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Atlanta Airport Boss: No A380 Here  
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 18125 times:

From AP:

ATLANTA (AP)--European airplane maker Airbus (ABI.YY) may have made the world's largest commercial jet, but it won't soon be touching down at Atlanta's airport, the airport's general manager said.

Ben DeCosta said the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport is not approved to land the A380 and that he does not think the market would support the double-decker "superjumbo" jet, which is capable of carrying 500 to 800 passengers.

Also, the airport would need a major overhaul to accommodate the A380, which has a 262-foot wingspan and a tail as tall as a seven-story building.

"It would cost millions," DeCosta said.

[...]

He goes on to talk about taxiways and other things. I found it in the WSJ so I can't provide a link. Sorry.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
113 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17985 times:

Isn't Atlanta one of the most congested airport in the world ?
Considering the traffic, "it would cost millions" is probably not very convincing.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17904 times:

Congested? I dunno if that word is accurate. It's certainly busy, but it can expand, unlike many (CDG/LHR/etc.)


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineCol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2129 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17828 times:

Read the whole sad story. He is not even planning for the aircraft, too much money for little reward. Very sad comment from someone whom is in charge of the busiest airport in the world. Never mind there are plenty of other forward thinking airports out there.

User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1940 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17816 times:

Hmm... Wasn't Air France planning to fly the A380 to ATL?

Cheers!



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17779 times:


Any change will cost millions.

Unless they have surplus slots, then they need more runways or bigger aircraft.

A lot will depend on what Delta do.


User currently offlineBiggles From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 459 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17767 times:

"Ben DeCosta said the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport is not approved to land the A380 and that he does not think the market would support the double-decker "superjumbo" jet, which is capable of carrying 500 to 800 passengers."

I take it this gentleman has some marketing research to back this statement up ?? And exactly what market is he talking about ??
Don't the airlines decide on what aircraft to operate,not an airport manager ??

If Boeing builds a larger B747 I guess that won't be able to operate in ATL either ??

The operational problems due to the size makes sense , but the marketing
comments are odd.




User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 11 hours ago) and read 17758 times:

"Wasn't Air France planning to fly the A380 to ATL?"

Apparently, not anytime soon. He may be right in the near term, there aren't that many, if any 744s serving ATL as it is.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17726 times:

Biggles:

Marketing research? He runs the airport. I'm sure he knows by heart what sort of traffic levels go in and out of there, and he probably knows pretty well what they will be like in the future.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineBristolFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17705 times:

This is really messed up (wanted to use a different wors there but the a.net editors may not have liked it). It smacks of protectionism to me, this guy trying to protect Boeing from the competition by not allowing Airbus to fly there.

Well in a few years the A380 is gaining popularity and being used extensively he'll be kicking himself for doing this. And if he isn't kicking himself, I'll kick him!

BF



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17773 times:

It smacks of protectionism to me

Exactly what I thought, but I didn't want to start another US vs EU war.
It reminds me terribly the story of the Concorde.
But this time, the project can survive without a full free entrance in the US (hopefully).


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17612 times:

"Well in a few years the A380 is gaining popularity and being used extensively he'll be kicking himself for doing this. And if he isn't kicking himself, I'll kick him!
"


Seems to me like he's making a reasonable business decision, why should the taxpayers of Atlanta subsidize improvements that have no current or mid-term foreseeable use? They can always make the improvements if and when the market conditions make them necessary.

[Edited 2005-02-01 14:32:54]

[Edited 2005-02-01 14:33:27]

User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17487 times:

AF has never planned to fly the A380 to ATL.

N328KF
CDG is one of the very few major HUB in Europe with a great capacity of expansion, unlike FRA or LHR.


User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 17437 times:

Hmmmm, why does this remind me on the Concorde "battle" at JFK?
IMO it's childish and he thinks from 12 till noon.




signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineTrent900 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17409 times:

If the airlines can't fly to ATL I'm sure they will choose another airport that can handle the aircraft. They will loose some business but not much.

T.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17408 times:

Wow this will really rain on some of these ATL-A380 proponents that are so passionate on this board.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineSjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17407 times:

How many B744 does ATL get ? Not many I am sure, ATL has enough capacity and is a domestic hub above all.

