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KQ Under Pressure To End KL Ties To Start MIA  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

Kenya Airways is facing heavey political pressure to end their strong partnership with KLM Royal Dutch in order to start flying to the United States. KLM is not keen on Kenya Airways' beinging its own US services, perfering that KQ feed passengers onto KLM flights through Amsterdam. Kenya Airways plans to launch three weekly flights between Nairobi and Miami in the near future. Article:

http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=11572

And to answer the question "why Miami, not NYC?":

1) They are getting financial help from Miami's aviation authority.
2) Miami is a prime tourist destination for wealthy Africans.
3) Kenya Airways hopes to rake in on getting lucrative Miami-South Africa traffic.
4) There is a small but extremely wealthy African community in Miami.
5) The most important reason of all: cargo.


a.
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRaivavae From France, joined Jul 2001, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5275 times:

KLM is not flying to Miami ! so it should not be this much loss in passengers for them.
There might be something else if they which to leave.


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5264 times:

I actually spoke to a few minsiters on my recent trip to India to enquire whether aviation treaties would make it permisable for Air India to extend the Mumbai-Nairobi route to Miami. One it would give me a direct route to India without connecting in Europe, and secondly (and more importantly) it would be great O&D- between the Indian community in South Florida and East African community the flight would be a goldmine, particularly for cargo. Nobody was interested in my suggestions.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5246 times:

I have a few questions, just to understand the story better.

What are the deficiencies at Jomo Kenyatta Airport that restrict it from "Category One" status? And what is Category One's significance that KQ can operate to Europe, but not the United States, from Kenyatta without it? Also, the first paragraph makes it sound like the Kenyan government is the one that wants KQ to cut ties to KLM, before they will grant KQ authority to fly to the US.

Does the gov't want KQ to do this because of the opposition from KLM that you mentioned? The article doesn't mention opposition from KLM. I'm not doubting that they oppose said service, just am curious as to your source. Hope I didn't misread the article. Does KQ's agreement with KLM preclude KQ's starting direct service to the US?

What is the difference between the Miami Civil Aviation Authority and the Miami-Dade Aviation department? I had always understood that MIA was run by the city-county gov't, which would mean the latter runs the airport. So what is the Miami Civil Aviation Authority, and where are they getting funding to back Kenya Airways' getting more aircraft for European routes?

If KLM *is* trying to block Kenya Airways from running its own service to the USA, that is, to say the least, not the kind of enlightened attitude towards the developing world, that I have read is supposedly the norm among European nations. Sounds more like the greed often associated with the United States.

Jim


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5216 times:

Slightly off topic, but I'm still somewhat surprised that no one French flies MIA-DKR as well


not the kind of enlightened attitude towards the developing world, that I have read is supposedly the norm among European nations. Sounds more like the greed often associated with the United States.

...imagine that  Insane


User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1343 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

I think KLM needs to back off this one and let Kenya Airways, this is a great opportunity for Kenya to enter the U.S. market. I know plenty of South Africans here in Miami that would definetly fly this route! Not to mention the many Indians and Asians that live in the South Florida area.


Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5173 times:
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MIASkies,
Oh great, condemn KQ to the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans! Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!

KQ needs to have a better business plan than to take up the slack of SA's former abandoned routes. Pandering to the small yet vocal South African minority who haven't recoverd from their own national carrier's choice of routes is not a recipe for success.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6441 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

If KLM is trying to block Kenya Airways from flying to MIA, What has this got to do do with the Netherlands government? KLM is a private company and does not have to check with the Netherlands government or any government including the French about its business plan.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Just one important question:

How many African airlines fly to MIA?

I simply cannot see the market for direct flights Africa-MIA.

MIA is heavily focused on the Latin American market. Interesting enough, many South African pax fly to MIA with SA on the route JNB-GRU and connect onwards to MIA with partner airline RG.

I also dont think KQ would jeopardize its vital alliance with KLM for a three weekly service to MIA. Its AMS gateway is much more important.

KQ achieved much of what it is today because of KL.

Rgs,


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans!

...thus proving that you're quite unfamiliar with the MFW-Africa market



Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!

Tell BA that... since they're getting such "crappy yields" from Iran to Los Angeles.


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

"2) Miami is a prime tourist destination for wealthy Africans."

