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$100,000 To Fill 'er (him) Up-A380  
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13002 times:

I was watching the show "Forbes on Fox" this morning, and it posed the question "how much does it cost to fill up the A380 Super Jumbo" and the answer was "$100,000".

we know that its obviously going to be cheaper to fill in Euros (76,944.00 EUR)

( 1 USD = 0.769440 EUR /1 EUR = 1.29965 USD)

ok..we do know different places have different jet fuel prices, but I assume they took some kind of average. Assuming that.......

1) is that statement (by Fox)to be correct?
2) how much does it cost to fill up a somewhat competitve aircraft such as the 747-400?
3) given the available data/information as of right now, does anyone know how much it will cost to break even on a 380 flight for some aircarrier such as SQ or EK?

p.s.-I put "Him" because some say its going to be the new "King" of the skies.... Big grin


"Up the Irons!"
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12971 times:

I thought it cost more than $100,000 to fill up a 747.. Be interesting to find out.


Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26190 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12718 times:

>I put "Him" because some say its going to be the new "King" of the skies....<

All planes are she, just like ships and cars. There is, however, only one Queen of the Skies.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12624 times:

It depnds what cost the airlines hedge their fuel at, but with 81890 gallons of fuel capacity this I am afraid see the fuel bill be a lot higher than $100,000.

http://www.aviationboom.com/features/feature_A380.shtml



User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26190 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12596 times:

At $1.20, which is apparently what the airlines have been paying lately, we are talking $98,268 to fill the plane.

At 57,285 gallons for a 744, that is $68,742. $76,446 for the 63,702 gallon 744ER



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12304 times:

stand corrected sorry about that. I thought fuel in these times was sometimes up to about 20% of the total flight cost.


User currently offlineFlybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12251 times:

Yes, there is only one "Queen of the Skies" so the A380 shall be "Empress of the Skies". Our venerable beauty keeps her regal title while her larger counterpart takes precedence.

As for the cost of fuel... yes, it would be a large up-front expense to fill up an A380, but it is the long term costs that are most important in the airline industry and the A380 is supposed to be quite an efficient Goliath.



"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12013 times:

Flybyguy..........

there are two majour assumptions being made here

1)the cost of flying the 380 is as Airbus has predicted... 1/5 cheaper (20%) than flying the 747-400 (operational/net..what have you).....i'm not so sure if they will be able to make it that much cheaper to operate the 380 over the 747

2) if they can fill those seats.......yes..some routes will do well.and boeing has never disagreed with that.....but what about seasonality and why has JAL gone from a 747's to 777's from Japan to slot-restricted LHR?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1917168/



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11866 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR

All planes are she, just like ships and cars.


Aren't Russian ships referred to as "he"?


2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11850 times:

N1120a - I totally agree with you, the A380 is the only Queen of the Skies.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11839 times:

The 380 might be the biggest thing out there for pax travel, but the 747 will to me at least, ALWAYS be the Queen of the skies..something which she has EARNED over the DECADES...the 380 has yet to even fly!!


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinePosti From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11824 times:

I've seen a private A340 spend upwards of $110,000 on fuel regularly. They could give me 10,000 of that and I'd be happy.

User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11809 times:

Shouldn't the 'King' of the sky be given to the aircraft with the most flight time?.. has spent more time in the sky than any other aircraft?  Big grin


Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11801 times:

The Queen is dead, long live the Queen! Like it or not, the 747 is no longer the 'Queen of the Skies' but now the 'Has-been of the Skies'.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11792 times:

"The Queen is dead, long live the Queen! Like it or not, the 747 is no longer the 'Queen of the Skies' but now the 'Has-been of the Skies'."

I didn't know the 747 has outlived is usefulness yet.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineWindowFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11611 times:

The German Battleship Bismarck was referred to as he.
He was supposedly too powerful to be called she. (According to the captain)

I think King of the skies suites the A380, as the B747 will always be Queen.



