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What Is Up With DL Cancellations At PHL  
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

Before anyone blames the weather, I understand there was a major storm on the east cost, which impacted PHL to BOS and that PHL was closed yesterday. However, PHL is open today. I was scheduled to fly into PHL today from CVG at 11AM, but the flight has been cancelled as well as most DL flights into PHL today. When I pull up PHL on FBOWeb, it seems that most airlines have started operations back into and out of PHL with the exception of DL. AirTran is running flights to and from ATL and US, NW, CO, UA and SW are all running, maybe not full schedules, but they are running. So what gives with DL? They continue to blame it on weather, which would not explain it as the other airlines are running. Did they have too much equipment out of place as a result of storm? One would think DL would have made PHL a priority to open back due to the big game today, I guess not.


Tailwinds!!!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7024 times:

I am sure it is the snow ball effect (no pun intended) from yesterdays operations. None of the planes and or crews are where they are supposed to be.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

Sorry guy..two words..the weather.

Comair, which I guess your actually flying on has CX'd many flights in the effected area due to the storm. Something like 60% of their route structure was directly effected by this storm. Runways still need to be cleaned, aircraft are not in the correct positions and the same holds true with the flight crews. You can't just snap your fingers after it stops snowing and have everything back on schedule. In most cases it takes 48 hrs after the storm passes to be back to full schedule.

[Edited 2005-01-23 20:33:33]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

EMBQA,

My flight was DL, not OH. Second, your explanation does not explain it. The runways are clear at PHL. As of 1931Z, there were 52 flights inbound to PHL (see below), with the exception of the one DL flight from SLC, there are no other DL flights. So how can DL be the only airline that has been so impacted when others are up and running? I guess the others are better at snapping their fingers.


Flight Type Origin Dist(NM) ETA


MES3602 RJ85 MSP MINNEAPOLIS-ST PAUL INTL/WOLD-CHAMBERLAIN/ 2 N/A
SWA863 B733 HOU WILLIAM P HOBBY 9 02:21 PM EST (1921Z)
USA1620 E170 ATL HARTSFIELD - JACKSON ATLANTA INTL 11 02:21 PM EST (1921Z)
TRS748 B712 RSW SOUTHWEST FLORIDA INTL 12 02:21 PM EST (1921Z)
N200SK GLF3 SLC SALT LAKE CITY INTL 12 02:21 PM EST (1921Z)
ASH7192 CRJ2 IAD WASHINGTON DULLES INTERNATIONAL 18 02:23 PM EST (1923Z)
USA77 A319 MMUN CANCUN INTL 18 02:22 PM EST (1922Z)
JIA9387 CRJ2 RIC RICHMOND INTERNATIONAL 25 02:23 PM EST (1923Z)
USA140 A321 DEN DENVER INTL 36 02:26 PM EST (1926Z)
BAW213 B772 EGLL HEATHROW 38 02:24 PM EST (1924Z)
JIA9384 CRJ2 BNA NASHVILLE INTL 41 02:26 PM EST (1926Z)
EJA671 C56X CUB COLUMBIA OWENS DOWNTOWN 56 02:28 PM EST (1928Z)
TRS756 B712 FLL FORT LAUDERDALE/HOLLYWOOD INTL 61 02:29 PM EST (1929Z)
(blocked) LJ60 BDL BRADLEY INTL 76 02:28 PM EST (1928Z)
JIA2422 CRJ2 TYS MC GHEE TYSON 77 02:30 PM EST (1930Z)
USA9025 A320 MMUN CANCUN INTL 87 02:29 PM EST (1929Z)
ASH8908 E145 CAE COLUMBIA METROPOLITAN 119 02:35 PM EST (1935Z)
PDT4259 DH8A ROA ROANOKE REGIONAL/WOODRUM FIELD 120 02:43 PM EST (1943Z)
USA246 B733 MHT MANCHESTER 132 02:36 PM EST (1936Z)
PDT4139 DH8A CHO CHARLOTTESVILLE-ALBEMARLE 150 02:55 PM EST (1955Z)
USA9034 A319 ORF NORFOLK INTL 153 02:43 PM EST (1943Z)
USA634 B752 LAS MC CARRAN INTL 169 02:38 PM EST (1938Z)
USA51 B734 BDL BRADLEY INTL 172 02:56 PM EST (1956Z)
COA1476 B735 IAH GEORGE BUSH INTERCONTINENTAL ARPT/HOUSTON 176 02:42 PM EST (1942Z)
USA1716 E170 MCI KANSAS CITY INTL 182 02:40 PM EST (1940Z)
USA244 B734 MCO ORLANDO INTL 192 02:43 PM EST (1943Z)
USA101 B733 DFW DALLAS/FORT WORTH INTERNATIONAL 205 02:43 PM EST (1943Z)
USA1058 B734 RSW SOUTHWEST FLORIDA INTL 219 02:47 PM EST (1947Z)
AAL1146 MD82 ORD CHICAGO O'HARE INTL 225 02:46 PM EST (1946Z)
USA436 A320 MYNN NASSAU INTL 247 02:50 PM EST (1950Z)
FIV318 C550 MFD MANSFIELD LAHM REGIONAL 268 03:07 PM EST (2007Z)
USA502 B733 JAX JACKSONVILLE INTL 304 02:59 PM EST (1959Z)
USA1260 B733 ORD CHICAGO O'HARE INTL 322 02:59 PM EST (1959Z)
USA545 B734 PBI PALM BEACH INTL 357 03:06 PM EST (2006Z)
USA9027 A319 MBPV PROVIDENCIALES 479 03:21 PM EST (2021Z)
DAL677 B738 SLC SALT LAKE CITY INTL 570 03:29 PM EST (2029Z)
CHQ5785 E145 STL LAMBERT-ST LOUIS INTL 636 04:00 PM EST (2100Z)
AAL402 MD83 DFW DALLAS/FORT WORTH INTERNATIONAL 648 03:36 PM EST (2036Z)
DLH426 H/A343/W EDDF FRANKFURT MAIN 650 03:54 PM EST (2054Z)
SWA1125 B737 LAX LOS ANGELES INTL 666 03:39 PM EST (2039Z)
USA1089 B734 MIA MIAMI INTL 869 04:51 PM EST (2151Z)
UAL264 T/B733/Q DEN DENVER INTL 887 04:25 PM EST (2125Z)
SWA2332 B735 MSY LOUIS ARMSTRONG NEW ORLEANS INTL 923 05:17 PM EST (2217Z)
USA28 A320 SFO SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL 966 04:24 PM EST (2124Z)
USA86 A320 SAN SAN DIEGO INTL 1137 04:54 PM EST (2154Z)
AWE250 A319 PHX PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL 1163 04:59 PM EST (2159Z)
N426QS GLF4 JAC JACKSON HOLE 1194 04:55 PM EST (2155Z)
FFT448 A318 DEN DENVER INTL 1243 05:00 PM EST (2200Z)
SWA804 B737 OAK METROPOLITAN OAKLAND INTL 1336 05:16 PM EST (2216Z)
USA9029 A321 SEA SEATTLE-TACOMA INTL 1608 05:45 PM EST (2245Z)
USA618 B752 LAS MC CARRAN INTL 1890 09:05 PM EST (0205Z)
USA12 A321 LAX LOS ANGELES INTL 1942 06:58 PM EST (2358Z)








Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

You are incorrect. Not all other airlines are "up and running" most airlines are running on a limited schedule as is DL. You yourself noted that there is a flight from SLC so that should show you that DL is not just shutting down in PHL today. I can assure you that DL did not just say, "We don't want to operate a few flights to PHL today so lets blame it on the weather and call it quits!" Like mentioned above crews and aircraft are all out of position ATL being DL's base was completely messed up yesterday with weather and taking diversions from further up the coast. When you have a problem like that at a major hub it can really mess up airlines based there. Again I cant find a single airline that has resumed 100% service yet and DL is one of them, the only reason that you have a problem with this is because its your flight. Remember the airline doesn't know or care who you are they cancel flights because they have to not because they want to so just wait until tomorrow when they are not so busy and give them a call, act very polite and they will take care of you. The only other option is to call them and hassle them about how its not the weather and other airlines are flying like you have done here only to get the same response from a much more angery agent. I will promise you that your call will not get a plane in the air!

Calm down, and just reschedule. No big deal!



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6875 times:

UAL747DEN,

I understand about crews and planes are out of position, I am asking why DL seems to having more of a problem than everyone else? DL going down to one flight from SLC is pretty significant, again while the other airlines have SOME flights coming in from around the country, including from ATL (AirTran). I am not calling and complaining to the CSRs and am calm, unlike you assume in your message. Nor did I ever say that operations are completely up and running for all other airlines. In fact I said that "most airlines" have resumed operations and "maybe not full schedules." So I totally accept the problems this storm has caused. My question pertains to why DL seems to be having more of an impact, and in fact I even asked if this was due to planes being out of position. Maybe you should read the thread more carefully before throwing out false accusations.