Sounds interesting, where can I get some more information on that topic, since it does seem a bit far fetched. I would imagine that there are places nicer and closer than MIA for wealthy Africans to travel, especailly with fewer immigration troubles.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4748 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

KLM doesnt own more than 50% of KQ so its no position to tell KQ and the NBO govt what it can and cant do. Since KL in anycase doesnt fly to MIA, they have no reason to block KQs entry into that market segment.

Yes KQ is where it is today in large due to KLM and the benefits it has gained from KLs AMS hub but KLM shouldnt try and use that to its advantage by bullying KQ by telling them what they can and cant do as thats total exploitation and uncalled for intimidation!!!

KQ from MIA can mint $$$ as it can get feed from NWA-DL and CO from EWR-IAH-ATL-DTW-MSP etc for its NBO and via NBO Africa bound flights.


User currently offlineGlobeTrekker From Netherlands, joined Dec 2003, 851 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5114 times:

A question:

Didn't I hear from someone on this forum that KQ was scheduled to be a SkyTeam associate member?

Any news on that?



The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5091 times:

. I would imagine that there are places nicer and closer than MIA for wealthy Africans to travel

I will second that a small but SIGNIFICANT number of wealthy Africans shack up in MIA, with more visiting on vacation/seasonal-excursion...


especailly with fewer immigration troubles.

...you are however correct in this sense. SA added a CPT/JNB-FLL segment to make up for the loss of their Miami operations once Atlanta became their southern USA gateway. That operation was pulled after 9/11 immigration stipulations made it a mandatory deplaning station for all pax.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5074 times:

Just to add on my reply 8: almost every airline is pulling out of or reducing its flights to MIA, and KQ wants to start direct flights NBO-MIA? If KQ breaks its partnerships with KL and carries out this "crazy" ideas it wont last longer...

Btw, no answer to my question 1: how many African airlines serve MIA? This could indicate quite something....

Rgs,


User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5056 times:
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ConcordeBoy,
80% of my daily work is dealing with the Africa market (tours, VFR demand and missionary). I am very familiar with this destination. My point was that South African and Asian expats do not generally produce high yield traffic to Africa. They are strictly back of the bus and, on occasion, heavily discounted Business Class. The high yield traffic to Africa is mostly corporate, government and NGOs.

Your example of BA and Iranians flying to LAX is tangential to my point. BA has a very broad mix of corporate and leisure travel, comprised only in part by ethnic/VFR traffic. My remarks were based more along the lines of TG who in the USA have abandoned all sales channels except the LAX ethnic market, and as a result, have had to reduce their frequency due to massive losses.

KQ has received huge benefits from KLM's rather aggressive yield management system. As a result, KQ enjoys a very wide mix of traffic not only on the LHR/AMS routes, but throughout their entire route network. They are not reliant on any greater Kenyan/East African diaspora for the bulk of their traffic. Therefore, I can't see why they would want to chase after what is clearly an ethnic demand for Florida. It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Edited 2005-01-25 23:39:18]


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1343 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Hardiwv: Almost every airline is either pulling or reducing MIA flights? what planet do you live in?

Only airline that pulled was KLM due to low yields, UA pulled pretty much because of their situation, IB pulled its Mini Hub but still continues to fly MIA-MAD (which is one of the best if not best selling North American Route for IB).

So KLM left and Martinair took over adding even more flights and not to mention the new 738 MIA-SJO Martinair service. AF increased to double daily in the Winter to MIA with 744 and A343 flight..as well as their A320 AF service to PAP and Pointe a Pitre, AZ again upgraded their service to 772ER, Eurofly added FPO-MIA-MXP service with A332, BA flies up to 3 daily 744's to MIA from LHR on select days, LH flies daily 744 from Frankfurt and 3 x weekly A343's from MUC...etc etc etc not to mention the multitude of Latin American Carriers and of course AA.

Back to the topic...if this flight does take off, I think KENYA will see great success!



Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 21 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

MIASkies,
Oh great, condemn KQ to the crappy yields produced by expat Asians and South Africans! Airlines that cater to the ethnic markets are either a) heavily government subsidized, b) losing a great deal of money, c) both!


South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. They are extremely wealthy, fly premium classes often, and aren't hesitant to buy a last minute fare for a last minute emergency. Drive through some South Florida neighbourhoods with large South African communities, like Coral Gables, and see why this is a lucrative market.

Again, Miami's African community is small in numbers. Nothing compared to Washington D.C., for example. Though they are extremely wealthy. This isn't your normal low-yielding VFR.

Typicallly, VFR does produce low-yields. Though not always. Colombian and Haitian VFR traffic, more example, are huge moneymakers.

