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Why Don't US Carriers Fly To SA?  
User currently offlineBluepoole From South Africa, joined Jan 2005, 51 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Goodday everybody!

First of all, I've been visiting this site for almost two years - reading the forums, enjoying the photos, and even getting a couple of my own photos accepted into the database. I've finally signed up as a First Class member and look forward to many years as an active member on A.net.

Then, for my first forum, I want to raise the question: why don't any US carriers fly to South Africa? South African Airways flies to New York and Atlanta, and also has codeshare agreements with some US airlines for onward travel from JFK or ATL, and also for travel to South Africa.

I've been wondering why major US airlines like American, Continental and Delta don't fly to JNB directly. Is there any specific reason? Perhaps they don't see it as a profitable route?

Looking forward to your replies.






Aircraft types flown on: A319, B727, B732, B733, B738, B744, DC9, MD82, DH3, DH4
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBOEING787 From India, joined May 2004, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

I believe DELTA codeshares with SAA on the JFK and ATL flights?

That is a begining perhaps?

Welcome as a First Class Member!



User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10239 times:

Has any scheduled American airline ever flown to South Africa? I don't recall PA or TWA ever flying there.

[Edited 2005-02-01 13:11:21]

User currently offlineFlyGuyClt From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10190 times:

NWA Nortwest Airlines codeshares with KLM Royal Dutch Airlines via AMS.

Safe Flying  Smile



Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
User currently offlineBostonBeau From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 463 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10164 times:

Pan Am flew to J'burg from New York for many years. I don't think their early 747s were capable of nonstop service. I seem to remember they stopped off in Monrovia on the way.

[Edited 2005-02-01 13:42:04]

User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10148 times:

Pan Am flew to JNB for many years with stoping points in many different cities over the years.

The ones the come to mind are FRA, and ROB, I also believe the flew GIG JNB and some point as well.



User currently offlineMIASkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10144 times:

American has expressed interest in flying their 777 from MIA-CPT if I recall correctly..but I know their are some issues that they need to work out first. Range wise I think the 772 is capable...


Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10130 times:

"Pan Am flew to J'burg for many years."

Did PA ever have 747SP's deployed on this route.

Certainly no American scheduled airlines have flown the route since the demise of PA, perhaps because economic sanctions were in effect against South Africa when PA stopped flying.


User currently offlineBluepoole From South Africa, joined Jan 2005, 51 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10073 times:

Thank you for all the replies so far...

Boeing787 - yes, you are correct: SAA codeshares with Delta. Cool username that you have!

Leelaw - you may have a point, the sanctions against South Africa could have been the reason (or one of the reasons) why the US airlines all decided not to expand their route networks to South Africa. It is a pity that this never changed after all the political changes that took place in our country and South Africa became a "ballplayer" in the international arena again.

It would be awesome to see an American 777 here...or any other type from any other US carrier for that matter!




Aircraft types flown on: A319, B727, B732, B733, B738, B744, DC9, MD82, DH3, DH4
User currently offlineAT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9989 times:

I believe SA)">UA got the routes from PA after they went out. Back in the early nineties they (UA) were considering flying to JNB but at that time they shelved it because of capacity and union issues. Now that SA is joining star alliance I don't think we'll ever see SA)">UA in Africa.


I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9955 times:

As far as I know, SA)">AA wants to fly to SA with the 772 - but the pilots contracts states that no flights can operate beyond a certain time limit (14-16 hours I think it was), without some specific criterias being met. It's those criterias that SA)">AA are working on ironing out - at least, that's what I heard, last time this discussion came up here.

User currently offlineMcmahonsmr From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

I'd say if we were to see any American carrier opening up a US-JNB/CPT route it would probably be CO. Problem is that an ExpressJet and Boeing 757-200 don't quite have the range . . . and those 7e7s aren't coming for a while . . .

User currently offlineClipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 679 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9914 times:

Pan Am operated a weekly trip to JNB with stops at DKR, ROB,ACC, LOS and DOU. We also operated a weekly flight to NBO. We never used the SP on those routes because we didn't need the range with all of those stops. For the crews, those were 13 day patterns. We quit flying to Africa more out of poor economics than anything else.

