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MEX-GRU RG/MX Or AM/MX?  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Over the last year there has been an impressive growth in the Mexican-Brazilian air market. MEX-GRU currently has 14 x week flights:

- 7 x week RG with the B777
The flights is codeshared with MX and operates GRU-MEX daylight and MEX-GRU red-eye;

- 7 x week AM with the B767-300/200
Out- and in-bound flights are red-eye.

RG offers the best product with the B777 (PTV/IFE), while MX offers the best schedule with red-eye flights on both directions.

My question is regarding RG-MX cooperation. I'm not aware of the AM-MX merger, however, AM's flights to GRU are now codeshared with MX as well. Wouldn't this create a conflict with RG? How come MX codeshares flights to GRU with two airlines: RG and AM?

Could we expect the RG-MX cooperation to break down? MX left Star alliance but still has a cooperation with RG.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-25 17:50:39]

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7634 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

I was not aware that AM's flights to GRU (indeed very convenient because of the schedules) were codeshared by MX as well. If this is correct, I agree with Hardi that this might create a conflict of interest.

It would be sad to see the RG-MX codesharing/mileage accrual and redepmtion ageement to terminate.

Hopefully someone working for MX can give us more details in connection with this issue.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineMEXICANA340500 From Mexico, joined Jan 2005, 10 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

We have been told that certain codeshare agreements with Star Alliance carriers will not be renovated when they expire. I don't know what will be Varig's case. Either if they choose to keep the codeshare I really don't care. We have better employee's specials with CINTRA and AeroMexico to GRU. More over, instead of codesharing with RG we should open our own flight to GRU 3 times a week with B767 or B757 via CUN. We should feed a national carrier and partner AM instead of RG. Or codeshare with TAM.

MEXICANA340500




Sergio Mota - Aviation Photography of Mexico
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7634 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Is it possible under the Mexico-Brazil bilateral to have MX start its own flights to GRU? If possible, I wonder if CINTRA would agree since AM and MX would be competing against each other (unless perhaps if they fully codeshare on the route). Besides, at the moment there is only one 763ER and I don't think MX is willing to cease operations to EZE, and routing a 752 through CUN might not be competitive enough.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Any chance of seeing MEX-GIG, possibly via CUN? I think a 752 could do this route profitably. And it could also connect pax from the west coast of the USA to GIG, providing an alternative for GRU and/or RG.

I don't see a problem in that. Provided MX has the aircraft to do so, and connections in MEX go smoothly they could break the monopoly RG holds to/from the west coast.

Possibility:

LAX-MEX/CUN-GIG

SFO-MEX/CUN-GIG

Not necessarily direct operations.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFarmenta From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

I think a LAX/CUN/GIG route would work since RG has LAX/GRU/GIG.

Also, CUN could be a nice alternative for flights into the north-east of Brazil.

For example, I don't know if this would work but a MIA/CUN/Recife would be a nice option since there are no flight that originate from the US/Canada/MEX
to North-east Brazil. I bet this route will make money since most people don't want to travel all the way down to GIG/GRU to flight 3 1/2 hrs north and then flight back 3 1/2 hrs south to get out of Brazil (most of the flight out of Brazil to USA/Canada/Mex) originate in GIG or GRU.

Only my two centavos.

-F


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

Farmenta, tks for your two centavos!  Smile

since there are no flight that originate from the US/Canada/MEX
to North-east Brazil.


TAM currently operates 1 x week MIA-SSA nonstop with the A330, and has plans to open another flight MIA-FOR nonstop in 2005.

We have been told that certain codeshare agreements with Star Alliance carriers will not be renovated when they expire.

So we could expect MX to terminate its codeshare with RG? It will be a difficult situation. Keep in mind that MX-RG codeshare has been very successful as the flights on this route are doing quite well. Although MX pulled out of Star, it still has partnerships with RG, AC, AN, and LH.

More over, instead of codesharing with RG we should open our own flight to GRU 3 times a week with B767 or B757 via CUN. We should feed a national carrier and partner AM instead of RG. Or codeshare with TAM.

