! I'll cross my fingers! Hope AS get the traffic rights! It would be great so see them back @ MEX! I can assure you th
75 Aa767400 : So AA is stronger in LAX, and CO is stronger in Mexico. Who will be the winner we shall see on th 24th. AS might beat them in the process.
76 EA CO AS : So AA is stronger in LAX, and CO is stronger in Mexico. Who will be the winner we shall see on th 24th. AS might beat them in the process. In a way, i
77 AAplatnumflier : AA in my opinion will win because they are offering to operate the biggest plane...by the way did they ever clear up that policy between America and M
78 Laca773 : Hello everyone, Does anyone have anymore final thoughts on who will get this coveted route ? AA, AS, CO, HP?
79 Post contains links LatinAviation : Don't look for an answer soon. With four carriers vying for one opportunity, the DOT is required to convert this to a carrier-selection proceeding. Ac
80 Byrdluvs747 : HP's angle is that they're the only low-fare airline applying for this route. Putting two legacy carriers on this route will only insure that consumer
81 EA CO AS : Putting two legacy carriers on this route will only insure that consumers are not getting the best price. Hogwash. HP lost a wheelbarrow full of mone
82 ToTheStars : Best of luck to Continental!
83 N1120a : >Does DL still fly LAX-GDL or is that now a codeshare with AeroMexico also?I think the LAX to MEX route should be restricted to planes that can handle
84 777gk : A 737-700/800 on LAX-MEX will NOT be weight restricted except in the most extreme of circumstances. The combination of ample runway length at either e
85 Byrdluvs747 : They're looking to start it because it's high volume AND high yield. DUH! Newsflash! Every airline is looking to make money. My point is that putting
86 Tan flyr : For what is worth...I think AA still has the best shot at it as they have the most online connection possibilites at LAX for the rest of California.
87 EA CO AS : They're looking to start it because it's high volume AND high yield. DUH! Newsflash! Every airline is looking to make money. My point is that putting
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