Ed



Ed
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9899 times:

Clipper002:

A friend of mine, who worked for PA through the 60's til the end, told me that there was also service through GIG. Is this correct?

dtwclipper


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 9871 times:

I assume the Delta codeshare will end when SAA joins the Star Alliance in the next few months. Has SAA determined when they'll move their flight from Atlanta to either IAD (Washington-Dulles) or Chicago? I'd love to have United fly its own aircraft to South Africa but I'm sure they'll only codeshare on SAA.

User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9757 times:

Aww I miss Pan Am, it seems Pan Am was the airline that flew to the places you would never picture a US airline at. my favorite Pan Am stop is BEY. on the other hand, did the AF Concorde fly to DKR at one time?


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

As stated, American has expressed interest in flying to South Africa (both CPT and JNB) from Miami, but there are logistical issues and using a 772 just wouldn't make the profits. However, with the 787 coming, and an order from AA inevitable, this is definitley the type of route that AA could use it on.


a.
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9727 times:

DL has the rights to South Africa as part of their purchase of the Pan Am routes. The route had been stopped by the time SA)">DL got it and no direct service by any carrier including SA was allowed until 1994 when apartheid ended. SA's first codeshare on the route was AA through JFK and MIA. SA)">DL started the codeshare in about 1999 with ATL and JFK. The ATL flight stopped at FLL until 9/11.
SA)">DL has experimented and flown their 777 ATL-JNB. Currently, the 343-600 SA is using on the ATL trip requires a stop in both directions. Direct service to CPT ends 2/6 and will require a change of aircraft in JNB.


User currently offlineAT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9707 times:

I flew the CPT-Atlanta flight last week and the Flight attendant mentioned that they were moving to Washington Dulles this summer. I hope they change there Eastbound transatlantic flight departure time from 10am. It's almost impossible to connect to that flight from anywhere other than the immediate area. It also makes the Jet Lag worse as you leave in the morning and arrive 17hours later at 8am! I prefer to fly Eastbound on the JFK flight(departs at 8pm)- I find the Jet Lag easier to handle. Also the stop in Cape Verde is a killer- An hour and a half stuck in the plane.


I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9615 times:

PA did flight to JNB via GIG in the 60's - the flight to JNB was revived in the 80's with a stop in Monrovia, it was operated by a 747 classic. That continued to operate until PA went under, I believe, but it was not taken over by UA when they inherited the route.

In the early 90's, after apartheid was dismantled, a US carrier called USAfrica Airways operated MD11's (bought/leased from AA) from IAD to JNB via SID(? or possibly LBW), but it didn't last long (SAA basically killed them off, as they tend to do with most unwanted rivals on their milsch-cow routes). It wasn't a daily service, and IAD as a gateway didn't have the pull of JFK or MIA.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9589 times:

I would also suggest that since codeshares cover the USA-SA market with direct or with stops in Europe, there is little need for the costly investment in a/c, crews, ground services, marketing costs for the very finalcially strapped USA based airlines to consider what could be a very limited additional demand route/market. This market has probably been further reduced by the post-9/11 additional visa limits.

User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9554 times:

MAH4546,

Do you have a source for your information? Just really curious.

MIA-JNB 8061 mi
MIA-CPT 7667 mi

Even if AA stopped at DKR with their 772, they couldn't do it?

regards,
AA777jr


User currently offlineImonti From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9530 times:

South African airways in recent times have been looking for 4 more 744 to use to Singapore and washington and they will keep the atlanta and new york routes, however if this bears any fruit i will be amazed.

They will move to Washington from atlanta but currently the route to atl is as "profitable" as it can be, if they dont start a third service.



User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9506 times:

As stated, American has expressed interest in flying to South Africa (both CPT and JNB) from Miami, but there are logistical issues and using a 772 just wouldn't make the profits.

It's not all logistical either, a lot of it is legal hassle.

Pilot stipulations (which should soon, if not already, no longer be a factor) and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big


SA)">DL has experimented and flown their 777 ATL-JNB.

Not really...

They flew it there to demonstrate on behalf of Boeing (as well as for a possible lease) with somewhat embarrassing results.

They flew it again for a golf tournament charter.

That's about it.




Currently, the 343-600 SA is using on the ATL trip requires a stop in both directions.

A340-600

It doesn't require an eastbound stop per se, SA chooses to stop so that they can pack on greater payload upon departure.



Even if AA stopped at DKR with their 772, they couldn't do it?L

AA could technically do it nonstop to CPT or JNB with a 656K 777-223ER....

