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Boeing In Talks With QF On B747 ADV  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12091 posts, RR: 18
Posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15223 times:
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Boeing is in talks with QF about the proposed B747ADV. Boeing also talked about the B787. The B747ADV will be able to carry upto 500 passengers, and using the same engines and cockpit technology as the B787. The 747ADV will be able to fly further then 14,816 kms. The A380 can fly upto 14,800 kms.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Business/Boeing-seeks-feedback-from-Qantass/2005/01/31/1107020312588.html?oneclick=true

85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15081 times:

I highly doubt QF will go 747ADV , if launches.

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12091 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 15047 times:
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QF have stated that the B747 will remain the "workhorse" of the QF fleet. Some of the QF B747 fleet are nearing retirment, so there is a good chance the B747ADV will be purchased.

User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14973 times:

777ER,

Dream on. I've been to Dixon briefings. The 747ADV has no credibility at Qantas, their having been through umpteen versions of what Boeing might do to keep the line relevant to the airline's future requirements.

HOWEVER we need not be at all downhearted about the chances of the 787. They are probably getting better all the time. Qantas is a large user of middle aged 767s, and may well be tempted by all of the variants within the next seven to eight years.

I wish I could say the same for the 777-300ER and eventually the -200LR. Can't see any real signs of hope as yet....but fingers crossed.

Antares


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12091 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14932 times:
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I'm not the one dreaming about the B747ADV, Boeing is the dreaming one.

User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 14843 times:

Should probably read Boeing is in talks with QF about the 787. Boeing also talked about the proposed 747ADV.

I'm sure it came up for about 60secs.

There have been at least 11 variations of a proposed 747ADV since 1999, and Qantas are probably unlucky enough to have had their time wasted looking at most of them.

Unless there is a white knight out there willing to place a launch order of 30-50, it isn't going to happen. Even B can't decide how big, how advanced, how much 787 v 777 commonality.


User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4137 posts, RR: 90
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14740 times:
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That would be the same QANTAS that bought the passenger version of the 744ER so out of those "11 variations" they're talking to the one airline that actually bought one, ok, not the Adv but an upgraded 744, same day as they bought the A380 too. I believe QF would have spent more than 60 seconds deciding on a $1bn fleet investment.

Regards



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14508 times:

VERY LIKELY they will if Boeing builds one.........

They publicly stated that the B 747 will remain as the key aircraft. Also they ordered some B 747-400ERs. I am sure they will be interested in the B 747 Advanced.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14469 times:

If I were QF I would tell Boeing to put a new composite wing on it, along with FBW, 777 style tailcone and then we will talk. And not until then.

User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14380 times:

The B747 Advanced needs a new wing. Definitely.

Boeing must make it VERY VERY advanced.


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14360 times:

If Boeing gave it a new wing they'd have an awfully large R&D bill to meet. It wouldn't be worth it considering the size of the market and realising it's being shared with the A380.

User currently offlineLeanOfPeak From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 509 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14326 times:

I am sure Qantas doesn't have anything like that. They will say that there are certain performance and noise criteria the aircraft must meet for them to purchase it. They couldn't care less how those criteria are met.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14207 times:

Boeing can either go for a minimal investment or a much more serious redevelopment. In the former case, they don't need to sell many to break even. In the latter case, the number needed to be sold is much higher. I'm sure Boeing right now is talking to the airlines to see which choice makes sense. My guess is the minimal redevelopment.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14132 times:

The B747 Advanced needs a new wing. Definitely.

It isn't going to get one.

That's the thing. There's going to be almost nothing advanced about it except the engines.

QF is tired of the product.

N


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14065 times:
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QF is tired of the product.

QF have stated that the B747 will remain the "workhorse" of the QF fleet.

Ok - so who's right? QF has always been a loyal Boeing customer and seems (from what I've seen) to love the 747, but they've been ordering more and more Airbus equipment lately, too.






"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14040 times:

I'm not always right, but QF does have a tender out for the A340-600 and 777-300ER to replace 747s in the medium term.

I say QF is tired of the product because they've borne the brunt of Boeing's 11 different marketing campaigns for new 747s over the last few years.

N


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

I'm not always right, but QF does have a tender out for the A340-600 and 777-300ER to replace 747s in the medium term.

Only the B 747-300s, not 400s. And the B 747-300s have just recieved their upgrades and they will not be leaving anytime soon.

Boeing will probably design a new wing in my opinion to attract more customers


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13972 times:

Your opinion doesn't really matter on this. The 747 Advanced being offered does not feature a new wing.