Sjoerd



Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17405 times:

Isn't Atlanta one of the most congested airport in the world ?
Considering the traffic, "it would cost millions" is probably not very convincing.


Absolutely ATL is highly congested, but your line of thinking still doesn't work. ATL is pretty much maxed out as it stands today. The A380 will actually make things far worse. The main reason is that the taxi-way and ground side facilities limitation severely limit which portions of the airfield it has access to. Therefore, you either have to move a whole lot of other traffic or make the A380 wait until the other traffic moves on its own accord (The A380 would be the one who waited).

Further, there are only a few routes out of Atlanta that could possibly support an A380. This may change in the far future, but for the foreseeable future it won't. Three that come to mind are ATL-MCO, ATL-LGW, and ATL-CDG. The problem is in most cases the reduction in frequency that would be required would actually significantly shrink the market. Furthermore, the 5 or 6 A380s that would fill the market would not significantly effect the ability of the airport to handle more traffic. If you want to know just look at the distributions of aircraft in and out of ATL.

Seems to me like he's making a reasonable business decision, why should the taxpayers of Atlanta subsidize improvements that have no current or mid-term foreseeable use? They can always make the improvements if and when the market conditions make them necessary.

This would be sensible except for the fact that Atlanta taxpayers don't directly support the airport. The airport is actually an operating profit entity. Capital improvements are finance through user fees and Federal $, which incidentally are payed out of the aviation trust fund, which is also supported by user fees and taxes.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17312 times:

"IMO it's childish and he thinks from 12 till noon."

Why exactly is it childish? Why spend millions for something that has no current or forseeable use.

How is this at all comparable to Concorde? The opposition to the Concorde was primarily by environmentalists on the grounds of noise polution, etc. It had nothing to do with the cost of airport improvements/modifications to accommodate its size.


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17253 times:
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ATL might be congested and the busiest airport in the world, but most of this heavy traffic is domestic with a sprinkling of international flights. And those few international flights by AF, DL, BA, LH are not even 747 traffic, they are point to point 777/A340 capacity. ATL is a second tier US destination for Euro majors, much like DTW, BWI or DFW, and i doubt if ever LH or AF will send A380's there. LAX, JFK, ORD, MIA and SFO are A380 destinations.





In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6791 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17231 times:

ATL would probably see 1 or 2 at most A380 a day... why should they bounty up the millions for upgrades or renovations for that? I'm sure the ATL Authority would rather see 2 744/340 than 1 A380. What's the likelyhood that any of the airlines out of ATL will order the 380? DL would get the 787.. FL would get the 787.. neither would get the 380 cause they don't do high quantity/low frequency routes.. if the quantity increases, the frequencies increases.. that is the way the US air carriers do it...


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7313 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17212 times:

ATL has zero 747 scheduled passenger movements daily at the airport.




The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 17179 times:

Talking about places that might see the A-380, is JFK, LAX, SFO, ORD and MIA ready to handle the monster, or do they need upgrades???
As for JFK, if U think the amount of 747´s that go there daily I think they can easily handle the 380, don´t know about runways etc.

And other places, like LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, SYD are those places ready for the A-380???

AS for Brazil, TAM already stated that hardly any airport here could handle the thing, not without upgrades in GRU and GIG.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7816 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 17032 times:

Pholligsworth

If the airport is maxed out already, are they happy with zero growth or are they going to increase capacity in some way.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5209 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 8 hours ago) and read 16989 times:

