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Australian Airlines Fleet Replacement & More...  
User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

An interesting article appears in this January's Airline Business magazine with Australian Airlines looking at replacing the B767-300s with aircraft capable of providing more range.

Peter Gregg (Qantas CFO) also states that "An aircraft with longer legs might open up new routes, such as Lebanon and Greece, which have traditionally been strong markets for Australians".

The article also discusses Australian operating to Europe via China.

The only questions now are what aircraft type, A330, A350, B777 or B787 and how soon before they launch new routes as suggested above?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8242 times:

If they are seriously going to upgrade their capability they would seem to be a perfect fit for the new 7E7/787 (which designation are we going to use?) especially with the type routes described.

The A-330 and 777 would both be bigger than the 763, and inflict a different load factor requirement on the airline. If they want to carry more people then they are probably well served to look into the 772 or 773ER to meet this demand. The A-330 would suit medium distance routes for them, and do not seem to be in much use for ultra long haul.

Could you post a link to the article?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8209 times:
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Was there any mention of when the replacement announcement would be made? Currently Australian is basically a leisure airline, due to their current schedules.

User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8179 times:

I can't access the online version of the magazine, however, the url is http://www.airlinebusiness.com/.

There is no mention of a replacement schedule, however, it does mention that the B767-300s are from British Airways and the lease is reaching maturity. It is at this point in time that QF will replace the aircraft.

I guess a replacement schedule could be determined if anyone knows the Australian Airlines aircraft registration numbers & their lease expiration dates.


User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8176 times:

Australian isn't using any of the BA leased 767-300's, they are only deployed on domestic runs.

i'd think they'd go the A332 or the 7E7.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8158 times:

i think they will take QF's remaining B743's, which are currently allocated to MNL, CGK and BOM.

well, at least for the initial period.

in an all Y config, they could easily do 450 seats plus.





User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8145 times:

QF has no plans to dispose of the 743's or lease them to Australian. they are also used to NRT and SIN, AKL and will remain with QF for atleast another 5 years.

they have been refitted and most undergone life extension refit.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8127 times:

Guys it may seem like a longshot,

but, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few A340-300s employed here.
The reason being, although most of the routes the A330-200 would fit well, the A340-300 can cross the pacific. They should be able to get their hand on some used ones at cheaper prices than a 777, and, it would give the the ability to serve places like Canada as well. there are a lot of Australian skiers each winter who now go to Canada every year.

Also the A340 should be able to operate from the shorter runway at the Gold Coast, something the 747 cannot really do. This would allow direct flights from the Gold Coast to Japan. Of course most of this could be done with a A333 or a A332, but the Greece and Lebanon would be good markets for long range A340s flights. (although not high yeilding, lot of family traffic) Just a thought.

I really doubt the 777 has much of a chance here, although they may be able to get a good maintaince deal through Air NZ, particularly if they selected the RR engine.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 8103 times:
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but, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few A340-300s Very highly unlikly.

The A330, B777 and B787 have a very good chance because either QF or NZ operate them or about to operate them. QF have a very good relationship with ANZES. If i remember correctly ANZES do about 30% of QFs maintaince.


User currently offlinePER744 From Australia, joined Mar 2003, 405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8062 times:

I highly doubt you'd see transpacific on Australian Airlines. It would cannibalise the QF flights to LAX.

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8022 times:

i agree. trans-pac for australian airlines is highly unlikely.
i also doubt that QF/AO will go out and purchase brand new aircraft for AO operations.

the cost of re-fitting the B743's [again!] would be significantly less than purchasing A330's or B777.
in short, i don't think AO's aircraft choice will allow for a new type to be introduced.



User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4656 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7963 times:

Before rampant speculation, it did say traditional markets like Lebanon and Greece. Hasn't Qantas flown these destinations before and not found them profitable due to their cost structure?

Incidentally, anyone know the seat mile costs for Australian vs. Qantas?

Trent.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7933 times:

lebanon and greece provide significant VFR traffic outbound from Australia. SYD and MEL.

greece is a popular leisure destinationa laos [islands], and lebanon is an emerging outbound lesire destination.

prior ops {QF dropped athens in 1992} where 2 or 3 class.
an all economy op would make sense.

