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It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA  
User currently offlineJetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8840 times:

http://www.btnmag.com/businesstravelnews/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000777295

7x to LAX, 5x to SFO, 3x to SEA. Other sources claim SJU and Aruba are also two other destinations that'll be served.

Didn't see anything announced as far as fares, whether or not mainline will be completely replaced with Song service, etc. Will let you know when I find out.

JetBluefan1


Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8799 times:

Extensive discussions about this morning's announcement here:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1920988/

Delta mainline will remain on LAX/SFO-JFK. They will no longer be on JFK-SJU/AUA/SEA, which will go to Song. Delta is also ending JFK-SAN at the end of the month and JFK-DEN in April.



a.
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8758 times:

Can't wait for Song to announce their own route for once. Fly another B6 route why don't they. They need to get there own route structure maybe other cities but don't have all JFK-Every B6 destination. It is getting old and stupid. 3X Seattle? Will that work?

jetBlueAtJFK



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineJetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8717 times:

MAH, thanks for pointing out the discussion. Thought it was somewhere but couldn't seem to find it within all this excitement.

Please ignore this thread and go to the link that MAH4546 has selflessly posted.

JetBluefan1



Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlineN317AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8704 times:

Sweet. Finally something different in SEA!!!

User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8679 times:

The AUA flights only operate on Saturdays and I took a couple sample fares O/W and they go for $238.60!!! Wow. A bit to much.

SFO and LAX normally O/W goes for $144!!Alot too

I guess SOng charges more to go into bigger cities b/c with those fares they are flying HIGH. No to brag about B6 but they have much lower O/W fares then that. Song doesn't win that one.

( I checked about 5 flights all different dates and times)

Check those high prices out yourself

jetBlueAtJFK



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineAirlinerfreak From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8624 times:

Yay! A bigger presence for Song at LAX. I have got a question though. Do you think that Song will survive on this route? With all the competition and all the empty seats there already are, what makes them think that they will survive on this route? Also isn't it a bit hefty to go 7x's a day? Just asking....

User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

It was just mentioned that fares on Song are more than JetBlue. If one were to check fares from May on when song enters the JFK/LA market, the lowest fare on both B6 and DL are 144 O/W. I am quite sure that by the time Song does enter the market, fares will drop.
Sarcasm does not belong in these forums. As does information that is not true. Let's check our facts before we post stuff that is not true.
Any of you can check B6 or DL for any date after May 1 and you will see in many instances B6 is the more expensive one..............that's okay too, especially if B6 has already sold a lot of seats.............whether Song will make it only time will tell.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8554 times:

Alb222-

Your problem is that you don't drink the blue Kool-Aid. You see, if Song is charging more than jetBlue on a certain route on a certain day, it's because Song is "too expensive" or trying to gouge the customer. Conversely, if Song is charging less than jetBlue on a certain route on a certain day, it's because they can't fill the planes and no one wants to fly Song and jetBlue is able to charge more because it's better.

And if you don't drink the blue Kool-Aid, you'd know that Delta had been flying from JFK to LAX, SFO, SEA, SLC, PHX, FLL, MCO, TPA, and PBI before jetBlue existed. But hey, you wouldn't want facts to get in the way.


User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8545 times:

When I say I checked dates...well I did buddy. Plug in may 1st you get 1 95 and 3 124's. That's less than 144, then plug in may 2nd you get a ton of 124's then plug in May 3rd and on you get N/S O/W fares of 95's. SO don't tell me to check when I did and I am right. Nice try though.

JFK-SF area on May 1st I get an 85 and 144's but flights are missing so the bucket system is in there and then on may 2nd I get 85's, 95's, 124's, and then May 3rd on N/S O/W are 85!

JFK-SEA on may 1st and 2nd are 124 and then May 3rd on is 85!

I think I checked my facts, got them right and when I say I checked, chances are I did. So there are the facts Alb222.

jetBlueAtJFK



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineCMK10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8508 times:

How many DL Mainline flights will remain on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes and what aircraft will they use?