1st of all--its not maxed out--the airlines that have ordered the A380 don't even fly 747s to ATL. So it'll be quite sometime before an A380 is thought of serving ATL in pax roles.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
25 Phollingsworth : If the airport is maxed out already, are they happy with zero growth or are they going to increase capacity in some way. 1st of all--its not maxed out
26 Boeing7E7 : Very sad comment from someone whom is in charge of the busiest airport in the world. Never mind there are plenty of other forward thinking airports o
27 Post contains images LUV4JFK : ATL probably would never see an A380 anyway for passenger traffic so he is right in his thinking. ATL isn't the world's busiest passenger airport beca
28 Avek00 : "If the airlines can't fly to ATL I'm sure they will choose another airport that can handle the aircraft. They will loose some business but not much."
29 Avek00 : ATL is certainly busy, but it is *nowhere* near as "congested" on a relative basis as LHR, NRT, or even EWR for that matter. Therefore, there is no co
30 A350 : I think we should not take this too serious. After all, if the runways and taxiways can cope with the 744, the 773ER and the A346, they should also be
31 Post contains links and images Hartsfieldboy : Here's a link to the rest of the article: http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=54185 First, ATL doesn't even have any commercial 7
32 Ckfred : ORD is looking into widening some of the taxiway exits that will accomodate the A380, but the improvements are primarily focused on the A340-600 and t
33 Tom in NO : Ben DeCosta has done his homework. All us airport operators pay lots of money to have marketing studies done, complete with growth projections, route
34 Post contains images Babybus : As someone said, it's not up to an airport manager to say what airline flies what aircraft into the airport where he works. I think he really meant th
35 N1120A : >Unless they have surplus slots, then they need more runways or bigger aircraft.A lot will depend on what Delta do.
36 Tnsaf : ATL is not challenged for capacity to serve hub to hub international routes. Throwing an A380 at Atlanta will not deal with the congestion caused by t
37 777STL : "This is really messed up (wanted to use a different wors there but the a.net editors may not have liked it). It smacks of protectionism to me, this g
38 N1120A : >What invested interest does the management of ATL have in protecting Boeing?
39 JBirdAV8r : "This is really messed up (wanted to use a different wors there but the a.net editors may not have liked it). It smacks of protectionism to me, this g
40 DAYflyer : There are very few USA airports that will ever see an A-380; JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, MCO, DFW, SEA, DEN and that's about all; perhaps MIA later. ATL is a
41 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ATL is a US hub only without real Intl traffic. So I guess the 40+ international destinations served nonstop from ATL are a illusionary corporate cons
42 Drerx7 : DFW won't see the A380 unless AA orders it--"perhaps MIA later" MIA will be one of the early airports to see the A380. out of JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, MCO,
43 RJ111 : What about PHL, BOS and IAD with VS or LH? Maybe not at first but traffic is expected to grow remember.
44 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : but it can expand, unlike many (CDG/LHR/etc.) Not quite sure where you get that from... legal wrangling aside, CDG is extremely expandable.
45 Flyer732 : "ATL has zero 747 scheduled passenger movements daily at the airport." Korean has a 747 in here mixed with the 777. Of course in 747 movements (pax an
46 Leelaw : Of course in 747 movements (pax and freight) we have Korean, JAL, Lufthansa, Global Supply Systems, Cargo Airlines, Atlas, Polar, Evergreen, Martinair
47 Spinzels : There is no 747 traffic there and the biggest regular visitors are 777. That’s not quite true, there is very frequent 747 traffic into ATL in the f
48 Aa777jr : I think AF first A380 route is CDG-YUL, could be wrong. Also, I don't see a need to fly the A380 into the US farther than a coastal city, ie EWR, JFK,
49 Beaucaire : to those who might have hidden protectonistic -feelings in the US -please be advised that about 40% of any build A380 are from USA made components,sof
50 N328KF : Beaucaire: How many times must it be explained to you...there is insufficient demand for an A380 into ATL. Would you like to get angry at MDW because
51 Spinzels : Of course in 747 movements (pax and freight) we have Korean, JAL, Lufthansa, Global Supply Systems, Cargo Airlines, Atlas, Polar, Evergreen, Martinai
52 Post contains images Airbazar : I'm curious which is going to last longer: Mr. DeCosta's job or the A380 landing at ATL? That sounds like an awfuly narrow minded comment for someone