Flown: A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ-200,Dash-8,HS-748,Concorde
User currently offlineStas From Poland, joined Mar 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11588 times:

Aren't Russian ships referred to as "he"?

Most words that describe ships in Russian have feminine gender; however, the most commonly used general word for a ship has a masculine gender, hence most people refer to ships as "He". I could not think of any word that describe an aircraft and have feminine gender, thus people refer to airplanes as "He".


User currently offlineRichie87 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10522 times:

Given that the A380 does have the fuel capacity of a few tanker trucks at over 80 K gallons, I suppose it's reasonable to eventually expect a fill-up bill at over 100 K $ USD regardless of whether it's measured in US or Imperial gallons. Whew. Hope they take credit cards, ha ha.

Another subject that interests me about the A380 is the venting systems that are designed-in to cope with pressurization loss. That was a huge problem in the early DC-10 series aircraft, where sudden depressurization caused floor collapse and other assorted disasters. I know they eventually retro-fitted something like "blow out" panels in the floor with a 3 psi-g differential or something like that. The A380 has two floors, of course, and a whole lotta cubed volume of pressurized air. Any comments?

Regarding the gender referance of ships and such... it's been traditional for ages to refer to ships in the feminine "she", although there have been exceptions. I do know that Russian Submarines were nearly always referred as "he", which, well- just does not sound right ! As it is... subs were almost always called "boats", although the US Navy and their nuclear fleet has adopted the "ship" phrase.

As regards most Airbus products.... I tend to refer to them as "it". IT is one big bloody mother of an aircraft !!


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9646 times:

The average fuel cost in the us is 2.15 from what I have heard that airlines have been paying, which is 176,063.50. However, some places on the east coast are 3.05 a gallon, but the airlines typically pay $2.75, which is 225,197.50. Now lets say they still have 2200 gallons when the land and such, which then it may only need 95% of her tanks full, which is 77795.5-2200= 75595.5 multiply that by the average of $2.15 that comes to $162,530.33


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6285 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9571 times:

At a major airport near a shipping harbor or near a refinery $100,000 will be pretty close to the final bill.

So when the 555 three class seats are filled, and if it lands with empty tanks (which it doesn't) then it will be $180 and 18 cent for each passenger for bringing him (her) to practically the other side of the globe.

No other airliner can do it that cheaply.

With a relatively generous all economy class layout it will bring each seat 7,000 miles away for a roughly $100.00 fuel bill per seat. How far does your car go with $100 worth gas?

My VW Golf will bring me 551.34 miles, which is 6,448.66 miles less. But then there are places where gas is less heavily taxed than here. In the US I would go slightly over 1,000 miles.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineN1120a From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26190 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9545 times:

>I totally agree with you, the A380 is the only Queen of the Skies.<

Apparently you don't agree with me, or have no idea what you are thinking.


Burnsie, I believe those numbers for fuel are the FBO prices, which the airlines pay much, much less than



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9540 times:

Nope they are not the FBO prices, for instance, the FBO prices at msp are something like $4.40 a gallon.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Let's see...

Average 747-400 has 416 seats.

Average A380 will have 550 seats.

747-400 (range 7,260nm) :

57,285 / 416 = 137.70432 gallons per seat

52.721657 seat miles (nm) per gallon

-

747-400ER (range 7,670nm):

63,705 / 416 = 153.13701 gallons per seat

50.085867 seat miles (nm) per gallon

-

A380 (range 8,000nm estimated):

81,890 / 555 = 147.54954 gallons per seat

54.219077 seat miles (nm) per gallon

All data from each manufacturer's website.

So, basically, you're gaining two seat miles per gallon over the 747-400 and four seat miles over the 747-400ER, a 4%-8% improvement. On those routes where an airline can fill every seat, the A380 makes more sense.