"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineJfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3475 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8489 times:

Is DL ending JFK-DEN? When was that done?

User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8484 times:

According to the site it should be about 4 and they have 757's and 763's operating them.

jetBlueAtJFK



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

The problem is everybody knows everything. In 35 years in the aviation business (and no, not with Delta) things have gone through a big change. LCC's have the advantage of being non-union with lower costs. Legacy carriers will never be able to match the LCC's.
Fares go up and down. I checked every date from May to Sept on our computer and found that on 92.6% of the dates B6 and DL offer the same fare. A 10 or 20 fare difference will not alter your airline of choice. Other things will..................where will your DL miles take you as compared to B6? I'll spend the extra bucks to earn a free Europe ticket.
And Scott B, your analogy is totally false. For each time you find DL more expensive, I'll find a time when B6, WN or others are more expensive. Sadly, legacy carriers costs are way too high. Fuel is way too high. DL goes with full planes as does B6.........................it has nothing to do with what is offered. People will swear by B6 others will swear by DL. B6 has a much lower cost structure.......lower wages, lower aircraft maintence as their aircraft are new. That is the bottom line. So say what you will, the truth is until we have less capacity and fair fares, this industry is in turmoil.
So Scoot, you drink your blue Koolaid and Jetblueat JFK look up the history of Peoplexpress, NY Air, PSA to name a few. They were winners too. I'll check back with you in 10 years........let's see where we are at.


User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8426 times:
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THANK YOU ALB222!!!

What most folks don't stop to consider is that perception generally drives reality. The general public, in perceiving LCC's to always be cheaper, generally rush out to book the LCC first and in doing so sell out their lowest inventories. Then Johnny-come-lately comes along and finds out that "gasp" the Legacy carrier is cheaper than the LCC on a particular given date. That is only because everyone rushed to book the LCC first. I see this all the time out of OAK with WN and B6. Both have the reputation of being the absolute cheapest in the market. The fact is that most legacy carriers match prices with LCC's on directly competing routes. The public's perception of LCC's always being the cheapest drives the initial bookings to the LCC's first. I find that I can book any of the legacy carriers at or below the the cheapest available (not advertised) LCC price, simply because the great unwashed masses have already filled up the lowest LCC buckets.

[Edited 2005-01-27 02:29:49]


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8401 times:

DL will end JFK-DEN in April.

JFK-LAX will operate 5 Song; 1 767-300; 1 767-300ER and 1 757

JFK-SFO will operate 3 Song; 1 757 and 1 737-800

JFK-SEA will operate 1 Song and 2 737-800

All transcon connecting to/from JFK International traffic will be done with mainline equipment with LAX maintaining Business Elite service.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8370 times:

Clearly my attempt at mocking those who do drink the blue Kool-Aid failed.

I don't think we're going to know exactly what Delta's doing with the routes from JFK to LAX, SFO, and SEA until all the new schedules get loaded; after all, the announced plan is not for one Song 757 to SEA, but three.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8324 times:

I can name numberous routes Delta flew long before Jetblue was in the markets....yet Song is the copy cat?....LOL.

NYC-FLL/PBI/TPA/MCO/SYR/ROC/BTV/LAX/SFO/DEN/SLC/SEA/NAS

BOS-LAS/TPA/MCO/RSW/FLL/PBI


What jokers we have on these boards!...lol

Yes Delta is the copy cat..LOL


User currently offlineJetbluefan1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2982 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8225 times:

I can name numberous routes Delta flew long before Jetblue was in the markets....yet Song is the copy cat?....LOL.

NYC-FLL/PBI/TPA/MCO/SYR/ROC/BTV/LAX/SFO/DEN/SLC/SEA/NAS


Um...wasn't JFK-SEA just added (I think for the second time...) this past May? And isn't JFK-DEN, which was also just added this May, being dropped?

And where are SYR, ROC, BTV-NYC (LGA) today?

