N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8008 posts, RR: 27 Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2253 times:
United had a hub at CLE for some time. They left because of the move to IAD, mostly. It was some time before CO finally came in the 1980s to re-hub Cleveland. UAL built the big hangar at CLE as well as Concourse C in the 1970s. They utilized all the gates at C at one point and even flew several 747s and DC-10s in every day. DC-8s were a very common site back then as well.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8008 posts, RR: 27 Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2202 times:
And go figure the weekend before 9/11 I saw a UA 767-300 headed for ORD and not long before that we had DC-10s. Apart from the heavies from UPS, FedEx and the like and the 757-300 from CO, we don't get much in the way of heavies anymore. It's a rare treat when some saudi prince comes over for surgery.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2182 times:
I don't think there was ever any one-stop international service (800 or 900 level flights)--just Hawaii.
The first true direct international, non-Charter service for CLE was when Pan Am Started a CLE-DTW.LGW route. They used an A310, I believe. I remember seeing fomer CLE Mayor Mike White sitting in the Flight Deck of the first direct service (picture in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, not in person). Later, after PA folded, ran the CLE-DTW-LGW for a very short time.
Of course, CLE's first scheduled nonstop service was CO 66 which started in June of 1999.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2097 times:
US had a mini-hub in CLE for awhile, mostly East Coast-West Coast type of thing. When CO went into CLE and hubbed it, US pulled back. Which of course seemed to be US's competitive strategy in the 80's and 90's.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2082 times:
US had a mini-hub in CLE for awhile, mostly East Coast-West Coast type of thing. When CO went into CLE and hubbed it, US pulled back.
Incorrect. CO started it's hub in CLE in 1987. Around the late 80's and early 90's, US built up it's "hub" in CLE, almost city-for-city with CO's mainline operation. Both at one time, had over 100 mainline jet flights in and out of CLE.
Unfortuantely, despite the best efforts of CO to screw up their earlier advantage (anyone working for US or CO in CLE at the time will tell you about CO's "Nuts to USAir campaign, that got an entire PR firm fired from CO), US got clobbered by CO in the CLE market, and got out of almost every market they had challenged CO in.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2050 times:
Does UA still have the Red Carpet room @ CLE?
They still do. The only reason I know that is that I happened to go get a dinner at Max and Erma's on B Concourse the other day ,then was taking my nice 10 ounce Mushroom and Swiss Burger up to the observation deck and enjoy it.
Oh, and I happened to notice that UA still had a Red Carpet there. I didn't think they did, so I was mildy surprised. I didn't know it was unattended, though.
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3224 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1857 times:
Yes, the route authority was included in the acquisition of PA's european network in '91. The CLE-DTW-LGW routing was due to the short runway at CLE. CLE tag served the needs of British Petroleum, who had their US HQ in CLE. It was usually operated by DL with an A310, but there was an occassional L1011 on the routing.
NW had a stroke over it, wanted the route authority from PA. They used to sit an NW agent at the gate in DTW with a counter to see how many people were on the flight daily. NW wanted the authority, but didn't want to pay for it. Eventually, DL sold the authority to NW for something around $30 million if I'm not mistaken.
Getting back on topic, I grew up in a suburb of CLE that had a lot of UA crewmembers living in it. One summer, most left. That's when IAD opened. The FA base remained open for a long time after that, went very senior. Don't know when it closed, but I'm sure it was mid to late 90's.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1779 times:
Well my selective memory was off a bit on the timing. How long did US put up a fight for CLE? I remember at the time of the PSA buyout, CLE was an important station in US's effort to link the PSA network in the west with US's in the east. I don't remember the US/CO battle for CLE lasting that long.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1756 times:
How long did US put up a fight for CLE?
My memory may be a bit off, but I'd say it was two years. At the time, US was a more well-thought of airline than CO, and everyone thought that when US came in and challenged for supremacy in CLE, that they'd win. That's why the PR firm for CO started the "Nuts To USAir" ad campaign, and had "Connie The Elephant" doing the commercial-CO was scared.
But CO even in those days ran a better operation than US, and US just never seemd to be able to get over the hump. Of course, part of that was they got smart and started to get rid of their multiple east coast hubs (SYR, CLE, PIT, DAY, PHL, BWI, DCA, CLT..did I miss any), and consolidated in just a few. But there's no doubt CO kicked their butts in CLE.
Chrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 843 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1714 times:
my 1st commercial flight was on a United DC-10 Friendship CLE-TPA-CLE in 1975 i believe. i remember nonstop 747 Friendships to ORD and MIA back in those days. United ran the hub back then with 737 feeder routes to places like GRR, ABE, TOL, FNT, CRW and others.
Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
Jsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1867 posts, RR: 16 Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1607 times:
The United operation in Cleveland was obviously never anything on the scale of ORD, but it was sizeable. When Concourse C opened in 1968-1969, it was occupied almost entirely by United, although the gates on the eastern side belonged to Northwest Orient.
