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New Routes For Song?  
User currently offlineLaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4058 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5992 times:
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Hi Everyone,
Just wanted to know if Delta's low fare arm, Song, will be adding any new routes early this year especially with current financial turmoil going on right now at their main unit? I had heard they were going to replace their transcon's: JFK--->LAX, SFO, SEA & SAN with Song LCC service. Is this true? I still DL mainline on their LAX-JFK-LAX runs.

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5953 times:

Well I hadn't heard about LAX, but have heard about the others plus DEN. Also SJU and SDQ.
I don't think DL will pull mainline off of JFK-LAX, but you never know.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineLaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4058 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5921 times:
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They are running DL mainline on the LAX-JFK-LAX run like it's Song, and I remember a while back there was a lot of talk about this. Hope to hear more.

User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5876 times:

Doesnt DL have bigger things to worry about then expansing song?

User currently offlineJkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5843 times:

JFK-SAN will be discontinued on Jan. 31st

User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

Delta mainline is pulling out of JFK-SAN pretty soon. So far, nothing in the schedules shows a resumption, flown by Song or otherwise.

Aaron G.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4956 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5554 times:
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Official announcements about future Song routes will be made in February, with service starting in late spring and/or early summer. Here's hoping they maintain at least 1-2 JFK-LAX and 1 JFK-SFO mainline flights while turning the others over to song. Otherwise, they'll be hearing it from premium travelers connecting from Europe to LAX/SFO via JFK...

User currently offlineLaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4058 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5353 times:
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Thanks for the information.
DL's transcon service has seriously gone down hill and fast. It used to be the best, and now you can't compare it to anyone but JetBlue unless you fly F and with that in mind I'd rather deal with the traffic on the 405 to take Jet Blue. Great service, roomy, clean aircraft, free video.....


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

They need to announce something already.. I want to see which stations will be opened up..


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3098 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

Sure would be great if they'd add some out of ATL. Would be great fun to fly Song to LAS or SEA...


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineBillelliott9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5178 times:

Anyone know how Song is doing on the Florida (FLL/MCO/TPA) transcons to LAX or LAS?

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

JFK-LAX AND JFK-SFO were quoted in an article as being to of the routes Song will start. The article was quoting the Song Director.

I'd like to se at least one-more JFK-LAS, Song take over JFK-SDQ and JFK-SJU. Then give BOS-SFO and BOS LAX a shot. As well as JFK-SAN.

12 aircraft are coming online by June.



User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

My guesses (which pretty much line up with Padcrasher):

JFK-SEA...turned over to Song.
JFK-DEN...turned over to Song.
JFK-LAS...2nd mainline flight converted to Song.
JFK-SFO...2 out of 3 flights converted to Song.
JFK-LAX....4 out of 5 flights converted to Song.
JFK-SDQ....turned over to Song.
JFK-SJU....turned over to Song.
JFK-SAN....1x daily
BOS-SFO....1x daily
BOS-LAX....2x daily

This would pretty much eat up most of the 12 new planes. Honestly, I hope some of my guesses are wrong. I think putting Song on some of these routes will drive away what few business travelers DL might have left. Song is NOT business friendly.

Billelliot,

From what I've heard the transcons from Florida are Song's poorest performers. DL has frequently been cutting these routes back (particularly on Tuesdays/Wednesdays).



User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5120 times:

Florida-West Coast would suprise me as being the poorest performers. I look at these loads often and they seem higher than others. The worst performer IMO would be JFK-NAS. Best performer might be MCO-SJU.

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

From what I've heard the transcons from Florida are Song's poorest performers. DL has frequently been cutting these routes back (particularly on Tuesdays/Wednesdays).

Not exactly. Depending on which exact flights your talking about would depend if its doing well or not. For instance, your TPA-LAX flight leaving at 7am may only carry 60 people, which isn't a moneymaker, but the 6pm flight will depart with 170. Not saying that is the statistics, but from most Song numbers that I watch on a daily basis, thats normally how it happens. Most Song customers tend to prefer daytime departures as compared to early morning or late night flights, but then again, who doesn't prefer daytime to night? I would say that the West Coast-FL flights have a much higher LF.


User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5002 times:

Song is NOT business friendly.

That's an untrue statement. Song is very well liked by the business travelers that have tried it and prefer it to any coach mainline product out there. The full fare F class seat has gone the way of the dinosaur and DL realizes this as more and more business travelers shop for price over product. You think Jetblue doesn't get any business traffic? Those that haven't tried it are the ones that seem to criticize it and that tune changes after they do try it.
I recently went around to various airports in Europe and was overwhelmed with the questions I received from DL contracted employees who were curious about Song as it was so well raved by the passengers who connect on Song out of JFK. And these were by the employees that work DL's BizElite counters on a day to day basis.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

so how is JFK-NAS doing for song?