The poster was saying that Song is a copycat. He was right. PTV's, leather seats, similar route networks...the list goes on.

JetBluefan1






Most people on a.net hate JetBlue. Get used to it.
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8197 times:

No JB

DL has been flying JFK-SEA for over a decade. Same with DEN with a few gaps. The fact of the matter is JB has moved into DL markets. DL is protecting market share.
As for leather seats? Southwest. Quick turn times? Southwest. Few aircraft types? Southwest. Low pay? Southwest(at first)

The fact of the matter is all features and benefits are out in the industry for all to copy. A ever evolving circle of life. Get over yourself.


User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8169 times:

I bet UA and AA must be happy about Song on the transcons because now they may be able to get more higher paying premium passengers who won't fly for business on Song.

AA787



ET In NYC
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8149 times:

AA had the only real business travelers left. UA a distant 2nd. The fact of the matter is the coach product of Song is better. So it's losing situation for AA/UA which had not matched JB prices to LGB. Song will match JB. So this brings the lower fares to LAX. AA is still operating the same capacity before JB came along and before the bottom dropped out of JFK-LAX yields. I'd look for AA to replace some widebodies with narrowbody aircraft.

User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8133 times:

Alb222,
Got time on your hands there. Trying to prove delta is the best. Well if you check every day tell me why you still claim delta is so much better than B6 and B6's fares are so high when most of the time they are not. Well after your little "check you facts" thing when you were wrong, what did you get all mad and be like im going to check every day of fares. Wow somebody needs to get out a little more. DL's fares are not lower overall than B6's fares. Tell me why I will find 85 O/W on a B6 flight alot of the times but alot of the times I will find alot of 144's on DL. Yes B6 does sometimes have the 144 fares, but they do go lower were you are claiming that since B6 goes up to there price they match. They go up to!! They go lower to. I do not remember saying that DL copys B6 neither did anyone else. SONG copied B6. The IFE the seats the fares the routes, yes that is copying. And you wonder were ROC, BUF, SYR, BTV to LGA are today. No where because DL's fares weren't as low. DL fares do go low but not all the time and B6 fares go high but not all the time, so if DL's lowest fare is one of B6's highest fare, you have to think. So now you don't have to go lie and say I've searched everyday and I think DL is still lower, NO. That is were you go WAY WRONG. You act like DL is now some out of the normal LCC that everyone wants to be like. Well when another carrier comes along and has a good idea then DL will make a twin of it and then make it their own and then they will get people out there saying oh well it is DL's so yea. And someone said I will spend the extra to get miles...well I hope you like spending because if you got for DL all the time, that isn't great money wise. And everyone says oh well Song is with DL and I have miles so I will got he little extra, LITTLE??? That makes me laugh so much to see people think DL is on the same page because they lowered their fares! Why does DL need to lower fares so much if they already have an LCC. Then probably some of those routes that were DL's but failed weren't paying off. So once again check you facts over there.



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8050 times:

You know Mr. Jetblue fan, for the record I have not flown Song or B6. You do not understand, or probably care to understand what I said. Fares are based on both competition and how much money do we need to make a flight profitsable. B6 pay for a 320 Captain after 10 years service 126 per hour. 1st year pay is 110. A legacy carrier for a 737NG, in the case of AA or DL the 800 which is comparable to the 320 pays a 10 year Captain +/-200 per hour flown. It is the cost structure that is creating the discrepancy. B6 currently flies 1 type aircraft. The other legacies fly many types. Costs to maintain 1 type are far less than maintaining many types. It all about costs. How much traffic is O and D on B6, how much is connecting? Compare that to DL on similar routes.
Most of what you said is garbage as I never said anything about who started what first. DL is protecting its turf.................did they copy B6, sure, but look at the real world...........business' copy competitive ideas all of the time. DL/AA and the other legacies offer me a lot more choices. I'll take an upgrade anytime. I'll take my miles and do whatever. B6 is not the panecea you make it out to be. By the way, what happened in Atlanta? Did the T.V. not work? And DL never flew LGA to BUF, ROC, SYR...........Business Express did as well as Comair. Burlington the same thing.
We are entitled to our opinions..................do not put stuff in your statement that I never said but you think I said. Boy, thank goodness I have been there and done that. When you have flown 4,123,000 commercial miles and who knows how many military miles, come back and talk to me!!


