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CO Ending Four ALB Routes  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Continental Connection carrier CommutAir is ending four routes out of their Albany, New York mini-hub on 24 January 2005. They are:

Albany-Hartford
Albany-Montreal
Albany-Ottawa
Albany-Wilkes Barre

Guess the profit wasn't there...


a.
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMu2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

They should bring back KUCA (Utica). It's just such a nice little airport. They need something.

User currently offlineSpike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Doesn't seem that the profit is anywhere over there.

User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Maybe they will move some of those Beeches down to IAH and start a few smaller texas routes. SPS would definately welcome some CO service.


"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

Maybe they will move some of those Beeches down to IAH and start a few smaller texas routes. SPS would definately welcome some CO service.

No. Skywest does the IAH service, not Commutair. Commutair does Northeast flying (while Gulfstream does Florida/Bahamas and Cape Air does Florida and Guam).

Commutair will be replacing Continental Express on the CLE-DTW route in February. They may replace CoEx on other routes soon.



a.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

I've heard that Commutair served no purpose other than to facilitate CO's entry into HPN. Is that correct? Honestly, why else would CO take an interest in a carrier that has no hub feed whatsoever?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Honestly, why else would CO take an interest in a carrier that has no hub feed whatsoever?

Commutair operates regional flights from CO's Cleveland hub.



a.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

"Commutair operates regional flights from CO's Cleveland hub."

Not before CO took an interest I don't think...plus what does CO do with an ALB "hub"?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2922 times:


Not before CO took an interest I don't think...plus what does CO do with an ALB "hub"?


CO doesn't do anything with an ALB hub.

Commutair is a franchise carrier for Continental, as is Gulfstream and, I believe, Skywest. Commutair pays Continental a fee for being able to use the Continental name and reservation system, but Commutair pays the employees, hires the staff, picks the routes, schedules the aircraft, and collects the revenue from the flights.

Commutair benefits from CO's extensive global network. CO benefits by getting a feeder network. Regardless of what the routes are, it is a feeder network and brings new passengers to CO and allows CO to serve smaller markets, like Naples, San Angelo, Andros Island, and Utica, that they would otherwise not have a presence in.

As for CO's monetary investment into Commutair itself (and they have also invested in Gulfstream Air), well, that is an investment. It invests to put money into a feeder airline to keep their fleet up to standards and that pays you royalities to use their name and image, which you want to keep to high standards.



a.
User currently offlineTjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2494 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Commutair from CLE (some flights are certain days only.)

CVG
PIT
FNT
ERI
FWA
CRW
ELM
AVP
SBN
TOL
GRR



Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2686 times:

"CO doesn't do anything with an ALB hub. "

I know, and that's at least 50% of the Commutair operation, and I bet it's losing money.

"As for CO's monetary investment into Commutair itself (and they have also invested in Gulfstream Air), well, that is an investment."

The ALB hub probably loses money, and I'd bet the CLE operation is not segment profitable, but maybe beyond profitable. I just think there's an ulterior motive for CO's purchase of Commutair and I've heard it's the HPN slots. It'd be interesting to see both Commutair's and CO's operations at HPN before and after the purchase. Any idea when the 3 daily CLE/HPNs started?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRamerinianair From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2687 times:

I just witnessed the ALB-Montreal and Ottawa flights go out with a zero load factor on Sunday!!!
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2657 times:

Are these aircraft being moved to support the expansion of South Florida/Bahamas service?

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

I'm not surprised. BE1 operations are falling out of fashion, if not already, and few, if any, are profitable. I have a lot of contact with the Great Lakes operation here in Denver and also the Commutair operation in Ithaca when it was part of USAirways Express and then Continental Connection briefly. Unless the breakeven load factof of that aircraft is 12% I can't imagine either are doing very well.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

"Are these aircraft being moved to support the expansion of South Florida/Bahamas service?"

They're two completely different entities but I think I'd see more aircraft at CLE before they were ferried down to the Carribean. The aircraft are not allowed at EWR so you can scratch that off the list.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAirT85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Forgive my ignorance, but why arent the aircraft allowed at Newark?