Furthermore, the flight to/from ATH would stop in BKK or even HKT, as this is popular for the Greece outbound market also.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7865 times:
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QF have given AO their unprofitable routes, just like QF have given JQ their domestic routes.

User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7818 times:

Here is a full copy of the article:

Australian Eyes Europe

Australian Airlines, the low-cost international arm of Qantas, is looking to extend it's reach beyond Asia when it starts replacing its Boeing 767 fleet.

Australian operates five all-economy 767-300s on Asian leisure routes where yields are too low for Qantas to make money. At the end of January Australian will replace Qantas on the Perth-Denpasar (Bali) route, adding yet another Asian destination to it's network.

Australian's 767s are on lease to Qantas from British Airways and Qantas has subleased them on to Australian. Peter Gregg, Qantas chief financial officer, says the BA leases are nearing maturity. When they do, Gregg predicts that Australian will look for a longer-range replacement aircraft. "The 767s limit Australian's ability to fly to certain markets," he says. "An aircraft with longer legs might open up new routes, such as Lebanon and Greece, which have traditionally been strong markets for Australians," Gregg predicts.

Australian could add destinations in that region in that region in the same way it has in Asia, by taking over routes that Qantas has withdrawn or plans to withdraw due to low yields. Gregg views these as more likely candidates for Australian's expansion than transpacific routes to North America, where Qantas operates profitably. Qantas has carefully avoided competition between the parent airline and Australian in any markets.

Mediterranean destinations would bring a shift in Australian's marketing strategy. So far it has focused on inbound leisure traffic, but routes to that region would appeal more to independent and group travel out of Australia.

Any expansion towards Europe opens up other route options. The most likely ones would be those European cities where Qantas has reduced or dropped service due to low yields. Australian might also operate fifth freedom flights to Europe via Asia. Now that Qantas has re-entered China, where it holds fifth freedom rights to much of Europe, the Qantas group is actively analysing whether some Australia-China-Europe routes might suit Australian Airlines better then Qantas.

The two-year-old low-cost airline's initial success points to a likelihood of it entering new markets in the near future. According to Gregg: "Australian bears close watching".

Source: Airline Business magazine, January 2005, Briefing Asia, page 31


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8465 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7635 times:

QF is looking at spending AU$3.5bn on new aircraft. Australian Airlines would most likley get aircraft that fit in with the QF mainline fleet and not some adhoc type that just dosn't fit.

I think we have to wait and see if QF goes 777 or A340 before any decision on which way Australian is going to go. Any 777 or A340 order could include some aircraft for Austrlian. So the fleet could be 772ER for AO and 773ER for QF. Does a fleet like that make sense?


User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6412 times:

Seems to me like they bungled the 767 leasing paragraph. What they probably meant was that if the 763RR aircraft are returned to BA then the 763GE aircraft would be required back at Qantas mainline. Which in itself is probably tied up with the A330 deliveries.

Price on the deal is going to be critical. AO is a low price airline, and capital costs hit ticket prices. So consider that adding another aircraft type to the mix isn't going to be efficient, but then again QF did it with Jetstar and the A320.

This one is wide open and price critical.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12284 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6277 times:
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but then again QF did it with Jetstar and the A320 Yip, but QF and JQ had basically no option due to QF and JQ wanting to be different then DJ. If JQ went with the B738 then the JQ crew would demand the same pay as the QF mainline B738 crews.

User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8465 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5958 times:

that raises the question, are AO crews being paid the same amount as QF 767 crews?

If they are the QF fleet planning could play a much bigger role in deciding which way AO goes with new aircraft.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

All of AO's staff average less than QF's staff.

The cost structure of AO is going to be around 8 cents per ASM. On long haul flights, the extra cost of meals etc doesn't really add much to cost structure, and the cost of capital, labour etc weights more highly, as does fuel, which is one of the reasons SIA has a reasonable seat mile cost despite its extravegant service.

I suggest A340s not of LAX, but for the growing Canadian ski market. The obvious choice here is more A330-200s.... they're already in the fleet and they could do most of those routes. BUT,

if you were after USED aircraft, used A332s are going to be pretty hard to come buy, and they're certainly not going to come cheap. As for flights to europe... who in their right mind wants to travel Australian for that long anyway? Get real? Not when i can probably get just as gooder deal on MAS, Thai or JAL.