They've offered customers 11 different 747s in the past few years, the first few had all new wings but customers simply weren't willing to pay the price.

The one being offered now is a very low change model. Two plugs and new engines, and that's it. No new systems, no FBW, no different materials, nothing.

N


User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13951 times:

> FCKC: I highly doubt QF will go 747ADV , if launches.

What is this based on? Your hunch or blind loyalty towards Airbus?



The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineORD2PHL From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13478 times:

Boeing isn't officially offering anything yet, I think they are merely trying to feel potential customers out again for what they might want, it's amazing how little actual FACTS there are in this thread....


ORD2PHL


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13329 times:

I'll add a few firm facts about the 744ER.

Boeing offered the jet to induce Qantas not to buy the A380. But the price for the 744ER (which is a damn good plane) was so low, Qantas bought both, and made Seattle look real dumb.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13236 times:

Here's to hoping said talks come to nothing.

The Hunchback of Puget Sound deserves a bullet through the head, and then an honorable sendoff.

Boeing is a master of ingenuity-under-pressure, let them find something more worthy (or perhaps even revolutionary) to carry on as their flagship  Big grin


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12091 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13111 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

That's the thing. There's going to be almost nothing advanced about it except the engines. as well as new cockpit technology that the B787 will have.

I'm not always right, but QF does have a tender out for the A340-600 and 777-300ER to replace 747s in the medium term.
Only the B 747-300s, not 400s. And the B 747-300s have just recieved their upgrades and they will not be leaving anytime soon.
The tender is for the B743s and some of QFs oldest B744s

The one being offered now is a very low change model. Two plugs and new engines, and that's it. No new systems, no FBW, no different materials, nothing. The B747ADV will use the same cockpit technology that will be used in the B787

Your opinion doesn't really matter on this Gigneil, everyones opinion matters. Please refer to rule #1.


User currently offlineJDD1 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 94 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12835 times:

Whilst I believe that some airlines see a need for an airplane of 747ADV size I don't think that it can be a 747Adv. The 747 was certificated on 30 Dec 1969. Type certificate A20WE. This TC covers all 747 models. The -400 version was certificated to Amendment 25-59 except for some 28 exceptions. One of these exceptions - Damage tolerance and fatigue evaluation - was at Amd 22. A 747ADV would still be at Amd 22 for damage tolerance because they would need a new structure to meet today's standards which are near Amd 100. I don't think that either the FAA, European nor Australian authorities will allow Grandfather rights for another version of the 747 where the structure except for the stretched upper deck is still a 1960s design. I have been told that this is one of the reasons that the -500 was dropped as Boeing had to admit quietly that they didn't know if they could convince the FAA to accept Grandfather rights yet again. Even if they could modify the -400 enough to convince the authorities and the airlines and at reasonable cost, they would perhaps have the A380-700 to contend with. Remember the 747SP was developed to keep the DC10-30 out of certain 747 markets.


Ref:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet


User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4137 posts, RR: 90
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

I'm not always right, but QF does have a tender out for the A340-600 and 777-300ER to replace 747s in the medium term

Gigneil you are right. They have an RFP out for A346 & 773ER with a decision expected around May, I believe. Correct me if wrong on decision timing.

Boeing offered the jet to induce Qantas not to buy the A380. But the price for the 744ER (which is a damn good plane) was so low, Qantas bought both, and made Seattle look real dumb

Antares. That is a fact, no doubt. If I may differ a little in my interpretation though. IIRC one of the Boeing sales team admitted that the loss of the campaign did "hurt" though that was more that they went with the A380 & A330. From a financial point of view Boeing still did ok as at that time each 747 delivered contributed $.08-$.12 per share to Boeings earnings* and Airbus could have walked away with the entire order.

Back on topic and one quote from the article stands out:

"They have (also) expressed an interest to us in the Boeing 777-300ER and we have just mentioned this airplane to them, 747 Advanced

That covers it well, a Boeing executive being quoted as saying that they put the concept to QF while responding to the 773ER RFP. Later in the article Mr Feren then says:

"We're having conversations with airline customers, we're putting together what we think is a concept that we're going to take to the market place and we will see what feedback we get,"

Product development involves that and given QFs current 744 fleet and that they were launch customer for the 744ER it's quite understandable that Boeing would target them. We've heard nothing from QF though. I think Mr Feren's main reason for being in SYD is in response to QFs RFP and to pitch the 773ER and 787. It would be good to have a more substantial report though.

