Bluepoole From South Africa, joined Jan 2005, 51 posts, RR: 3 Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8144 times:
Goodday everybody!
First of all, I've been visiting this site for almost two years - reading the forums, enjoying the photos, and even getting a couple of my own photos accepted into the database. I've finally signed up as a First Class member and look forward to many years as an active member on A.net.
Then, for my first forum, I want to raise the question: why don't any US carriers fly to South Africa? South African Airways flies to New York and Atlanta, and also has codeshare agreements with some US airlines for onward travel from JFK or ATL, and also for travel to South Africa.
I've been wondering why major US airlines like American, Continental and Delta don't fly to JNB directly. Is there any specific reason? Perhaps they don't see it as a profitable route?
FlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8028 times:
NWA Nortwest Airlines codeshares with KLM Royal Dutch Airlines via AMS.
BostonBeau From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 459 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8002 times:
Pan Am flew to J'burg from New York for many years. I don't think their early 747s were capable of nonstop service. I seem to remember they stopped off in Monrovia on the way.
MIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1335 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7982 times:
American has expressed interest in flying their 777 from MIA-CPT if I recall correctly..but I know their are some issues that they need to work out first. Range wise I think the 772 is capable...
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7968 times:
"Pan Am flew to J'burg for many years."
Did PA ever have 747SP's deployed on this route.
Certainly no American scheduled airlines have flown the route since the demise of PA, perhaps because economic sanctions were in effect against South Africa when PA stopped flying.
Bluepoole From South Africa, joined Jan 2005, 51 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7911 times:
Thank you for all the replies so far...
Boeing787 - yes, you are correct: SAA codeshares with Delta. Cool username that you have!
Leelaw - you may have a point, the sanctions against South Africa could have been the reason (or one of the reasons) why the US airlines all decided not to expand their route networks to South Africa. It is a pity that this never changed after all the political changes that took place in our country and South Africa became a "ballplayer" in the international arena again.
It would be awesome to see an American 777 here...or any other type from any other US carrier for that matter!
AT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7827 times:
I believe SA)">UA got the routes from PA after they went out. Back in the early nineties they (UA) were considering flying to JNB but at that time they shelved it because of capacity and union issues. Now that SA is joining star alliance I don't think we'll ever see SA)">UA in Africa.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5746 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7793 times:
As far as I know, SA)">AA wants to fly to SA with the 772 - but the pilots contracts states that no flights can operate beyond a certain time limit (14-16 hours I think it was), without some specific criterias being met. It's those criterias that SA)">AA are working on ironing out - at least, that's what I heard, last time this discussion came up here.
Mcmahonsmr From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 318 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7780 times:
I'd say if we were to see any American carrier opening up a US-JNB/CPT route it would probably be CO. Problem is that an ExpressJet and Boeing 757-200 don't quite have the range . . . and those 7e7s aren't coming for a while . . .
Clipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 671 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7752 times:
Pan Am operated a weekly trip to JNB with stops at DKR, ROB,ACC, LOS and DOU. We also operated a weekly flight to NBO. We never used the SP on those routes because we didn't need the range with all of those stops. For the crews, those were 13 day patterns. We quit flying to Africa more out of poor economics than anything else.
Bicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7709 times:
I assume the Delta codeshare will end when SAA joins the Star Alliance in the next few months. Has SAA determined when they'll move their flight from Atlanta to either IAD (Washington-Dulles) or Chicago? I'd love to have United fly its own aircraft to South Africa but I'm sure they'll only codeshare on SAA.
Malaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7595 times:
Aww I miss Pan Am, it seems Pan Am was the airline that flew to the places you would never picture a US airline at. my favorite Pan Am stop is BEY. on the other hand, did the AF Concorde fly to DKR at one time?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31120 posts, RR: 74 Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7570 times:
As stated, American has expressed interest in flying to South Africa (both CPT and JNB) from Miami, but there are logistical issues and using a 772 just wouldn't make the profits. However, with the 787 coming, and an order from AA inevitable, this is definitley the type of route that AA could use it on.
Alb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7565 times:
DL has the rights to South Africa as part of their purchase of the Pan Am routes. The route had been stopped by the time SA)">DL got it and no direct service by any carrier including SA was allowed until 1994 when apartheid ended. SA's first codeshare on the route was AA through JFK and MIA. SA)">DL started the codeshare in about 1999 with ATL and JFK. The ATL flight stopped at FLL until 9/11.
SA)">DL has experimented and flown their 777 ATL-JNB. Currently, the 343-600 SA is using on the ATL trip requires a stop in both directions. Direct service to CPT ends 2/6 and will require a change of aircraft in JNB.
AT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7545 times:
I flew the CPT-Atlanta flight last week and the Flight attendant mentioned that they were moving to Washington Dulles this summer. I hope they change there Eastbound transatlantic flight departure time from 10am. It's almost impossible to connect to that flight from anywhere other than the immediate area. It also makes the Jet Lag worse as you leave in the morning and arrive 17hours later at 8am! I prefer to fly Eastbound on the JFK flight(departs at 8pm)- I find the Jet Lag easier to handle. Also the stop in Cape Verde is a killer- An hour and a half stuck in the plane.
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7453 times:
PA did flight to JNB via GIG in the 60's - the flight to JNB was revived in the 80's with a stop in Monrovia, it was operated by a 747 classic. That continued to operate until PA went under, I believe, but it was not taken over by UA when they inherited the route.