-Tony


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

I could have sworn there was a minimum seat capacity of 30 seats to operate into/out of EWR, or it might have been a minimum landing speed with which the BE1 does not comply.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8341 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Commutair will be replacing Continental Express on the CLE-DTW route in February.

I don't understand why they would even operate the route with a 1900. Same with CVG- DL flies 737s to CVG and NW flies DC-9s to DTW but CO can only scrape up a Beech? They're all partners why doesn't CO just drop the route?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineOH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1436 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Commutair is a franchise carrier for Continental, as is Gulfstream and, I believe, SkyWest.

SkyWest is... for the time being, however, we've just been underbid on our Continental Connection contract on ex-IAH routes, and our agreement will end in the near future.

Kai



Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

They're all partners why doesn't CO just drop the route?

CO/NW/DL cannot codeshare on hub routes.



a.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4514 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

The ALB hub probably loses money, and I'd bet the CLE operation is not segment profitable, but maybe beyond profitable. I just think there's an ulterior motive for CO's purchase of Commutair and I've heard it's the HPN slots. It'd be interesting to see both Commutair's and CO's operations at HPN before and after the purchase. Any idea when the 3 daily CLE/HPNs started?

How do you know this? If CO had to buy a controlling interest in Commutair to get HPN slots, they'd presumably have cut all non-performing non-HPN routes once they got the slots. It seems to me that the service itself is the better indicator. If Commutair keeps the majority of ALB spokes going, it more likely means the hublet is probably doing just fine. ALB, unlike EWR, doesn't get congested. Business pax--for whom CO has tailored their product--probably like faster and quieter connections at ALB on routes for which EWR would be a bit out of the way.

I remember reading in the Rochester paper I think it was, that part of the reason CO set up the ALB hublet was to route some pax around EWR. EG, Upstate NY to New England. Also, there's history to suggest that ALB is well located to work as a small-carrier hublet: Mall Airways ran a hublet with 19-seat a/c there during the 1980's.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17787 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

"How do you know this? "

It's just a guess, but a reasonably good one. Knowing what happens at other BE1 carriers and experiencing a lot of the Commutair operation first hand, combined with the industries distaste for props--especially 19 seat props, and the fact that they just cut four routes, I'd guess that they are not making money at ALB. Is Commutair subsidized at all?

[Edited 2005-01-18 21:55:23]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSmAlbany From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

All I know is that the number of flights that commutair has been flying out of ALB has dropped recently. Most of the routes appear to have been reduced from 4 daily to 2 daily. There are also 4 to 5 of their aircraft that have been parked at the maintenance hanger for a few weeks. I'm not sure what this says for Commutair's future at ALB.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8341 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

CO/NW/DL cannot codeshare on hub routes.

In that case how can CO expect to make money flying flippers on routes where NW and DL are flying mainline?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineDC-10inLB From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Commutair is an independant carrier with a contract to fly for Continental. As to why CO doesn't drop some of the routes like CLE-CVG and give it to a partner, sometimes theres nothing like having your own brand fly in there. Though the B1900 is small, it offers a frequency and perhaps fullfills the demand that CO has for that route that they may not be able to achieve with the 73s. My freind used to fly it, not sure how the loads were though. Who knows perhaps they'll find their way to Texas as we've (SkyWest) been underbid and are leaving that system. So I suppose we'll be getting a few more silver birds back into the UA/DL system.

25 Ncflyer : If WN flew CLE-CVG (a hyptothetical) I'd guarantee you they would fill up a bunch of 737s. There's tons of demand on that route, it's all on I-71 righ
26 Ncflyer : Tjwgrr I don't see where you get CLE-GRR, it's not on the commutair website or continental.com on the dates I checked in Feb. Do you know something?
27 CLEfan : Ncflyer, I saw one flight on Saturday operated by a BE1 when I checked the timetable for July. All the rest are ERJs.
28 MaverickM11 : On a completely unrelated note, I've always found that the BE1 crews for both Commutair and Air Midwest have been some of the nicest, most down to ear
29 Columbia409 : The ALB flights in question are seasonal and will return in the spring. No news here.
30 MAH4546 : The ALB flights in question are seasonal and will return in the spring. No news here. No, they are not. They are clearly listed as being discontinued
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