I really dont know whether there is market for yet additional flights on MEX/CUN-GRU/GIG. I think the bilateral is working in its limit with 14 flights per week. I dont see the conditions for additional flights.

Just to remind you that MX does not only feed RG, but the RG also feeds MX with pax! MX onward connections from MEX are RG prime distribution center for destinations in the Caribbean and Central America and is one of the main reasons RG now sustains a daily flights B777 to MEX. Just to remind you that RG partner UA terminated most of its flights out of MIA, so RG cannot count on MIA for onward connections to Central America/Caribbean.

Rgs,


[Edited 2005-01-26 11:54:17]

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Mexico dropped the visa requirements for Brazilians. Expect a bit of migration up north.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Mexico dropped the visa requirements for Brazilians

This was a two-way measure, since there is no VISA requirements for Mexicans in Brazil as well. VISA requirements Brazil-Mexico were dropped last year. I dont think this alone would have increased the air traffic. There has been a lot of business traffic between MEX-GRU/GRU-MEX lately. VW alone has two major car plants in both countries. Also, Mexico has been doing major investments in the telecom sector in Brazil.

BTW, Brazilians dont need VISA for Europe as well (including the UK and Switzerland).

Rgs,


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7634 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

The Visa requirement for Mexicans was lifted by the Brazilian government in February 2004. Brazilians have enjoyed Visa-less entry to Mexico much longer.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3009 times:

since there are no flight that originate from the US/Canada/MEX
to North-east Brazil.

TAM currently operates 1 x week MIA-SSA nonstop with the A330, and has plans to open another flight MIA-FOR nonstop in 2005.


But you are still left with two not-so-appealing options: LAX-MIA-REC and LAX-GRU-REC. If someone offered LAX-MEX-REC it would save you tons of time. However, this route would be mostly for U.S. tourists coming over so I'm not quite sure if the demand is there.

But LAX-MEX-GIG should work pretty well.

Cheers,

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

LAX-MEX-GIG should work pretty well

I dont think the Brazilian aviation authorities would give AM or MX rights to transport pax from Brazil to the US. I see this as almost impossible.

From Mexico to Brazil the only route which could still generate some good loads is CUN-GRU, but the charter airlines are doing a good job on this route. CVC, a Brazilian tour agency, has two weekly flights GRU-CUN.

Rgs,
Hardi


User currently offlineSOUTHAMERICA From Colombia, joined Dec 2003, 2497 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

I dont think the Brazilian aviation authorities would give AM or MX rights to transport pax from Brazil to the US.

...and possibilities of RG/JJ getting rights to fly passengers between MEX and LAX at the time of an eventual request are slim to none also. So it's a likely no-no from both sides.




SOUTHAMERICA


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7634 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2973 times:

AM could circumvent this prohibition by scheduling one of its 3 daily MEX-LAX-MEX flights so as to allow a convenient connection with its daily MEX-GRU-MEX service and pricing the flights aggressively.

In this scenario, a Brazilian interested in flying to LAX from GRU would fly first to MEX with AM, would land there, and would then connect to LAX without needing to re-check his bags (is this possible?).



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

AM could circumvent this prohibition by scheduling one of its 3 daily MEX-LAX-MEX flights

Very good idea. CM does the same in Argentina and Brazil, fitting is schedule EZE-PTY and GRU-PTY with onwards flights to the US. of course, CM flights to EZE and GRU are primarily targeted to onward connections to Central American, Caribbean, and Andean destinations.

The LAX-Brazil route is well underserved; with RG operating 4 x week LAX-GRU-GIG with the MD-11.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMarambio From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2004, 1162 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Although MX pulled out of Star, it still has partnerships with RG, AC, AN, and LH.

With Varig, Air Canada and Lufthansa they do....BUT ANSETT AUSTRALIA?! They brankrupted years ago! Big grin

Saludos,
Marambio



Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

Hola, Marambio!

By AN I meant All Nippon Airways from Japan! AN also has a strong codeshare with RG on the route GRU-NRT.