However, your information on ATL and the problems does explain the issue. Maybe this points to a larger problem at DL, in that it is consolidating so much of its operations at one airport (ATL) that when a storm hits anywhere west of the Rockies (generalization) it cripples too much of their system.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Just because the runways are open doesn't mean the roads and/or commute is open for DL's employees to make it to work. PHL isn't a big operation for DL so if 5 or 6 employees called in "sick" because they are unable to make it to work then DL can't have more than 1 flight on the ground at a time. Not to mention none of the crews/planes are where they were supposed to be. So if DL has to cancel a flight today to balance equipment or crews you better believe it will be one to a short staffed PHL before they cancel an ATL-SRQ flight or something similar.


It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineSwadispatcher From United States of America, joined May 2004, 427 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6822 times:

You also have to look at crosswind limits for the airplanes.. we were out of xwind limits for a while this afternoon on the 9/27's because the braking action was down to "fair".. they are plowing the north-south runway (17/35) and we should be good to go in a little while..

The airport authority also said that the high winds are blowing the snow all over the place, including back onto the just cleared/treated runways..



Maintain 2300 until Boiler, cleared for the VOR-A approach, report BATLE inbound..
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6816 times:

Thanks DeltaMIA,

Now that makes sense.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6789 times:

Don't forget.... the Eagles are playing today...so cough-cough..I'm sick and not going to work...  Big grin


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

Second, your explanation does not explain it. The runways are clear at PHL

It explains it perfectly. Just because the weather gets better doesn't mean everything-crews and aircraft-are exactly where they should be.

Unfortunately, you don't realize the tremendous disorganization that takes place during and after a major weather event, my friend. Crews and aircraft are out of positions, sometimes for up to 24 hours, as they are either diverted to other cities because of the weather, or they just never made it it.

It's possible your aircraft for your trip was what is called a RON aircraft: a Remain Over Night aircraft, that didn't make it in the night before becuase of the storm. It's possible your plane was there, but your crew was stuck in another city, or they were on a lengthy crew rest becuase of a long day on Saturday.

It could be your crew is there, but no aircraft available to fly because it was out of position from the storm.

Just because it's suddenly sunny doesn't mean things go back to normal. It's one of my little pet peeves with the general public that they're so ignorant about such things.

I am asking why DL seems to having more of a problem than everyone else?

First, how do you know that? I'll bet CO in EWR, UA in IAD, and WN in PHL are having fun today, trying to get back to normal? And let's look at a few things: two of DL's hubs, ATL and CVG both had severe weather days yesterday-CVG had heavy snow, and ATL had high winds yesterday. Since that's where DL funnels most of their a/c to/from, I imagine their system is a little bit of a mess today.

Again, just becuse the sun comes out doesn't mean things go back to normal. You say you understand about planes and crews being out of place. Your words belie what you say, my friend.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6730 times:

"CVG both had severe weather days yesterday-CVG had heavy snow"

That is funny...I live in Cincinnati and we got less than one inch of snow yesterday. The storm went North of us and just abou totally missed CVG.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6695 times:

Just because it's suddenly sunny doesn't mean things go back to normal. It's one of my little pet peeves with the general public that they're so ignorant about such things.

Falcon84...you my friend just got added to my Respected list.  Smile That was the point I was trying to make. The general public has NO IDEA what a logistical nightmare a day like that can be. I have seen a typical summer thunderstorm shut BOS down for two hours with the ramps wet and the skies clear after the storm had passed. The general public P-O'd at the Gate Agents, not understanding the plane they are scheduled to fly on is stuck in PWM, now getting slammed by that same storm, and the crew that is scheduled to fly it is in BGR grounded to to the high winds and heavy rain from the approching front.


[Edited 2005-01-23 23:00:30]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 6692 times:

Funny but read this article in the Cincinnati Enquirer, that shows how badly CVG was affected. The storm missed you, but it certainly had a major impact on ops there. I stand by what I said about you know really understanding the situation.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050123/NEWS01/501230424


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6632 times:

Plus, DL had a larger number of a/c and crews @ ATL than normal because of cancelled flight caused additional a/c to RON @ ATL (DL was parking planes anywhere they could @ ATL; they had nearly every gate on E filled [including gates where UA RON a few a/c @ ATL], and they've parked a/c @ Mercury Air Center and on the ramp @ South Cargo.). No telling how screwed up crew scheduling is with everything that's occurred with this storm.

User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

Ok I have confirmed that DL's opps were messed up yesterday and today due to problems at ATL. Flights into ATL were put on a ground stop yesterday due to the weather and diversions from other airports that were closed and delayed. When an airline like DL that connects almost all of its flights through one mega hub looses that mega hub its a real pain to get things back to normal and it effects the airline across the board not only at the one station. Most of the time it takes about 48 hours to get things back to normal. What the dispatchers do after and during the storm is figure out what flights are going to be DIRECTLY effected by the storm then put them in a special section on their "Table" (not a real table but called that in the computer program) Next they see what flights are going to be INDIRECTLY effected by the storm and from there see if they can arrange to get the appropriate crew and aircraft to "skip" the directly effected station and pick up the line from that point on. They will then dispatch the crews and aircraft to the lines that they can use the "skip" method on. Next they will see what they have left and sort it by priority to start a sort of point to point schedule to cover what they can of the other effected cities. This will go on until normal ops can resume. Now in the case of DL they had another thing that really hit them and that was their mega hub was on a huge delay so take all the other bad things and multiply that by 10! Hope ya get the point and that helps out.