Just my $.02

Regards

* Source: Boeing Co. SEC & Regulatory Filings




Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
25 7E72004 : I hope the 747ADV goes through...once the 717 production is done, the only ones left will be the 767, 777, 737, and 747 (with the 767 probably ending
26 Trent900 : I think if QF had not purchased A380's they probably would go for this. Flying an A380 and 747ADV side by side does not make sense to me. T.
27 Ozair : I could see Qantas going for the 747ADV due to a number of factors but what is more exciting for Qantas would be the 787 purchase. I understand that n
28 Boeing Nut : I disagree with some of you that the wing for the 747AVD needs to be a new design. It's a good design still as it is. Although switching out the tripl
29 Anstar : QF have already made a decision. It's called the A380. The A380 will replace the 744's on their highest density routes. This will free up a few 744's
30 Jupiter2 : Ozair, They will never be allowed to operate these aircraft in the curfew hours in SYD, it would open up a can of worms that no government, nor commun
31 DfwRevolution : The B747 Advanced needs a new wing. Definitely. Why? It is more aerodynamically efficency than many wings built in the last decade... though structura
32 Ozair : Jupiter2, I was under the impression that certain aircraft were allowed to operate during curfew times due to low noise levels? In regards to the 747A
33 Post contains images The Coachman : United Airline, your posts are full of hearsay and opinions that really have very little logical basis which you then classify and assert almost as fa
34 Cedarjet : Before I quote myself from another thread, I can't pass up the opportunity to have a pop with DfwRevolution. Sir, you cannot claim that QF play it fas
35 Lehpron : >>"The B747ADV will be able to carry upto 500 passengers..."
36 Antares : Let me explain why I think the 787 is growing in favour for a Qantas order. It becomes available when on current growth Sydney is starting to look lik
37 Cedarjet : Canberra to LAX? To Hong Kong? Dude, you're tripping. Have you actually visited your nation's capital? You think a few five-storey office blocks and a
38 Gigneil : Gigneil, everyones opinion matters. Not when the facts are contrary. No matter what United Airline's opinion on Boeing's tactic in re: a new wing for
39 Gigneil : Meanwhile the 787-3 is the logical replacement for 762s on inter city and trans Tasman routes. The 787-3 holds almost 100 more seats than the 762, and
40 Antares : Cedarjet, I trip a lot and I think you're totally out of touch with what is happening both in the capital and at Sydney. Convenient new slots are goin
41 N1120A : >So with A380 & A346/773ER for long haul...why on earth would they want a 747ADV???< Because as it is, the 744 has lower seat mile than the A346/773ER
42 QANTASforever : Cedarjet - He might not be as high on drugs as you think. There has been talk for some time about upgrading CBR for international heavy flights. The l
43 Post contains images QFA001 : QF is tired of the product ... I say QF is tired of the product because they've borne the brunt of Boeing's 11 different marketing campaigns for new 7
44 Scotron11 : It seems this 747ADV concept raises a lot of comment. Maybe this was the true so-called "dreamliner"! I am excited about the 747ADV as I absolutely lo
45 Irishpower : Regarding the whole "new wing thing---(hey that rhymed)"--I wouldn't be so sure Boeing won't design or upgrade the wing. Right now the 747ADV. concept
46 DAYflyer : Ok time for my two pennies worth here. I don't know sqaut about QF, have never been down under and have never flown anywhere on that airline, but IF I
47 PVG : Can I ask a stupid question? Why does it cost so much to develop a new wing? I mean, couldn't they just refine an existing design and use more modern
48 Gigneil : Because as it is, the 744 has lower seat mile than the A346/773ER and the 747ADV will cut those even further. Lower seat mile costs are possible, but
49 ClassicLover : Australians tend to fly a lot. Part of the reason is because the country is so large that flying is usually the cheapest and best option to get anywhe
50 PVG : Thanks classiclover!
51 BOEING747400 : Does anybody have the proposed technical specifications of the 747ADV? If so, then please release them!
52 DfwRevolution : Does anybody have the proposed technical specifications of the 747ADV? If so, then please release them! In a nutshell- 450 passengers in three class (
53 Bill142 : Canberra to LAX? To Hong Kong? Dude, you're tripping. Have you actually visited your nation's capital? You think a few five-storey office blocks and a
54 United Airline : If Boeing isn't willing to spend the $$$$$, then it's gonna fail. Better not build it. If they want it to be a success, then upgrade everything and ma
