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UA At CLE  
User currently onlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 875 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

I was looking through some old UA timetables. Back in the 1970's United had a rather large presence at CLE. Why did UA reduce its presence there? (Too, close to ORD ? )

How long did that last? How did CO come to have its presence at CLE?

Thanks


DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

United had a hub at CLE for some time. They left because of the move to IAD, mostly. It was some time before CO finally came in the 1980s to re-hub Cleveland. UAL built the big hangar at CLE as well as Concourse C in the 1970s. They utilized all the gates at C at one point and even flew several 747s and DC-10s in every day. DC-8s were a very common site back then as well.


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User currently offlineOrd747Cle From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

That was then and this was now ... the best CLE sees (for PAX) is a 757 from CO and UA (from ORD).

It's just a matter of time before CLE become an all Express for UA.

Ord747Cle


User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

And go figure the weekend before 9/11 I saw a UA 767-300 headed for ORD and not long before that we had DC-10s. Apart from the heavies from UPS, FedEx and the like and the 757-300 from CO, we don't get much in the way of heavies anymore. It's a rare treat when some saudi prince comes over for surgery.


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User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Back in the 80's, I frequently flew on United's nonstop between Los Angeles and Cleveland. It was on a 727-200. Flight 49, I think. American also had a nonstop for a while.

There was also one-stop service from Cleveland to Honolulu and to Kahului, Maui. I can't say that I remember any 747s--it was always a DC-10 in those days.

I don't think there was ever any one-stop international service (800 or 900 level flights)--just Hawaii.

Nowadays Cleveland is limited to largely regional feeder services. There is frequent service to a wide variety of destinations, but the days of widebody, full-service flights are over. It's quite sad.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

I don't think there was ever any one-stop international service (800 or 900 level flights)--just Hawaii.

The first true direct international, non-Charter service for CLE was when Pan Am Started a CLE-DTW.LGW route. They used an A310, I believe. I remember seeing fomer CLE Mayor Mike White sitting in the Flight Deck of the first direct service (picture in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, not in person). Later, after PA folded, ran the CLE-DTW-LGW for a very short time.

Of course, CLE's first scheduled nonstop service was CO 66 which started in June of 1999.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

US had a mini-hub in CLE for awhile, mostly East Coast-West Coast type of thing. When CO went into CLE and hubbed it, US pulled back. Which of course seemed to be US's competitive strategy in the 80's and 90's.


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User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

US had a mini-hub in CLE for awhile, mostly East Coast-West Coast type of thing. When CO went into CLE and hubbed it, US pulled back.

Incorrect. CO started it's hub in CLE in 1987. Around the late 80's and early 90's, US built up it's "hub" in CLE, almost city-for-city with CO's mainline operation. Both at one time, had over 100 mainline jet flights in and out of CLE.

Unfortuantely, despite the best efforts of CO to screw up their earlier advantage (anyone working for US or CO in CLE at the time will tell you about CO's "Nuts to USAir campaign, that got an entire PR firm fired from CO), US got clobbered by CO in the CLE market, and got out of almost every market they had challenged CO in.


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Does UA still have the Red Carpet room @ CLE? I was there last year and it looked like it was on its way out. You had to enter a code to enter - an unattended lounge, which isn't bad, just atypical.


B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Does UA still have the Red Carpet room @ CLE?

They still do. The only reason I know that is that I happened to go get a dinner at Max and Erma's on B Concourse the other day ,then was taking my nice 10 ounce Mushroom and Swiss Burger up to the observation deck and enjoy it.  Big grin

Oh, and I happened to notice that UA still had a Red Carpet there.  Laugh out loud I didn't think they did, so I was mildy surprised. I didn't know it was unattended, though.


User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3129 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

DL used to have one-plane service CLE-DTW-Europe (LGW?).


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2839 times:

I remember my first flight in 1974. CLE to MIA on a UA 727-200. The Sunbird Special or something like that. It was a champagne brunch service. I think my mother had to get off in a wheel chair.

Some routes I remember as a kid of UA in CLE.