53 N328KF : How is it narrowminded to say, "Nobody we know wants to fly the A380 here, and we don't see a market for it, so why should we spend the money?" It jus
54 AAgent : I wonder if Mr. DeCosta owns any shares of stock in Boeing? (O.K., that's a joke for the Airbus fans.) Perhaps Mr. Decosta simply believes that, since
55 DAYflyer : Then again, it is the south A little biased and narrowminded yourself...... aren't you?
56 Bhill : I fail to see what the big deal is about this issue, wheather it be in the US or anywhre else for that matter. This issue about infrastucture capacity
57 Ken777 : Instead of looking just at ATL take some time to look at the current US economic situation and try to guess where the money will come from. While some
58 Airgeek12 : I can actually understand why he would not want the A380 in there for a while. I live in JAX so I'm almost always going through Atlanta-Heartsfield. O
59 Tom in NO : While some major airports will spend the money to accommodate the 380 you can be sure that they will charge a landing fee that will recover those cost
60 Atmx2000 : Airbazar, For an American you seem to be pretty ignorant about Atlanta, both the people and the nature of the traffic at the airport.
61 AADC10 : What would Hartsfield have to do to accommodate the A380? Is the current runway lengthening program sufficient for an A380? I would imagine that ATL w
62 777STL : "to those who might have hidden protectonistic -feelings in the US -please be advised that about 40% of any build A380 are from USA made components,so
63 Post contains images Trijetman : Mr. DeCosta maybe right; after all, ATL isn't going to be an important A380 destination. Even with Coca Cola and CNN together Atlanta isn't nearly as
64 N328KF : You know, there is more in Atlanta than Coca-Cola and CNN. UPS, Home Depot, Rubbermaid, etc. UPS certainly does have an effect on the world economy th
65 FCKC : Without entering an America vs Europe war , rather than "classical" A vs B war , it will be the third time Europeans products get problem with America
66 Airbazar : No one is doing anything to accomodate the A380 because they don't have to. Simple as that. Every major airport in the US can accomodate the A380. So
67 Post contains links PHLBOS : After all, if the runways and taxiways can cope with the 744, the 773ER and the A346, they should also be ok for the A380. I believe that a lot of peo
68 N328KF : FCKC: I bet you $10 the Atlanta airport boss isn't even originally from Atlanta, Georgia, or the South. I bet he's a Yankee. And I bet much of his sta
69 777STL : "Without entering an America vs Europe war , rather than "classical" A vs B war , it will be the third time Europeans products get problem with Americ
70 Bjg231 : I think all of these blind airbus lovers are right. Why shouldn't Atlanta spend millions of dollars on airport improvements when they have less than a
71 Daedaeg : The term "protectionist" seems to be such an abused term. Who is protecting whom? I'm just not getting it. Are airport managers on the payroll of airc
72 Airbazar : So if they shouldn't, and if they won't as stated by Mr. DeCosta, why even talk about it? If it's such a non issue, why bring it up? I know why. Becau
73 Deltadude : isn't there an option for the A380 wings to fold...wouldn't that solve the problem except for the loading/unloading issues?
74 Leelaw : The 777 was originally designed to incorporate this option, none of the customers opted for it. I'm not aware of it being available on the A380.
75 L.1011 : If he is a good administrator he knows that he must look to the future and the A380 is part of the future so he needs to accomodate it. If he doesn't
76 Jderden777 : if an airline wants to fly the A380 into an airport that currently cannot handle it then i think that airline should have to pay for the upgrades nece
77 B777fan : Protectionist? This isn't about how successful the A380 will be or if an organized opposition is trying its hardest to make it fail. It is about what
78 Deltaamtrak058 : I was looking fwd. to seeing the A380 in atl but oh well...How much runway will the 380 use? Doesn't ATL already have enough rwy. space for the plane?
79 Lightsaber : Just one note: Most of the runways in the US were built for 1,000,000lbm. The FAA's guidelines were found to be off, hence why most US airports max ou
80 Post contains images Lehpron : >>"Ben DeCosta said the Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport is not approved to land the A380 and that he does not think the market would
81 Elwood64151 : Exactly what I thought, but I didn't want to start another US vs EU war. It reminds me terribly the story of the Concorde. Concorde wasn't a protectio
82 Hartsfieldboy : When DeCosta refers to "market" he is talking about the Atlanta area air transportation market, not the world air market. Context, people, context. Be
83 Flying_727 : Someone said something about "its not the airport manager or the airport that gets to decide which airlines bring it which airplanes" Um, I think they