User currently offlineLaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4017 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
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Thanks for the information. I had started a thread on Sunday about this as I remember there had been talk abou this sometime ago. I do think that 7 roundtrips a day is a bit much considering all the other service out there at this point and time.

25 Padcrasher : Yes I was adding up the capacity. Song will actually have more coach seats in the market than American. I count 121 seats x 11 flights vs 7 flights x
26 Ckfred : Padcrasher: I doubt that AA will pull the 767s off JFK-LAX. A friend who is a pilot with AA flies ORD-LAX and JFK-LAX a lot. Those are among the few r
27 AlitaliaMD11 : Song already flies to SJU from JFK. I am so happy about the JFK-LAX! I usually fly B6 to LGB since I am a strong B6 supporter, but I really enjoy flyi
28 Richierich : Alb222 asks:By the way, what happened in Atlanta? Good question - I was going to ask that myself. Delta lost $2.2B last quarter.. I think they are the
29 RayChuang : I'm not sure if Song flying between JFK and LAX/SFO is a good idea. These two routes are primarily aimed at business travellers, hence the reason why
30 MAH4546 : Song already flies to SJU from JFK. With a stop in Orlando. JFK-SJU is currently mainline Delta, but will become Song this May.
31 Alb222 : My whole point that everybody can copy everybody else, but if the costs are not there, you can have 2000 B6 clones who won't make money. DL I feel mad
32 Tango-Bravo : Legacy carriers will never be able to match the LCC's. Actually, they could. Their problem is they won't; at least that is what the legacies have to t
33 Post contains images OttoPylit : Richie, Here we go again. Didn't learn your lesson last time, did ya? As for JetBlue, I think pulling out of Atlanta was a good call.. but it wasn't D
34 DeltaMIA : Song basically matches JetBlue's route map city for city Basically? What exactly does basically mean? Only at JFK does Song serve similar markets. Jet
35 Jetbluefan1 : Ottopylit, Even though this is a Song thread, I feel that I have to argue this ATL point with a mix for facts and opinions. However, I must first stat
36 Richierich : Oh boy, here's my buddy OP going at it again! Well, I respect the fact that you have your own opinion and that is OK. I often disagree with many of fr
37 ScottB : RichieRich says, "As I said in another thread a few weeks ago, I have never ever seen such a blatent copy in the corporate world as I have with Song a
38 JetBlueAtJFK : Alb222, what does saying "When you have flown 4,123,000 commercial miles and who knows how many military miles, come back and talk to me!!" have to do
39 Richierich : What exactly does Song copy from jetBlue? Are you kidding me? Clearly you are not seeing the bigger picture. I am talking about THE BRAND and there is
40 SongStar : NAS.....hmmmm let's see...jetBlue would be the copycat here ....Song was to announced service from jfk-nas at 5am that morning...jetBlue caught wind o
41 Alb222 : First Song Star is correct. We will never agree and that is okay, for thank goodness we have that choice. And Jetbluefan, in my 4+ million miles of fl
42 Deltadude8 : Well if were talking about copy cats...then Let's say Jet Blue is a copy cat of every airline ever created...cause its an airline...YAHOOO... Rich..I
43 ScottB : RichieRich- No, I do see the big picture, and you're missing out on a lot of it. Song's marketing isn't designed to be edgy -- it's designed to appeal
44 Post contains images OttoPylit : Jetbluefan, Thank you. You have just stated what I have been saying all along that all JB cheerleaders have and will continue to say about JB leaving
45 N1120a : >LCC's have the advantage of being non-union with lower costs.< Funny, considering how WN is the most heavily unionized airline in the US. Just becaus
46 Alb222 : And where do we hear that WN is the most heavily unionized airine in the U.S.?
47 DeltaMIA : we have gotten so many complaints from India that they are about to get their contract pulled because no one can understand and they can't do their jo