However, on a route where the A380 would run at 70% full (389 passengers) and a 747 would run at 85% full (354 passengers), the numbers change drastically. The Airbus runs at 210.5... gallons per passenger, while the 747-400 runs at 161.8... gallons per passenger. Airbus efficiency drops to approx 38 passenger miles (nm) per gallon while 747-400 efficiency drops only to slightly less than 44.9 passenger miles (nm) per gallon.

So as you can see, if the A380 is running at the same capacity as a 747, it is more efficient. However, if routes are more appropriate for 747s than A380s in terms of demand, the A380 will actually be a big waste of both fuel and space.

Of course, these numbers are imperfect because we're calculating based upon a) total fuel capacity, not the actual amount of fuel required to travel the max specified range and b) the A380 hasn't yet actually flown, so we don't know what it's actual efficiencies are.

Personally, I think Airbus would have been better off choosing an aircraft with significantly greater efficiency (say, 7E7 material?) than going with a behemoth that needs to be full to beat the competition.



As for the $100,000 price tag, depending on hedging and all, I can easily see an A380 using $100,000 of fuel or more on a given flight. Some flights originating in some cities could easily top $200,000. Fortunately, if that were, say, LAX-SYD, that $200,000 price tag would be shared among the 555 passengers at $360 apiece.

Since the lowest-price fare I could find between those two cities is $1275 round-trip and that's a heavily discounted coach fare, I don't think there will be too much of a problem with all the economy-plus, business and first-class seating available (which is readily bought, I might add!)...



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineNyc777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5666 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9474 times:

$100,000 to fill up an A380 gas tank! And I thought filling up my Honda Pilot with $40 was a lot!! Sheesh!


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1848 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9460 times:


No other airliner can do it that cheaply.


Not true. There are planes currently in service that can do better than the A380.

For example, the 773er has a fuel capacity of 47,890 US gal.

47,890 US gal / 365 pax = 131.2 US gal / pax

For the a380:

81,890 US gal / 555 pax = 147.5 US gal / pax

The 773er has slightly less range than the a380, 120nm to be exact. That's 1.5% less than a380's.

Taking this into account, the a380 burns about 10% more fuel per seat than the 773er.

This is not a very scientific comparison. We have to see the acutal fuel burn on specific missions. But it does give you a rough idea.


25 Jacobin777 : "Since the lowest-price fare I could find between those two cities is $1275 round-trip and that's a heavily discounted coach fare," I found this on or
26 Jeffrito : This is an interesting discussion ... Anybody care to extend the cost / revenue comparisons between models to include crew & freight?
27 Teva : Dynkrisolo, One elemenet is missing in your demonstration: For some of those very long flights, a huge portion is over oceans. In this case, the flown
28 JFKviaPHX : I'm ready... We do 744s from JFK to NRT and ICN everyday. A few days we do FJK to PEK. It depends on the flights conditions, but the pounds range from
29 OO-VEG : How about 1st class?? The statements that airfares get cheaper because the A380 is cheaper to operate may be true. But wouldn't the real benefit come
30 Dynkrisolo : Teva: One elemenet is missing in your demonstration: For some of those very long flights, a huge portion is over oceans. In this case, the flown dista
31 Prebennorholm : Dear Dynkrisolo (refering to reply #24), your comparison between A380 and B777ER is a little like apples and oranges. If we configure an A380 with the
32 Jeffrito : If we configure an A380 with the same seat arrangement as a 365 pax 777ER, then the A380 will not acommodate 555 pax, but something like 100 more than
33 Dynkrisolo : If we configure an A380 with the same seat arrangement as a 365 pax 777ER, then the A380 will not acommodate 555 pax, but something like 100 more tha
34 Boeing7E7 : First of all... Gas is running $1.18 a gallon plus 34% overhead, for a total cost of $1.58 delivered. Second, as you increase the number of seats on t
35 Cloudboy : OK, for all of us who suck at math, could someone put together a kind of graph for this? Let's pick three planes. Let's also say that they are all con
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