In the early 90's, after apartheid was dismantled, a US carrier called USAfrica Airways operated MD11's (bought/leased from AA) from IAD to JNB via SID(? or possibly LBW), but it didn't last long (SAA basically killed them off, as they tend to do with most unwanted rivals on their milsch-cow routes). It wasn't a daily service, and IAD as a gateway didn't have the pull of JFK or MIA.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12338 posts, RR: 12 Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7427 times:
I would also suggest that since codeshares cover the USA-SA market with direct or with stops in Europe, there is little need for the costly investment in a/c, crews, ground services, marketing costs for the very finalcially strapped USA based airlines to consider what could be a very limited additional demand route/market. This market has probably been further reduced by the post-9/11 additional visa limits.
Imonti From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7368 times:
South African airways in recent times have been looking for 4 more 744 to use to Singapore and washington and they will keep the atlanta and new york routes, however if this bears any fruit i will be amazed.
They will move to Washington from atlanta but currently the route to atl is as "profitable" as it can be, if they dont start a third service.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7344 times:
As stated, American has expressed interest in flying to South Africa (both CPT and JNB) from Miami, but there are logistical issues and using a 772 just wouldn't make the profits.
It's not all logistical either, a lot of it is legal hassle.
Pilot stipulations (which should soon, if not already, no longer be a factor) and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big
SA)">DL has experimented and flown their 777 ATL-JNB.
Not really...
They flew it there to demonstrate on behalf of Boeing (as well as for a possible lease) with somewhat embarrassing results.
They flew it again for a golf tournament charter.
That's about it.
Currently, the 343-600 SA is using on the ATL trip requires a stop in both directions.
A340-600
It doesn't require an eastbound stop per se, SA chooses to stop so that they can pack on greater payload upon departure.
Even if AA stopped at DKR with their 772, they couldn't do it?L
AA could technically do it nonstop to CPT or JNB with a 656K 777-223ER....
...problem is, they'd need ETOPS180 to have any chance of doing so with any decent loads, and their requests have thusfar only been obliged with an ETOPS138 allotment.
Also, there were stipluations regarding rest areas in their 772ERs (as well as other factors) for flights of that length in their pilot contract.
Aa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7317 times:
Pilot stipulations (which should soon, if not already, no longer be a factor) and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big
friggin etops...
Also, there were stipluations regarding rest areas in their 772ERs (as well as other factors) for flights of that length in their pilot contract.
so it's all but killed, guess we'll have to wait and see if AA gets the 787.
Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor?
Regards.
25 DeltaMIA: Pan Am operated a weekly trip to JNB with stops at DKR, ROB,ACC, LOS and DOU The African Queen. 707 then a 747-100. This dispatchers and rampers had t
26 AussieItaliano: Even with SA being a member of SA (Star Alliance), I think they have every intention of maintaining their codeshare with DL (sort of like how SQ does)
27 Laxintl: Following Pan Am, two other US airlines did operate to South Africa during the 1990s. -US Africa Airways operated between IAD and South Africa with it
28 Dtwclipper: JGPH1A; Thanks for the confirmation on Pan Ams GIG-JNB service. However, the last services by Pan Am were FRA-JNB. dtwclipper
29 MAH4546: Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor?
30 MAH4546: Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor? AA studied starting this service after they ended their relations
31 Clipper002: Pan Am's last runs to JNB were done with A-310's from FRA. We also operated DC-8's in the late 60's and early 70's from JFK with the numerous stops I
32 ConcordeBoy: There was no reason to file with DOT, because, as stated, they don't have a plane to do it economically. That's not entirely true... lest you add "wit
33 Gkpetery: Not sure if it's true, but I heard from a travel agent that US carriers don't fly to the African continent, not because they don't/won't have the load
34 Leskova: Gkpetery, I'd say that that's not true. First of all, CO is planning to fly to LOS - which would put a US carrier onto African soil, at least as soon
35 AAFLT1871: so it's all but killed, guess we'll have to wait and see if AA gets the 787. Even with the 787, ETOPS will still come into play, barring the route. an
36 Leskova: and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big Do you think with the 787, the route would be granted by the FAA? If AA cannot get ETOPS ap
37 Jetjack74: This doesn't really count, But World Airways operates IAH-Luanda and Malabo service on behalf of Sonair. But it's to Southern Africa nonetheless View
38 Jumbojet: Well I would have thought that AA would codeshare with BA through LHR (OneWorld). But that makes it one hell of a trek to get to SA from USA. I agree
39 Argonaut: In the 50s and 60s, Pan Am flew through ACC from IDL/JFK to JNB at least once a week---DC-6Bs, then DC-7Cs, then DC-8s. Used to see them southbound, t
40 Alb222: BA does codeshare with AA LHR-JNB/CPT.....just did it. Actually, flight time via LHR to JNB from my home apo, SFO is 21.25hrs. Via JFK it's 21.05hrs a
41 Thrust: No US carriers even fly to Africa for that matter. Codesharing most likely is the reason the US carriers do not fly to Africa (yes, which South Africa
42 N743AS: CPT is increasing in popularity with Americans. Now with the strength of the EURO a lot of Americans are looking more and more at South Africa to an a
43 Africawings: Interesting Question. In the early 90's there was a small start up US based airline called US-Africa Airways that used two Ex American Airlines MD11s
44 Clipper002: African services were suspended by Pan Am do to economic questions, nothing at all to do with security. Don't forget, Pan Am built most of those airpo
45 PA110: DTWClipper and Clipper002 - PA never operated A310 service out of FRA to JNB. I think you are confusing JNB with NBO. PA discontinued JNB services aro
46 Clipper002: PA110, My bad. You are absolutely correct. I guess I was reading too much about JNB before I sent this thread. Thanks for the correction. DeltaMIA, Wh
47 JGPH1A: PA110 - thanks for clearing up the question about FRA-JNB by A310 - I was trying to recall ever seeing a PA 310 at JNB (I worked there for 7 years in
48 Clipper002: JGPH1A, Pan Am never operated the A310 to JNB. They came onboard very late in Pan Am's life. Ed
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