CLE-EWR
CLE-LGA
CLE-BOS
CLE-SFO
CLE-LAS
CLE-LAX
CLE-MCO
CLE-MIA
CLE-FLL
CLE-RSW (FMY in those days)
CLE-SRQ
CLE-TPA
CLE-0RD
CLE-DEN
CLE-DCA
CLE-PHL

UA dumped its CLE hub around the time the PA Pacific Routes were awarded. It beefed up its IAD presence. Then CO moved from IAD to CLE.

Safe Flying  Smile

In the old days. UA NW US and EA all had various nonstops from CLE. DL even used to fly the old DC8 stretches in there. NW and UA had some DC10's. Of course UA had the Stretch 8's as well.




Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Yes, the route authority was included in the acquisition of PA's european network in '91. The CLE-DTW-LGW routing was due to the short runway at CLE. CLE tag served the needs of British Petroleum, who had their US HQ in CLE. It was usually operated by DL with an A310, but there was an occassional L1011 on the routing.

NW had a stroke over it, wanted the route authority from PA. They used to sit an NW agent at the gate in DTW with a counter to see how many people were on the flight daily. NW wanted the authority, but didn't want to pay for it. Eventually, DL sold the authority to NW for something around $30 million if I'm not mistaken.

Getting back on topic, I grew up in a suburb of CLE that had a lot of UA crewmembers living in it. One summer, most left. That's when IAD opened. The FA base remained open for a long time after that, went very senior. Don't know when it closed, but I'm sure it was mid to late 90's.


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5008 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Falcon84:

Well my selective memory was off a bit on the timing. How long did US put up a fight for CLE? I remember at the time of the PSA buyout, CLE was an important station in US's effort to link the PSA network in the west with US's in the east. I don't remember the US/CO battle for CLE lasting that long.



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User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

How long did US put up a fight for CLE?

My memory may be a bit off, but I'd say it was two years. At the time, US was a more well-thought of airline than CO, and everyone thought that when US came in and challenged for supremacy in CLE, that they'd win. That's why the PR firm for CO started the "Nuts To USAir" ad campaign, and had "Connie The Elephant" doing the commercial-CO was scared.

But CO even in those days ran a better operation than US, and US just never seemd to be able to get over the hump. Of course, part of that was they got smart and started to get rid of their multiple east coast hubs (SYR, CLE, PIT, DAY, PHL, BWI, DCA, CLT..did I miss any), and consolidated in just a few. But there's no doubt CO kicked their butts in CLEBig grin


User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

my 1st commercial flight was on a United DC-10 Friendship CLE-TPA-CLE in 1975 i believe. i remember nonstop 747 Friendships to ORD and MIA back in those days. United ran the hub back then with 737 feeder routes to places like GRR, ABE, TOL, FNT, CRW and others.


chris



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User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2017 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

The United operation in Cleveland was obviously never anything on the scale of ORD, but it was sizeable. When Concourse C opened in 1968-1969, it was occupied almost entirely by United, although the gates on the eastern side belonged to Northwest Orient.

As Chrisjake said, it was mostly a bunch of 727s and 737s from smaller cities like South Bend, Flint, Buffalo, etc., feeding banks that went to both coasts. United also inherited some routes from Cleveland to Florida via Atlanta from their merger with Capital in 1961.

I'm always fascinated when I look back at CLE in the 1970s. They had a very healthy mix of traffic - United was the leader, but American and Northwest weren't far behind. Allegheny and Mohawk (until 1972, anyhow) also had sizeable operations. Only Concourse C had jetbridges, and the terminal was tiny - today's two-level building wasn't added on until 1977-1978. Must have been an interesting place.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 673 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Sad to say, United once flew wide body DC-10-10s from CLE to LAX and SFO, at one point had a Boeing 747 (classic) flying between CLE and ORD as an end point to Hawaiian service from Chicago, and flew to seemingly a myriad of 727 and 737 destinations out of Concourse C. Today the end is in sight, including that converted storeroom that passes for an unattended Red Carpet Club.