User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 492 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

Why would DL expand Song? They just announced across the board Value Pricing for mainline, so what does Song add to the equation? Not a whole lot.

User currently offlineBkonner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4885 times:

DL use to fly from BOS to LAX and BOS to LAS. They pulled out several years ago. I would not expect Song to enter the BOS-LAX or BOS-SFO market. But I would expect Song would want to move its aircraft during the summer from the Northeast to Florida (BOS and NYC) to other destinations. TWA tried to do this in the early 90's but without a lot of success (moving aircraft from east-west service during the summer to northeast-south in the winter). Could Song's 757 cross the Atlantic?

bkonner


User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Why would DL expand Song? They just announced across the board Value Pricing for mainline, so what does Song add to the equation? Not a whole lot.

Exactly .. and brand wise, Delta has a lot more resonance with people then Song. What I dont understand is .. if they had enough money to create and brand Song and implement all this IFE, why couldnt they just do that to Delta mainline and adjust the inflight service accordingly? Retofit 757s or 737s or whatever, make them all one class, put in the IFE, and put those a/c on routes competitive with JetBlue/AirTran, etc. and advertise "tv" to Florida?


User currently offlineAirgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Awesome. I wish song would head down to JAX  Sad

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

DeltaMIA,

You're missing the point. Sure Song's coach is far better than DL mainline (which is a big problem to start with), but one of the important things to business travelers is upgrades to First. This perk (along with others) is what used to distinguish DL from other carriers.

As DL abandons this perk, there's nothing to distinguish DL from JetBlue, Airtran or anyone else. DL just becomes a run-of-the-mill carrier that has to compete solely on cost. The problem is that DL will NEVER be able to compete on cost. DL will NEVER have costs as low as JetBlue. Price is no doubt very important, but DL MUST do something to distinguish themselves from the likes of JetBlue, et al.

The reason many business travelers have been driven to JetBlue is because DL lacks a consistent product. If Delta isn't going to offer first consistently, then why not fly a carrier that will at least offer a consistent product (ie JetBlue)? If you're a business traveler who flies to many different destinations, you never know what you are going to get with DL. You might get Song (with no F, but very good coach), you might get crammed into an RJ with no First (and poor service if its ASA), you might get a regular mainline flight (with First, but a poor coach product), you just don't know what DL will offer.

Song is a condemnation of exactly how low DL has sunk. DL has failed so miserably at delivering their own product, they had to copy someone elses.

Why be a loyal customer to Delta if the product Delta is offering is the same as the competitor (in the case of Song vs JetBlue)? And the second question, why be loyal to Delta when Delta can't deliver a consistent product across the market (when its competitors can)?







User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4865 times:

DL needs some Songs in RDU..

They could pick up the RDU-SJU that AA dropped.. using Song 4 times a week.. or even RDU-LAX using Song..

They did something crazier when they opened their first non-hub route out of RDU to MSY.. crazier things could happen! Or not.. Would be nice though..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

FA4B6,

What I dont understand is .. if they had enough money to create and brand Song and implement all this IFE, why couldnt they just do that to Delta mainline and adjust the inflight service accordingly?


First of all, Song was only given $60 million to start up and were on their own from there. In this industry, $60 mil is pocket change and I would say that Song used it very wisely. Especially considering that they had to take planes out of service while putting in the IFE. Now, you ask why couldn't they do that to mainline? Just rip out the F seats and throw in coach? Well, as so many people on here haven't noticed, Song and Delta are built to cater to 2 different type of passengers. Song caters more to leisure passengers, and Delta caters more to business passengers. Oh sure, there are many leisure passengers flying on Delta and some business passengers flying on Song, but for the most part, they cater to different types of folks. So that is why Delta doesn't just create one big same kind airline, but prefers two different airlines for 2 different types of customers.


FlyPNS1,

That has got to be one of the most assinine posts you have ever made on here.

This perk (along with others) is what used to distinguish DL from other carriers.

Other carriers don't have upgrades? I could have sworn that all the major carriers had First Class.


As DL abandons this perk, there's nothing to distinguish DL...

Delta hasn't abandoned the perk, see remark about 2 different kinds of passengers higher up in this post.


DL will NEVER have costs as low as JetBlue.

You are correct there. But what is ironic, is that Jetblue will never have the costs of Jetblue. Let's talk in a decade when planes are needed for maintenance, unions want raises, the mixed fleets(A320/E190) combine costs, and they actually have to pay real money for their planes.


The reason many business travelers have been driven to JetBlue is because DL lacks a consistent product.

I have a list of Platinum, Gold, and Silver Medallions who would care to state otherwise. They are the ones who seem to enjoy the inconsistent product you speak of.