Air France seems to be the airline of choice for most Africans flying between Miami and France, given their extensive African network and the fact that Dakar is probably the most traveled to destination, outside of South Africa.

almost every airline is pulling out of or reducing its flights to MIA,

What are you talking about? We have lost three airlines (ATA, KLM, and DCA, the latter due to bankruptcy) and one non-stop destination (MDW) in the past year or so. We have added Finnair, Cape Air, Santa Barbara, and Aviacsa and eleven non-stop destinations (LIR, SKB, MAN, UVF, BDA, APF, GNV, MTY, RIC, MVD, MUC). Air France, Alitalia, AeroMexico, LAN, Aeropostal, American Airlines, Delta, Lufthansa, and British Airways are among those have increased service/capacity to MIA this winter. Some airlines have reduced service, the most notable being United and Iberia. Most haven't.



a.
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

"South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. "

Well, I would doubt that they would want to fly via NBO though, same goes for people from West Africa, don't you think?



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4940 times:

To answer one of the questions above, Nairobi does not have Cat 1 status as the airport is configured in such way that arriving and departing pax are not separated enough to meet US requirements. The same issue existed at Addis Ababa (ADD), but to get around this, Bole airport had arriving pax deplane through stairs with the jetbridge disconnected, and then connect the jetbridge to board departing pax. With the new terminal however, the jetbridges are designed so that they are connected to two different floors of the terminal, the second floor being the arrivals and the third one being departures. I am sure there are other things as well, but this particular point was mentioned in an article a few months back about NBO.

As for KQ serving MIA, I have always been puzzled as to why MIA would be selected by KQ of all other higher yield cities such as New York and Chicago that could cater for onwards traffic. Heck, even Detroit comes to mind, given the fact that KQ and NW are partners by proxy. And then comes the "opposition" by KL for KQ to start services to North America. Where did this come from? Did I skip such paragraph in the article? At any rate, I would not be surprised if this is the case since KQ ended up chopping off all of its European destinations except for LHR and AMS once KL got in the picture. I guess like any other airline, if they take stake in an airline or partner with them, they do so because of specific gains that they would get. They probably get more out of KQ by using it as a feeder, as opposed to the gains related to profits at KQ.

Finally, "many South Africans and Indians will use the route"?!?! Please look up a map and check the relations between South Africa and MIA. If one is to take this route, I can tell you that this person cannot be considered a high-price paying passenger. I have seen Indian pax connecting from god knows where to an ET flight at EWR seated in Economy for 17 hours to get to ADD, layover in ADD for some 5 hours and hop on a flight to Delhi. Now if these people were paying high price, I can guarantee you that they would not go through two other continents to get to their final destination (ET makes a stop at FCO en route). I have also seen LOS bound pax who go to ADD from IAD first, connecting to LOS (go east then west).


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

"South Africans in Miami don't produce weak yields. "

Well, I would doubt that they would want to fly via NBO though, same goes for people from West Africa, don't you think?


Why not?

More hassle free than flying through Atlanta or New York City (no stops in the Cape Verde Islands or Dakar; and no having to get your luggage at ATL or JFK, go through customs, and then get back to the gate to connect).

It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris.

The timing is a lot better than flying through Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires, which, while flying through GRU is a very popular option, requires a very long layover.



a.
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

"It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris."

JNB-NBO-MIA : 9751 miles

JNB-LHR-MIA: 10046 miles

JNB-CDG-MIA: 9999 miles

CPT-NBO-MIA: 10489 miles

CPT-LHR-MIA: 10419 miles

CPT-CDG-MIA: 10385 miles

I guess one can debate your statement.



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32602 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

"It is a lot less out of the way than flying through London or Paris."

JNB-NBO-MIA : 9751 miles

JNB-LHR-MIA: 10046 miles

JNB-CDG-MIA: 9999 miles

I guess one can debate your statement.


It is not about the mileage. Think in terms of flight time.

Miami-Paris is an almost nine hour flight. Paris-Jo'Burg is about an 11 hour flight.

Miami-Nairboi would probably be about a 13 hour flight, and going down to Jo'Burg is about four hours. That sure beats two long-haul flights. And that doesn't even factor in layovers, which are going to be a lot longer in Paris, where you'll arrive jetlagged after an overnight from Miami, and then have to wait until late at night for the redeye to South Africa.