Perhaps what this is really aimed at is trying to place some pressure on Emirates, which would be largely sucking up much of the Lebanon market etc.

I really doubt QF would want to introduce another type, but as it was said earlier, this is gonna come down to the cost of capital.


User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5607 times:

Rumors have been around for a while as to what new destinations AO would be flying to. For a while there was and still is talk in the corridors of QF that AO would replace QF on the flights to FRA. Hard to believe, but it has been said. Don't shoot the messenger!!
Personally I find it hard to believe seeing as people would rather prefer to fly on SQ,LH or any other carrier to FRA as opposed to flying a 'low-cost' airline for such a long flight. Plus I am sure those frequent flyers would not be too happy.
IMO I think that HNL would be an option for sure. And who knows, maybe even take the flight back to Vancouver just like QF did a few years back. Lebanon maybe? But there is just no competition between EK and AO.
What about another Indian destination? Or even AO taking over Mumbai?


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

my money would be on AO operating Perth-India services. this can even be done now with a B763ER.

worth noting that AO entered Perth recently with 2pw Bali services. Now that AO have a perth base, who knows.

I doubt AO would operate India from East coast, given QF's investment on the sector ex-SYD, which is fed by AKL, MEL, and BNE among other ports.


User currently offlineMiami1 From Australia, joined Feb 2001, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5473 times:

The leased 767s from BA are used by Qantas mainline not Australian Airlines. The are the 767ACE aircraft. ( those with the 8 DOOR exits) Australian run the 767-300 handed from Qantas. At the moment Australian Airlines cabin crew are not able to operate on sectors greater than 10hrs as per their EBA, im sure this will be altered in time to allow longer flight sectors. The agreement was put in place to partially protect the flying of Qantas Long Haul crews. At a recent Employee work place forum, Rodger Lindeman Qantas Airports Manager said that Australian AIrlines would not be doing the Hawaii flights, but then we know that Qantas Management would never reveal anything to employee's anyway. Im thinking that AO will eventually fly the old QF routes to Athens etc, the fact that they are a one class airline wont bother people coz when the price is right they dont care who they fly on.

User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

Sounds like a perfect chance for the B7E8. But if they want an aircraft which is bigger, they can also get the B7E9.


~DeltaWings



Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3335 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

see reply 21, and today's article in the local press:

QANTAS MAY BE ABOUT TO QUIT SOME ROUTES
AGE
13/01/05
BUSINESS
PAGE 2
Qantas subsidiary Australian Airlines is pushing for its flight attendants to fly longer routes, prompting speculation Qantas wants to cede more of its struggling international routes to the low-cost carrier it set up in 2002. There is speculation Qantas wants its subsidiary to take over services to Honolulu and India.


25 Rj111 : but, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few A340-300s Very highly unlikly. The A330, B777 and B787 have a very good chance because either QF or NZ opera
26 Havik747 : it would be nice to see AO head to the USA even w/ 763s ...CNS-HNL-SFO or SYD-PPT-SFO
27 Qantas077 : you won't see AO in the US except at HNL, that's for sure that HNL will go to AO just when it will happen is the question, as for going to the mainlan
28 Havik747 : Headline Qantas May Be About To Quit Some Routes Date January 13th, 2005 Source The Age - Scott Rochford Qantas May Be About To Quit Some Routes QANT
29 BA : Qantas currently code-shares on Gulf Air's daily BAH-BEY-BAH flight. It be nice to see Australian service in Beirut. SYD-BEY-ATH-BEY-SYD would be grea
30 Post contains links PPVRA : Any chance of seeing Embraers in Aussie and/or Kiwi colors? They would look so nice in QF and NZ colors... plus Embraer has an office in MEL, unfortun
31 Bill142 : dosn't look overly different from the 738, except with a more 7e7ish nose to it.
32 777ER : Don't think NZ will order the EMB as its a regional jet. NZ have no need for a regional jet. If NZ did then they would have ordered some by now.
33 Unicorn : Australian fleet replacement news Australian has issued a quiet request for proposals to the leasing companies for additional A330-200s to be operated
34 6thfreedom : BA, between u and i, don't be surprised if this does happen. TG struggles to make BKK-ATH profitable year round, as the market is highly seasonal. It
35 N1120a : >The A343 has 90% commonality with the A330
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