55 Post contains links and images QFA001 : Does anybody have the proposed technical specifications of the 747ADV? If so, then please release them! There is an 18-mth old document available here
56 AJ : If CASA pre-approves 207 minute ETOPS a long range twin is likely to join the Qantas fleet very soon.
57 PlaneSmart : Dfwrevolution 'In a nutshell- 450 passengers in three class (up from 415) 8,000 nm of range (up from roughly 7,200 nm) Mach .86 cruise QC2 noise compl
58 Bill142 : CBR will probably have services to SIN before the end of the year. Does QF know about this? Who said QF was operating it?
59 ANstar : QF won;t do Canberra... Sydney is their fortress for International...look how the neglect MEL.... By the time the 787 is ready to roll, the Aussie dom
60 Gigneil : QF ordered the B 747-400ER along with the A 380. They are not replacing B 747s with A 380s so I believe they will operate the B 747-400 for a long tim
61 Post contains images QFA001 : Who said QF was operating it [CBR-SIN]? Good point! By the time the 787 is ready to roll, the Aussie domestic market will probably be saturated with V
62 QANTAS077 : all this crap in here makes me want to cry, Qantas will do what is best for it's shareholders, the flying public and staff, everyone here seems to thi
63 777ER : If CASA pre-approves 207 minute ETOPS a long range twin is likely to join the Qantas fleet very soon. AJ, do you know if CASA is any where near approv
64 Dalecary : QANTAS077, go blow your smoke elsewhere. You are talking crap mate. There are quite a few people on this forum/topic who have a good insight into the
65 United Airline : Well the B 747 Advanced carries more passengers and can fly further..... Qantas hasn't made any statement regarding the B 747 Advanced so we better wa
66 PVG : Why would BA&QF place a few 747-400ER orders at the last minute rather than adding an advanced version of the same aircraft if the price was right?
67 United Airline : I agree with PVG. Better order the more advanced version.
68 PVG : I'm just wondering if there's a reason for that decision, not looking to be right or wrong.
69 The Coachman : What's wrong with a capacity reduction? BA did it when the 747 Classics went...772ER's replaced them, they just reduced the number of Y class pax and
70 PVG : Planesmart said that we shouldn't rule out a few last minutes 400ER orders, and I'm wondering why that's a better decision than deciding to buy the 74
71 QANTAS077 : Dale, i never said there wasn't some people that may know what they are on about, but most of this is just arm chair CEO's speculating on something th
72 PlaneSmart : PVG A fully amortised production line, the ability to sweeten loyal airlines that waited patiently for a definitive 747ADV to materialise, and steal s
73 PVG : Noted with thanks. What if they offer the same deal for a 747ADV? Would that entice anyone, or is it too different to bother?
74 United Airline : Lots of people fly first and business on routes to LAX, HKG, LHR etc.
75 Zvezda : Let's suppose that neither the soon-to-market, low-cost, minimally updated B747Adv and the later-to-market, more fully updated, higher-cost B747Adv ge
76 Gigneil : Planesmart said that we shouldn't rule out a few last minutes 400ER orders, and I'm wondering why that's a better decision than deciding to buy the 74
77 JDD1 : The 747Adv has to be a new airplane to get it certificated. Stop dreaming guys. Are B going to cough up another $11b or so in the near future? No. Or
78 PlaneSmart : PVG 'What if they offer the same deal for a 747ADV? Would that entice anyone, or is it too different to bother?' The 747ADV will have all the accrued
79 United Airline : Well if they want the B 747 Advanced to be a success, they need to make it very advanced and invest more $$$ into it. Otherwise they mind as well not
80 AvObserver : "Even if they could modify the -400 enough to convince the authorities and the airlines and at reasonable cost, they would perhaps have the A380-700 t
81 SLUAviator : I agree with the guys who said that the 747A needs a new wing. To take full advantage of the 787 technology advances, it needs a new wing. The current
82 PlaneSmart : SLUAviator You are right, there are plenty of spinoff benefits to be derived from the 787. But the market already perceives 787 technology as higher r
83 Astuteman : If the aim is to produce a "450 -seat niche" aircraft between 350 and 550 seats, how much easier would it be to do this with a FURTHER stretch of the
84 JDD1 : SLUAviator The current 744 wing is late 1960s design, as is all the systems. I believe only the stretched upper deck structure and some of the cockpit
85 Boeing Nut : how much easier would it be to do this with a FURTHER stretch of the 777, with appropriate technology enhancements (you guys choose...), in order to f
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