[Edited 2005-01-26 01:33:04]


a.
User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2964 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Well since NBO-MIA is almost 8000 miles plus headwinds (all the way), I am doubting that that flight will be all that short, to be honest.
And the 2500 miles from CPT to NBO are just a tad less then LAX to BOS, which you wouls surely also qualify as a long-haul.
 Smile



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 4858 times:
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MAH4546,
Even if I accept your argument that South Africans living in Florida do generate high yield fares, their numbers are far too few to affect the yield mix when you consider the size of aircraft and frequency of service necessary to make the route profitable.

One thing that has been lost in this entire arguement is a key quotation: "The development is expected to cause friction between the Kenya Airways management and the Government which is keen on the opening of the Nairobi-Miami route."

Ah! There you have it! The Government is pushing this route, not the airline. We're talking about one of the most corrupt governments in the world. (Reference BBC report just today regarding the failure of Kenya's president to affect any meaningful reform on corruption). It is however very reassuring that the airline management knows better and does not wish to pursue Miami. Kudos to KQ management!!! Let's just hope they can continue to operate with minimal government intereference.




It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
25 MAH4546 : their numbers are far too few to affect the yield mix when you consider the size of aircraft and frequency of service necessary to make the route prof
26 PA110 : I still say that KQ has absolutely nothing to gain by opening up direct flights to the USA. They are currently a very well run, efficient and profitab
27 MAH4546 : I agree that there is a very limited market between the US and Africa right now, but I think in the next ten-fifteen years this is a market that is re
28 Flymia : Ushermittwoch: Again it is the connection times in CDG not the miles or hours in air. You will spend almost two days flying to MIA-CDG-JNB
29 Post contains images Hardiwv : The timing is a lot better than flying through Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires, which, while flying through GRU is a very popular option, requires a very lo
30 Ushermittwoch : Well if you work with today's figures, then yes, the wait on the return leg is pretty long, but keep in mind that there is only ONE daily non-stop fli
31 MAH4546 : but keep in mind that there is only ONE daily non-stop flight at the moment from JNB to NBO. KQ operates 12 weekly non-stops, SAA operates seven, and
32 Post contains images Ushermittwoch : Maybe I should have stated that there is ONE flight that is operated every day of the week at the same time, the kind of thing one would need to compe
33 Hardiwv : Despite the long layover, Varig/SAA is definitley one of the most popular travel options currently between Miami and South Africa. Maybe SA and RG sho
34 Keesje : IMO an airline that is doing well because of a partnership should take care not harm that partner, IMO politicians should understand that. I think goo
35 MAH4546 : I think good business traffic needs at least 5 frequencies a week. 3 is just not enough. Not in this market. Individuals traveling for business betwee
36 AF022 : airlines are DESPERATE for more landing rights at Luanda, but the angolans won't let anyone except SA have more than 1 frequency per week. the yields
37 Hardiwv : airlines are DESPERATE for more landing rights at Luanda Your language seems a bit exaggerated... Although the situation in Angola has improved consid
38 MAH4546 : The only airlines flying from Europe to LAD are TP, BA and TAAG. Air France, Aeroflot, and SN Brussels all fly to LAD as well. the yields are strong e
39 AF022 : it is safe to say that if BA or AF could operate 3x/week they would.
40 MAH4546 : it is safe to say that if BA or AF could operate 3x/week they would. I bet you they probably would. But it is also safe to say that BA and AF have no
41 Ushermittwoch : I am acutally quite sure that AF would like a daily frequency to LAD in resepct to their Petroleum Club program. Especially with their new A319 longha
42 Lhstr : "KLM is a private company and does not have to check with the Netherland"s government or any government including the French about its business plan."
43 AirGabon : Now French Government has less than 25% of the AF stock.
44 Post contains links ETStar : This news article makes the severing of ties with KLM more public, which I find quite interesting. Would KQ give up the luxury of being or getting int
45 PA110 : I think this reporter may be blowing smoke... The Miami airports’ courtship with KQ, however, comes at a price. It is understood that Southwell and
46 Frostbite : Intriguing topic. I agree with MAH, great expansion in the US-Africa market seems likely in the coming years, I'm very interested to see how it develo
47 Post contains links and images ETStar : Kenya Airways has apparently declined the offer to serve MIA citing nonexistant commercial justification. http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?a
48 MIASkies : I guess KLM beat them hard enough to the point where Kenya yelled "Mercy!!!!"... 3x weekly service to MIA did sound like alot! 1x weekly to start I th
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