As Chrisjake said, it was mostly a bunch of 727s and 737s from smaller cities like South Bend, Flint, Buffalo, etc., feeding banks that went to both coasts. United also inherited some routes from Cleveland to Florida via Atlanta from their merger with Capital in 1961.
I'm always fascinated when I look back at CLE in the 1970s. They had a very healthy mix of traffic - United was the leader, but American and Northwest weren't far behind. Allegheny and Mohawk (until 1972, anyhow) also had sizeable operations. Only Concourse C had jetbridges, and the terminal was tiny - today's two-level building wasn't added on until 1977-1978. Must have been an interesting place.
Highflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 596 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1539 times:
Sad to say, United once flew wide body DC-10-10s from CLE to LAX and SFO, at one point had a Boeing 747 (classic) flying between CLE and ORD as an end point to Hawaiian service from Chicago, and flew to seemingly a myriad of 727 and 737 destinations out of Concourse C. Today the end is in sight, including that converted storeroom that passes for an unattended Red Carpet Club.
Falcon84 can perhaps answer this one better than any, but I never thought the battle between Continental and Allegheny/USair/USAirways was much of a fight due to the fact most of their flights were destined to PIT, a major hub a 100nm away. Having two Midwest hubs so close in proximity was the height of illogic. When United pulled out, I in my mind always believed American Airlines would take up the slack, even with the then growing commitment at Chicago.
For those who go back further than I, American Airlines started nonstop Cleveland to West Coast service using DC-7's back in the 1957. It was a big PR boost to the city of Cleveland, and naturally the city officials and the media of that day reportedly were all out in force.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8008 posts, RR: 27 Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1509 times:
AA also operated the first jet service to CLE with the 707 and even maintained their own hangar right beside United. The hangar even still had the old fashioned United Airlines and American Airlines lettering on it right up until Continental Express took it over from USAir.
OptionsCLE From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 467 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1467 times:
I remember when the north hangar had American Airlines and United Airlines written on it. Ahh those were the days. Back then you could often spot a Rich International L-1011 or American Flight Airways/Kalita 747 sitting between that hangar and the A Terminal. Anyone remember those flights?
I personally flew a United Airlines 767-200 ORD-CLE in April of 2000. I believe those flights ended right after 9/11 but right up until then, UA still flew some widebodies into CLE.
Ncflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 447 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1422 times:
Here is what I wonder: the runway at CLE was just extended to support widebody aircraft, yet CLE has a history of many widebody aircraft. What was wrong with the runways in 2000 that wasn't wrong with it in 1975??
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25869 posts, RR: 79 Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1407 times:
>Here is what I wonder: the runway at CLE was just extended to support widebody aircraft, yet CLE has a history of many widebody aircraft. What was wrong with the runways in 2000 that wasn't wrong with it in 1975??<
The widebody flights were of the much shorter haul variety. 747s and DC-10s would go to places like LAX and ORD. Since they need a fraction of the fuel that is needed for long hauls, they could take the planes off much more quickly. I have seen UA 744s flying LAX-DEN that beat the WN 73Gs off 24R because they are so light
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
GoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
The runway that was extended was new. 6L/24R was built new and was always meant to be around 9000'. They opened the first 7000' while completing the rest. 6R/24L was the runway they would have used before, as it was and still is 8999'x150'.
They are planning on expanding 6R/24L to 11250' (or so) to accommodate long range widebody ops and high weight cargo planes. As was mentioned, the prior widebodies were relatively short range.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
FlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 828 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1352 times:
From what I have been reading, from here and other places, UA must have built up CLE over the years during regulation when they were the CAB's first choice airline for routes east - west, northern tier. By the 1970's they had quite a presence there.
After deregulation, PA sold their Transpac to UA and UA migrated CLE to IAD. Sensible move, UA had an even larger ops at ORD at the time, but left a hole at CLE, fought over by US and CO.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1336 times:
Falcon84 can perhaps answer this one better than any, but I never thought the battle between Continental and Allegheny/USair/USAirways was much of a fight due to the fact most of their flights were destined to PIT, a major hub a 100nm away.
It was a fight, while it lasted. CO started to build up the hub in the summer of '97. CO had 16 daily flights when I started in 1987-no Express flights, only mainline to BUF, DTW, IAD, EWR, DEN and IAH, if memory serves. By that fall, I think CO was up over 60 daily flights. But the time CO had gotten the hub, around 1990, I believe to about 105 mainline (and by this time, COEX, operated by Britt North then also had around 100 departures daily), US then went in, and, on the mainline side, tried to match CO virtually market-for-market. US was flying CLE-PHX, CLE-SAN, CLE-SFO, CLE-RSW, CLE-MCO, even CLE-EWR. About the only markets I don't think they went up against CO was CLE-DEN, CLE-IAH.
And, as you said, it was the height of illogic, and they finally got smart within 24 months, and disbanded this "hub" in CLE. I never understood why US, officailly, had like 8 hubs east of the Mississippi at one time, that was in their timetable: DAY, CLE, PIT, SYR, PHL, IAD, BWI, CLT. It made no sense.