Rgs,



User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7634 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Yeah, and in addition to NH, MX also codeshares with NZ.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2861 times:


As is, MEX is a not an airport to make connections. The facility is not at all adequate to support international connections, maybe when they build the new terminal, but not now. I have transfered there before on flights to South America and unless the flight is a continuation of a flight that originates in the U.S. and ends in South America and for which you don't have to change planes in MEX, then it's okay, but otherwise forget about it.

AM flight 18, (I believe is a good example), I took this flight when it would originate in LAX and head all the way down to GRU with stops in MEX and LIM on a 757.

I wish they would have built the new airport for Mexico City and turned into a great hub, but the plan just didn't materialized, unfortunately.  Sad


 Smile LatinPlane



User currently offlineAM773 From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

LatinPlane:

I totally agree with you about the "convenience" of connecting in Mexico City, but, even if you don't want to, a lot of international flights that arrive to MEX carry passengers that later will take AM or MX flights to any of their national/international final destinations. And indeed, MEX is a BIG HUB and connecting point.

Regards,

AM773


User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2738 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2790 times:

AM773:

I think you mean "Inconvenience"? (with humorous grin on my face  Big grin)

No pun intended. What I mean is that MEX, notwithstanding that it is an airport facility that is already giving its 110% of its best to keep up with the needs of the country's capital is not an adequate airport built for "comfortable" or "smooth" international connections.

While, MEX is a big airport(?), and it is being used by CINTRA's carrier's as a primary connection point, I wouldn't necessarily label it as a BIG HUB, and not to discredit MEX, but when I thing of BIG, I think of: O'hare, Atlanta, Dallas, Inchon, CDG, even SCL (maybe not for its size, but for its connections).

Like I said, MEX is just not built for the role and for good reason, the original land set aside for the airport was drawn back in the 40s?, and being Mexico, who ever thought that the airport would outgrow its role since the dry lake bed was just a dry lake bed back then, and not what grew around it ever since.

As late as the mid 90s, it was still almost impossible to make a connection at MEX. AeroMexico and Mexicana didn't have the necessary systems in place to transfer your luggage from one flight to another. If you went via MEX you had to claim your baggage and go to the terminal ticketing line to check in yourself and your luggage (again) for your connecting flight. If you thought that it was like any other hub and spoke system, you discovered at your final destination that your luggage was lost. Things are better now, but the facility's use is being streched out a tad from its original maximum.

If the Mexican authorities who make the decisions think its okay, well okay, good for them. But if they were to make studies and ask people who make connections at MEX what they feel, they would quickly discover what people REALLY think.

Maybe I'm sounding harsh? I don't know how to be diplomatic with this subject, but like I said, maybe when the new terminal is built and there is a quality facility for comfortable and easy connections, people will easily decide to use MEX as an international connection point and while they're at it, they'll get a good eyes view of the spectacular and breathtaking city; the feeling that you get as you look out your window while descending into MEX.


 Smile LatinPlane


User currently offlineToksans From Japan, joined Dec 2003, 86 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

CINTRA announced last fall that it will merge AM and MX. Does anyone know what is the current status ? It will influence this discussion.


Toksans from Tokyo. Photographing and flying the plane are things to do for my life.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

Toksans:

You touched an interesting and rather confused topic.

I myself never fully understood the situation of AM and MX, which apparently are managed by the same group called CINTRA, right? This gets even more confused on the routes such as GRU, which MX codeshares with both competitors, RG and AM...

I think they tried to merge AM-MX in the year 2000, but the antitrust regulators did not aprove the merger, so now they are trying to merge MX and AM and create a "low cost" airline with Aerocaribe and Aerolitoral, supposedly to increase competition in the domestic market.

And what about alliances? MX was part of Star, will they join Sky or OW, or maybe go back to Star???

Rgs,



User currently offlineToksans From Japan, joined Dec 2003, 86 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

Hardiwv,

Yes, they tried s several times to merge AM/MX in the past. The last fall announcement can be seen;
http://www.cintra.com.mx/cintra_e/espanol/accionist/boletines/bolet25Oct04.htm
MX is no longer the member of Star Alliance. They left two years ago, I think.

Susumu



Toksans from Tokyo. Photographing and flying the plane are things to do for my life.
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