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

"I stand by what I said about you know really understanding the situation." and "Your words belie what you say, my friend"

OK guys.....you just are not getting the point!

The reason I am asking the question is not to get insulted, but to gain that understanding. One fact that I purposely did not state is what the CSR did tell me when my flight was cancelled.... She said that PHL was closed. The time was Sunday morning and at the time PHL was not closed. So she either was given false information or just lied. It really doesn't matter. I left this fact out to not start a flame war about CSRs and customer service. However, by leaving this out, when I said I could not accept a weather delay it was proably confusing to most. What I meant was I could not just accept a wx cancellation specific to PHL, and that it must be something else beyond PHL that is impacting operations at PHL.

I am just trying to understand why DL was so impacted and seem to be taking longer to get some operations up. Some of the information that some of you are providing is helpful in gaining that understanding. But the insults are not. There is no difference in me asking this question than someone asking why windows are not in an airplane's bathroom on all airlines or the daily question of when NW will retire its DC-9s. It is all in an attempt to share information and gain an understanding.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6550 times:

Skibum-

You need to look at the whole picture. Southwest, America West, AirTrain all are less effected then Delta as they are departing from warm cities not effected by the storm. Your Delta flight departed out of CVG, a DL hub city and directly effected by weather elsewhere in the system. CVG is for the most part filled by flight in and out of the northeast. As I have said before. Your plane may have been stuck in BOS, your flight crew stuck in ALB. Also, PHL may have been open, but DAL-PHL Ops may have been shut down.

There are many-many things that impact a flight into a city, and not all airlines are effected by the same things.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6534 times:

Dear Skibum9,

Delta is a really big airline with a lot of airplanes. We run everything out of Atlanta and through Atlanta and Cincinatti. When a part of the country has a weather issue, like what has just occurred in the Midwest and East, WE ANTICIPATE.

We do not send our jets and crew into harms way. We cancel. And after that it takes a day or to get everything repositioned...crews and airplanes.

A lot of us get very tired of the negative stuff that people send Delta's way so I think your question was taken in a wrong light.

Suffice to to say, Delta is a very proactive carrier. I am sorry that you were inconvenienced in any way with the weather cancellations that occurred.

And regarding the CSR's comment about that airport being closed, she night have been told at some point that it was. I doubt that she intentionally lied to you.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6416 times:

The reason I am asking the question is not to get insulted, but to gain that understanding

Seems to me a plethora of users are doing just that for you! We're trying to explain the simple fact that after a major storm, the airlines can't snap their fingers and things go back immediately to normal. Again, in a storm as big as this, that affected airports from Minneapolis to Cincinnati to Boston-the busiest concentration of airplanes in the world, it takes, at least, 24 hours for things to get back to normal. And that means crews out of position and on extended legality rests, and planes scattered where they normally wouldn't be.



User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

Here is a prime example of how one event can multiply....

Looking at Flytecomm, there are no American Eagle BOS-BGR or LGA-BGR flights scheduled tonight. BGR is a MX base for AE so every night they overnight 3 to 4 aircraft in BGR for routine MX. These aircraft are coming in for time sensitive MX and can NOT fly again until the MX is completed. Most of these checks must be done in a hangar. These aircraft are also flying a 'fixed line' meaning their schedule is set up so they are in the right place at the right time to have the right MX completed at the right MX base. So now American Eagle has several problems .... The aircraft are not going to make to to BGR for their scheduled MX....that MX must now be completed somewhere....and American Eagle HAS NO PLANES in BGR to fly the next morning outbounds to BOS or LGA as the aircraft set to fly those lines NEVER made it up to BGR to begin with and has to CX more flights.



[Edited 2005-01-24 04:57:57]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6029 times:

>>>I understand about crews and planes are out of position, I am asking why DL seems to having more of a problem than everyone else?

I just have to ask this, but isn't possible that your assessment that Delta "has more of a problem" could be emotionally influenced by the fact that your personal flight was one of the ones cancelled?

Others here have offered numerous operationally rational reasons for what may have happened, yet you seem to still be disbelieving...


User currently offlineFlyer732 From Namibia, joined Nov 1999, 1363 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5307 times:

any time you're questioning airport status...

www.fly.faa.gov/ois


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