You might get Song (with no F, but very good coach), you might get crammed into an RJ with no First (and poor service if its ASA), you might get a regular mainline flight (with First, but a poor coach product), you just don't know what DL will offer.

I can see that you have probably never bought a ticket on Delta. Maybe NRK can help us out here, as its his forte. When you buy a ticket from Delta, whether over the phone or on delta.com, you are told if a flight is operated by Mainline, Song, or DCI before you ever actually purchase the ticket. Rarely is a route covered only by one kind of service. Most cities may have a mix of RJ's and Mainline, and some have all three. So Delta customers know what they are going to get and can choose. And aviation buffs like us know just by flight numbers what its going to be. If the flight number is in the 2000 range, its Song. If its in the 3-6000 range, its an RJ, and so on.


Song is a condemnation of exactly how low DL has sunk. DL has failed so miserably at delivering their own product, they had to copy someone elses.

And your proof of this is...? Actually, I couldn't even come up with a retort to this, but I would refer you back to a previous remark about a list of certain customers, the ones that continually pay 70% of my salary.


And the second question, why be loyal to Delta when Delta can't deliver a consistent product across the market (when its competitors can)?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and play devil's advocate here and try to see things from your perspective. If I had a choice between having an all coach product, or possibly get lucky and get a plane with FC, I would choose the latter.


Besides, if you got the same thing all the time, wouldn't it get boring after a while?  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33195 posts, RR: 71
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4752 times:

DL needs some Songs in RDU..

No they don't. They don't need to place high density, leisure airplanes out of a low density business market that would do nothing but erode yields not only for other airlines, but for Delta themselves.

They could pick up the RDU-SJU that AA dropped.. using Song 4 times a week..

AA operates a focus city at RDU and a hub at SJU. They couldn't get RDU-SJU to work. How in the world do you expect Delta to make it work with a bigger plane?

or even RDU-LAX using Song..

So that Delta can errode their own yields on RDU-LAX passengers through ATL?