...problem is, they'd need ETOPS180 to have any chance of doing so with any decent loads, and their requests have thusfar only been obliged with an ETOPS138 allotment.

Also, there were stipluations regarding rest areas in their 772ERs (as well as other factors) for flights of that length in their pilot contract.


User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

Pilot stipulations (which should soon, if not already, no longer be a factor) and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big

friggin etops... Smile

Also, there were stipluations regarding rest areas in their 772ERs (as well as other factors) for flights of that length in their pilot contract.

so it's all but killed, guess we'll have to wait and see if AA gets the 787.

Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor?

Regards.


25 DeltaMIA : Pan Am operated a weekly trip to JNB with stops at DKR, ROB,ACC, LOS and DOU The African Queen. 707 then a 747-100. This dispatchers and rampers had t
26 AussieItaliano : Even with SA being a member of SA (Star Alliance), I think they have every intention of maintaining their codeshare with DL (sort of like how SQ does)
27 Laxintl : Following Pan Am, two other US airlines did operate to South Africa during the 1990s. -US Africa Airways operated between IAD and South Africa with it
28 Dtwclipper : JGPH1A; Thanks for the confirmation on Pan Ams GIG-JNB service. However, the last services by Pan Am were FRA-JNB. dtwclipper
29 MAH4546 : Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor?
30 MAH4546 : Has AA even petitioned DOT for route authority to CPT or JNB, or is this a AA rumor? AA studied starting this service after they ended their relations
31 Clipper002 : Pan Am's last runs to JNB were done with A-310's from FRA. We also operated DC-8's in the late 60's and early 70's from JFK with the numerous stops I
32 ConcordeBoy : There was no reason to file with DOT, because, as stated, they don't have a plane to do it economically. That's not entirely true... lest you add "wit
33 Gkpetery : Not sure if it's true, but I heard from a travel agent that US carriers don't fly to the African continent, not because they don't/won't have the load
34 Leskova : Gkpetery, I'd say that that's not true. First of all, CO is planning to fly to LOS - which would put a US carrier onto African soil, at least as soon
35 AAFLT1871 : so it's all but killed, guess we'll have to wait and see if AA gets the 787. Even with the 787, ETOPS will still come into play, barring the route. an
36 Leskova : and FAA refusal to grant ETOPS180 for the route play a big Do you think with the 787, the route would be granted by the FAA? If AA cannot get ETOPS ap
37 Post contains links and images Jetjack74 : This doesn't really count, But World Airways operates IAH-Luanda and Malabo service on behalf of Sonair. But it's to Southern Africa nonetheless View
38 Jumbojet : Well I would have thought that AA would codeshare with BA through LHR (OneWorld). But that makes it one hell of a trek to get to SA from USA. I agree
39 Post contains images Argonaut : In the 50s and 60s, Pan Am flew through ACC from IDL/JFK to JNB at least once a week---DC-6Bs, then DC-7Cs, then DC-8s. Used to see them southbound, t
40 Alb222 : BA does codeshare with AA LHR-JNB/CPT.....just did it. Actually, flight time via LHR to JNB from my home apo, SFO is 21.25hrs. Via JFK it's 21.05hrs a
41 Post contains images Thrust : No US carriers even fly to Africa for that matter. Codesharing most likely is the reason the US carriers do not fly to Africa (yes, which South Africa
42 N743AS : CPT is increasing in popularity with Americans. Now with the strength of the EURO a lot of Americans are looking more and more at South Africa to an a
43 Africawings : Interesting Question. In the early 90's there was a small start up US based airline called US-Africa Airways that used two Ex American Airlines MD11s
44 Clipper002 : African services were suspended by Pan Am do to economic questions, nothing at all to do with security. Don't forget, Pan Am built most of those airpo
45 PA110 : DTWClipper and Clipper002 - PA never operated A310 service out of FRA to JNB. I think you are confusing JNB with NBO. PA discontinued JNB services aro
46 Clipper002 : PA110, My bad. You are absolutely correct. I guess I was reading too much about JNB before I sent this thread. Thanks for the correction. DeltaMIA, Wh
47 Post contains images JGPH1A : PA110 - thanks for clearing up the question about FRA-JNB by A310 - I was trying to recall ever seeing a PA 310 at JNB (I worked there for 7 years in
48 Clipper002 : JGPH1A, Pan Am never operated the A310 to JNB. They came onboard very late in Pan Am's life. Ed
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