Falcon84 can perhaps answer this one better than any, but I never thought the battle between Continental and Allegheny/USair/USAirways was much of a fight due to the fact most of their flights were destined to PIT, a major hub a 100nm away. Having two Midwest hubs so close in proximity was the height of illogic. When United pulled out, I in my mind always believed American Airlines would take up the slack, even with the then growing commitment at Chicago.

For those who go back further than I, American Airlines started nonstop Cleveland to West Coast service using DC-7's back in the 1957. It was a big PR boost to the city of Cleveland, and naturally the city officials and the media of that day reportedly were all out in force.


User currently onlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

AA also operated the first jet service to CLE with the 707 and even maintained their own hangar right beside United. The hangar even still had the old fashioned United Airlines and American Airlines lettering on it right up until Continental Express took it over from USAir.


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User currently offlineOptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

I remember when the north hangar had American Airlines and United Airlines written on it. Ahh those were the days. Back then you could often spot a Rich International L-1011 or American Flight Airways/Kalita 747 sitting between that hangar and the A Terminal. Anyone remember those flights?

I personally flew a United Airlines 767-200 ORD-CLE in April of 2000. I believe those flights ended right after 9/11 but right up until then, UA still flew some widebodies into CLE.

-Andrew


User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Here is what I wonder: the runway at CLE was just extended to support widebody aircraft, yet CLE has a history of many widebody aircraft. What was wrong with the runways in 2000 that wasn't wrong with it in 1975??

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

>Here is what I wonder: the runway at CLE was just extended to support widebody aircraft, yet CLE has a history of many widebody aircraft. What was wrong with the runways in 2000 that wasn't wrong with it in 1975??<

The widebody flights were of the much shorter haul variety. 747s and DC-10s would go to places like LAX and ORD. Since they need a fraction of the fuel that is needed for long hauls, they could take the planes off much more quickly. I have seen UA 744s flying LAX-DEN that beat the WN 73Gs off 24R because they are so light



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User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Wow, I never knew that UA nearly owned CLE. Did they just let CO have it or were they alredy entrenched in ORD?

User currently offlineGoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Ncflyer

The runway that was extended was new. 6L/24R was built new and was always meant to be around 9000'. They opened the first 7000' while completing the rest. 6R/24L was the runway they would have used before, as it was and still is 8999'x150'.

They are planning on expanding 6R/24L to 11250' (or so) to accommodate long range widebody ops and high weight cargo planes. As was mentioned, the prior widebodies were relatively short range.



"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
User currently onlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

LambertMan:

From what I have been reading, from here and other places, UA must have built up CLE over the years during regulation when they were the CAB's first choice airline for routes east - west, northern tier. By the 1970's they had quite a presence there.

After deregulation, PA sold their Transpac to UA and UA migrated CLE to IAD. Sensible move, UA had an even larger ops at ORD at the time, but left a hole at CLE, fought over by US and CO.

[Edited 2005-02-01 04:15:34]


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User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Falcon84 can perhaps answer this one better than any, but I never thought the battle between Continental and Allegheny/USair/USAirways was much of a fight due to the fact most of their flights were destined to PIT, a major hub a 100nm away.

It was a fight, while it lasted. CO started to build up the hub in the summer of '97. CO had 16 daily flights when I started in 1987-no Express flights, only mainline to BUF, DTW, IAD, EWR, DEN and IAH, if memory serves. By that fall, I think CO was up over 60 daily flights. But the time CO had gotten the hub, around 1990, I believe to about 105 mainline (and by this time, COEX, operated by Britt North then also had around 100 departures daily), US then went in, and, on the mainline side, tried to match CO virtually market-for-market. US was flying CLE-PHX, CLE-SAN, CLE-SFO, CLE-RSW, CLE-MCO, even CLE-EWR. About the only markets I don't think they went up against CO was CLE-DEN, CLE-IAH.

And, as you said, it was the height of illogic, and they finally got smart within 24 months, and disbanded this "hub" in CLE. I never understood why US, officailly, had like 8 hubs east of the Mississippi at one time, that was in their timetable: DAY, CLE, PIT, SYR, PHL, IAD, BWI, CLT. It made no sense.


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