a.
25 DeltaMIA : As DL abandons this perk, there's nothing to distinguish DL from JetBlue, Airtran or anyone else. DL just becomes a run-of-the-mill carrier that has t
26 Panamair : "Song and Delta are built to cater to 2 different type of passengers. Song caters more to leisure passengers, and Delta caters more to business passen
27 GSPSPOT : OttoPylit, I have to say, that in my experiences (and my frequent-flyer partner's experiences), most of FlyPNS1's comments are valid. Lots of customer
28 Post contains links FoxBravo : Well, here's the announcement: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050126/nyw043_1.html Pretty impressive frequency: eventually 7x daily to LAX, 5x daily to S
29 ERJ170 : They don't need to place high density, leisure airplanes out of a low density business market that would do nothing but erode yields not only for othe
30 FlyPNS1 : OttoPylit and DeltaMIA, It's pretty scary that so many DL employees are so out-of-touch with the market. It goes a long way to explain why things have
31 Post contains links ERJ170 : Announced routes include JFK-SJU, LAX, SFO, SEA, and Aruba.. http://www.bizjournals.com/industries/travel/airlines_airports/2005/01/24/atlanta_daily29
32 Sspontak : Last week I flew Delta's mainline JFK-LAX transcon nonstops in first class. The Business Elite config on the return. I can tell you the Flight Attenda
33 ERJ170 : Well, with their new additions (7 to LAX, 5 to SFO, 3 to SEA, 2 to SJU, and a Sat to Aruba).. where are the other 17 flights going to be?
34 MAH4546 : RDU is one of those markets that is actually just as much leisure as it is business traffic. Not originating. Almost all the leisure traffic is outbou
35 ERJ170 : Not originating. Almost all the leisure traffic is outbound. It does not have an even mix. Mark, RDU is and has always been a 50% leisure/50% business
36 Zone1 : The only way I can see the expansion to LAX, SFO, and SEA is if the Delta mainline coach fares stay about the same as the Song fares or else they will
37 MaverickM11 : "Why would they add RDU-LAX on Song, which would kill their own yields on RDU-LAX on mainline?" That throws the entire essence of being of Song into t
38 Padcrasher : A few points. 1) Delta does not get much premium revenue LAX-JFK. AA and UA, to a lesser extent get this business. 2) The mainline fights from JFK-LAX
39 MaverickM11 : "2) The mainline fights from JFK-LAX and SFO should end. They are showing in the schedules now but are zeroed out." I bet we will see this capacity re
40 FlyPNS1 : JFK-DEN appears to be getting axed again (as of May 1)...in addition to the previously discussed cancellation of JFK-SAN (as of Jan 31).
41 MaverickM11 : "JFK-DEN appears to be getting axed again (as of May 1)..." With load factors around 40% I'm not surprised....
42 Panamair : " The mainline fights from JFK-LAX and SFO should end. They are showing in the schedules now but are zeroed out" Are you sure? Some of the duplicate f
43 Alexinwa : So it says 3 daily JFK-SEA by Sept. Does this count the 2 mainline DL filghts or will it all be Song by then?
44 Post contains images Richierich : I'm staying out of this one.....!
45 MAH4546 : Mark, RDU is and has always been a 50% leisure/50% business market.. if you don't believe me.. feel free to contact RDUAA at 919-840-2100. I never arg
46 ERJ170 : There is very little terminating leisure traffic at RDU, that's all I said. RDU is not a dense destination. Ahh.. True.. there is lots of outgoing lei
47 Post contains images OttoPylit : FlyPNS, Your posts make me wonder, just exactly what were we debating in the first place. They go round and round and get nowhere. Having first class
48 MAH4546 : When checking walkup flights to LAX, NYC is over $1000; MIA is over $500; RDU is over $400.. but the yield from RDU is still looks acceptable to me! E
49 ERJ170 : because the RDU-LAX is routed RDU-ATL-LAX and RDU-CVG-LAX.. If they did a direct RDU-LAX, they could charge more.. I believe that is the way most airl
50 MAH4546 : If they did a direct RDU-LAX, they could charge more.. I believe that is the way most airlines would do it.. thereby making yield better.. If Delta di
51 ERJ170 : Sounds good to me.. but no matter what we say or how we think.. a LAX nonstop for RDU just isn't in the cards right now.. alas.. but anyway.. which ro
52 Panamair : "Disregarding those statements, now that its been made official, I can say that I do not agree with the JFK transcons going to Song. Although I see th
53 Deltadude8 : Otto and some others...you all and I have been at this Song battle for a long time...For a long time others (JB fans and SW fans and other people) wer
54 Jrlander : Frankly, I sort of wish Delta would get a bit creative with the business service. I wonder if they could configure a few 737-800's in all business cla
55 Post contains images OttoPylit : Panamair, Whew! Thats good to see. I was worried that they were saying that ALL JFK flights would go Song. I guess I should have paid a little more at
56 Delta4eva : Otto and Deltadude, I agree with you guys 100%. I am proud of Delta and how faithful their employees are, my mother being one of them. Some people wil
57 Padcrasher : With the 12 new aircraft it looks like Song will have about 75% of the capacity Jetblue has counting their new orders coming on line in 05.
58 JetBlueAtJFK : The AUA flights only operate on Saturdays and I took a couple sample fares O/W and they go for $238.60!!! Wow. A bit to much. SFO and LAX normally O/W
59 Jetbluefan1 : Very impressive frequencies, indeed. Seems like DL/Song wants to make these flights successful unlike JFK-LAS which has been sitting at 1x (on Song...
60 ERJ170 : I hate to sound kinda stupid here.. but at some point, is there going to be an equilibruim in the NYC area.. or are the airlines just going to keep ad
61 JetBlueAtJFK : Jetbluefan1, They don't have to respond with fares, Got them beat by alot but frequency wise maybe they will. Maybe AA or UA/TED will take them on als
62 FlyPNS1 : Apparently, someone doesn't read airline financial stats. With the exception of one time costs and charitable contributions to ASA and Comair, Delta l
63 Bkonner : Howdy, I am suprised that Song will fly from BOS to LAS. DL pulled out of this market about a year ago or so. Strange! bkonner
64 Post contains images FA4B6 : Howdy, I am suprised that Song will fly from BOS to LAS. DL pulled out of this market about a year ago or so. Strange! bkonner B6 just announced BOS-L
65 DeltaMIA : Obviously, someone in DL management thinks customers care about having F. Look at the routes where F class is offered compared to the routes where onl
66 Padcrasher : Song has been flying BOS-LAS since OCT 1st 2003. It is JB that is coming in on the route.
67 DeltaMIA : I am suprised that Song will fly from BOS to LAS. DL pulled out of this market about a year ago or so. Strange! B6 just announced BOS-LAS .. so is it
68 Post contains images FA4B6 : DL has flown BOS-LAS with Song now since the start of Song. They have reduced it to 5x a week periodically, but it hasn't gone away and continues to d
69 FlyPNS1 : If that is true please explain how DL can have one $2.1 billion in cash. Trust me DL did not start 2004 with $4.6 billion cash. You are correct DL did
70 Panamair : "All LAX-JFK flights will be Song by 06/18. 7 RT's All SFO-JFK flights will be Song by 07/04. 5 RT's All SEA-JFK flights will be Song by 09/02. 3 RT's
71 OttoPylit : This is gonna be fun. The problem is...you don't know. You only know what management wants you to know. I know you think you are some great insider, b
72 DeltaMIA : Are you sure? Yes I am sure. I forget the day the schedules get completely loaded. These are anticipated start dates as planes still have to be conver
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