48 FlyPNS1 : There is no proof that Song (or Delta Express) is profitable. Expansion doesn't imply profitability. Most carriers are growing and increasing capacity
49 QuestAir : JFK-SFO might be competing soon with Virgin America. On a separate note, does anyone know why Selvaggio left Song for Virgin America?
50 Goingboeing : I wonder why, with the announcement of simplifares, Delta hasn't pulled the plug on Song.
51 Aeroman62 : And if HP couldn't make money flying SFO/JFK, with their lower costs than DL, then how is anyone going to make money when DL floods the market with th
52 Post contains images Richierich : I have a few comments to make on statements made by Alb222 and OttoPyllt: Had it not been for Song though, Delta may have lost a lot more. Just take i
53 Padcrasher : JB made a -4.1% margin with their 1x tax break on some old expired tickets and fuel hedging,so of course Song didn't make money either. But the purpos
54 Ord : "On a separate note, does anyone know why Selvaggio left Song for Virgin America?" Selvaggio simply retired and did not go to Virgin America (as far a
55 FlyPNS1 : Delta's pilots are the highest paid in the industry, God bless them, so therefore there is no way to consider Song low-cost. This is no longer true. D
56 Jetbluefan1 : 4. But JetBlue is the most practical airline that you'll find - if a flight isn't performing up to par with the rest of the network, you pull it. Plai
57 OttoPylit : DeltaMIA, Hey, I am just going on what I was told my Rob Maruster, VP ATL Worldport. I don't think so much it was the Res office, but more or less the
58 Richierich : So if Song made money before, it will certainly make MORE money now. That's a big IF, Otto. I will say good luck to your pilot roommate and wish him/h
59 DeltaMIA : I can only speculate but I think you know my guess! I could give you 100 guesses and I wouldn't think you would land it. I only wish him success in h
60 Deltadude8 : Hey Rich and others...No one knows whether Song is making money or not so therefore if you post whether they are or are not and do not have proof..THE
61 Richierich : The truth is that Song's profit/loss is absorbed in Delta - yes. However, as I have said a thousand times Deltadud, one can draw inferences based upon
62 Post contains images RwSEA : It will be cool to see Song on the west coast at SEA and SFO ... but I wonder why they didn't try to open up some new routes that Delta wasn't already
63 SongStar : RichieRich... As I stated in post 40 and I'll state again....jetBlue would be the copycat in the NAS route...please scroll up....and as i also stated.
64 Carfield : Not joining the fight, but when will the official announcement come? The schedule is still not updated at delta.com, so I wonder when will Delta come
65 Post contains links STT757 : They officialy announced the service expansion on January 26th, here's the press release. http://www.flysong.com/song_and_you/news_releases/index.jsp
66 Carfield : Thanks... I saw the new schedule... Is there any celebration planning for the inaugural JFK-LAX flight on May 1? Just wonder if this will be another f
67 NWDC10 : Welcome to SEA Song! Robert NWDC10
68 Richierich : Song was to announced service from jfk-nas at 5am that morning...jetBlue caught wind of it in the overnite hours and trumped Song announcing service w
69 DeltaMIA : How would the folks at JetBlue have known Delta was planning to go JFK-NAS I don't really want to get in this debate, but it would have a lot to do wi
70 Richierich : Why else would B6 have to release their announcement 3 hours prior to the start of business? Doesn't JetBlue routinely send out announcements hours be
71 DeltaMIA : Doesn't JetBlue routinely send out announcements hours before the start of business? No, they are pretty consistent with 7am or 8am, except for this a
72 Richierich : No, they are pretty consistent with 7am or 8am, except for this announcement. Even today's service announcement went out right at 7am as usual. Accord
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