84 Avek00 : Truth be told, I'd be MORE worried if the airport manager decided to waste millions in scarce capex on modifying the airport for a plane that would co
85 FCKC : 777STL I am not arrogant at all.Maybe what i have written in other threads can make you thinking of this feeling , but sorry to tell you , you are wro
86 PIA777 : That is kind of hard to believe that the Airbus 380 will not be coming to ATL. They are building a new International terminal and I don't think they w
87 Atmx2000 : I also would like to point out that any American planes didn't get problems to be accepted in the Europeans or Asian or African airports , which is n
88 Zvezda : If I were running ATL, there is no way I would spend more than, say, $100,000 to accomodate the A380 and I'm sure that wouldn't suffice. The only airp
89 PA110 : Lord almighty! If you can't understand the airport manager's arguements, I have to wonder if you can even balance your own checkbook!!! Listen up you
90 Vatveng : Doesn't any "heavy" shut down a runway for a few minutes anyway? Atlanta doesn't have that many heavies compared to their total traffic, mostly FL and
91 Flying_727 : PA110 Welcome to my respected users list flying_727
92 Post contains images LUV4JFK : Does Delta have the 380 on order? NO! Does AirTran have the 380 on order? NO! Then DeCosta could care less. He already knows nobody else will operate
93 Sllevin : If the demand comes, ATL can build for it. But this is not a game of "build it and they will come." Like all decisions, this is one that can and will
94 Klkla : The reason for all this is simple: There would be no return on the investment to this particular airport because it's unlikely any airline would be fl
95 Jasepl : Regardless of what DeCosta has to say. why would any of the 380 customers want to fly it to ATL in the first place? ATL's probably better connected to
96 BlackKnight : It is so sad that there are those who seem controlled by emotions. Some of the comments above are simply biased and if we where talking about differen
97 Post contains images DAirbus : Just to add my $0.02, just because ATL is not going to spend money to upgrade the airport to accommodate the A380, it does not mean that they do not h
98 777STL : You have to look at this from a financial perspective. There is no point in pissing away millions of dollars to accommodate an airplane that may or m
99 Tu154m : Ben DeCosta and everyone in ATL government is/are a bunch of goons. ATL doesn't even get 747 passenger service(OK-KE flies a few in from time to time)
100 SuperDash : Mr. DeCosta, do you want to come work for my airport? You are a breath of fresh air in the age of airports spending money as fast as it can be printed
101 N79969 : The suggestion that this is a way of protecting Boeing is just beyond dumb. How would Boeing benefit if the entirely unrelated Atlanta airport fails t
102 RayChuang : Because ATL is not as slot-constrained as airports in Europe, I don't think you'll see the A380-800 from AF flying the CDG-ATL route anytime soon. We'
103 ATLhomeCMH : Yet another reason why a super-jumbo that would force many airports to do millions of dollars of renovations to accomodate is really stupid idea. Go A
104 Col : Firstly the argument on the strategies of Boeing and Airbus. Just maybe, they are both right, can you imagine that? ATL. Fine, they don't want to plan
105 AirFrnt : A lot of people who clearly have never been to ATL are posting here alleging conspiracies that can be disproven from simply looking at the airport. AT
106 Drerx7 : "DL is dominated by 757 and older MD90s" You mean MD88s. Col--have you read the previous threads that have already provided sufficient reasons why ATL
107 Col : Drerx7, Yep, hence my comments. I think an airport as large as ATL, should at least plan a couple of gates with 380 capability. I use ATL regularly, t
108 Avek00 : Why should ATL plan for something that: a) probably won't come to ATL at all, and b) if present, will cause MORE problems for the airport/airline than
109 Drerx7 : There are no more 747 pax services into ATL. SAA is no longer apart of SkyTeam and is rumoured to be leaving ATL because of so. The cost outweigh the
110 Col : This argument is actually done. As ATL Management have said they will not prepare for it, then Avek00 your probably is a definately won't come. Shame,
111 PA110 : This thread is starting to get stupid. How many different ways are there to say it? None of the airlines serving ATL have expressed any desire whatsoe
112 Vatveng : How many different ways are there to say it? There are as many ways to say it as there are people who read the thread starter and then jump to the bot
113 Schipholjfk : > Sebolino > It smacks of protectionism to me > Exactly what I thought, but I didn't want to start another US vs EU war. It is the dumbest thing I hav
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