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The Crash Of Flight 191 On Tv  
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17697 times:

Just to let everybody know the story of the crash of AA flight 191 is on History Channel right now till 10:30 eastern time.


Hawk44


Never under estimate the power of US
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5122 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17610 times:

It wont be on till 9PM on the West Coast! I cant wait to see it! The previews looked awesome. There is also something coming on after it. I cant remember what it is called, but it is about plane wrecks. Good night for TV. Americas Most Wanted will have to wait till next week~! LOL!


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17576 times:

It wont be on till 9PM on the West Coast! I cant wait to see it! The previews looked awesome. There is also something coming on after it. I cant remember what it is called, but it is about plane wrecks. Good night for TV. Americas Most Wanted will have to wait till next week~! LOL!

Broken Wings is on right after the Flight 191 program which so far is very good. They are using nice computer generated recreations. I thought this was perfect timing with all the trash talking about NW DC-10's earlier today.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineAirgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17532 times:

Awesome..thanks for the tip/info. *tunes in*

I also watched the TWA flight 800 investigation thing on the History channel. It was very good, and inspring for me to read the book on it; First Strike, which has so far turned out to be a great book.

geek


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5122 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 17521 times:

Agree with you on the TWA 800. It was very interesting, and I enjoyed the minute by minute account of the accident. History should keep pumping aviation related stuff for us!


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17431 times:

Hawk44,

There has been too much trash talking about the DC10. I liked the DC10. It is a shame that it got a bad rap. Mostly due to crashes like this. Which was totally AA fault for doing a repair so badly in an attempt to save money. They caused the engine and pylon to seperate from the wing. I will be watching!


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17385 times:

That show was tell it like it is....It's the third time I saw it and it rivets me to the television set every time. Like I posted a few weeks ago, the probable cause was the loss rapid of hydraulics which caused the leading edge slats to retract which caused the left wing to lose lift and ...the rest is history. the separation of the engine triggered the event but as stated in the show, did not cause the plane to come down. Engines as designed to "break away", per the broadcast....and my antiquated library
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5122 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17355 times:

I love the DC10. I flew them over 20 times, and I enjoyed them every time. First Class was great in them too. My first DC10 ride was on American. It was my first wide body too. I remember watching the takeoff on the movie screen. What a thrilling experience!

I also met Al Haynes, the captain on UA 232. What a story he has. He offers free talks on the crash. If you get the chance, he is one to listen to. It was about an hour, and by the time he finished his presentation, I was ready to salute him. Great speaker! He justs asks for a donation to Little League.

http://www.aviationspeakers.com/



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17345 times:

Isitsafenow,

Are you kidding me? Why did the plane lose hydraulic fluid? Because the engine and pylon ripped off a piece of wing! Yes engines are designed to break away but not when the plane is rotating at full power with the slats helping to increase lift and not while taking a piece of wing with it. This due to the fact the engine and pylon went up and over the wing and simply did not just break away. AA caused those people to die and nothing else.


User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17309 times:

I have not flown on a DC10 however when I was younger I did get to fly on a MD-11 with DL into ATL can't remember where I was coming from either LGA or EWR but I do remember the MD-11 was heading west after the stop in ATL.

I wish NW still flew the DC10 domestically. Are they the only US carrier that currently flys the DC10 besides FedEx?

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17289 times:

No, Im not kidding you. I said the Probable Cause....understand the term and why the FAA uses it in investigation reports.

F9ANIMAL.....I met Captain Haynes in Chicago in the early 90's. What a guy! He and I talked about his career and the planes he flew with United. He was very likeable. Hey come to think of it, he asked me to commit a few bucks to Little League, too...how bout that! Heck, being a former coach, I couldn't resist him.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17273 times:

Isitsasfenow,

I understand the term, it is a total copout shared by the NTSB and FAA. I am glad the metallurgist found the stress on the bolts that connected the pylon to the wing was caused by an improper repair. It is a shame AA caused MD to suffer the way they did after all 10s were grounded and the fallout to follow. A total shame.


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17229 times:

NIV69 I agree with ya....That Incident should have NEVER happen...like the Alaska Air thing off the Calif. coast..That's another one that really bothers me.

The airlines also got beat up pretty good($$$$$$$) when the DC 10's were parked. All those pax and nothing to put them on.....
keep smilin...
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17193 times:

Actually the loss of the engine and retraction of the LH Slats didn't cause the crash either, If you remember from that same show, the NTSB stated that the route cause was the incorrect speed setting and climb out angle after the loss of the engine as set in the AA DC-10 procedures. Had the crew maintained a standard speed rate and climb angle they would have been ok. Their speed was too low and with the loss of lift from the retracted LH slat, that wing stalled and they crashed.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17172 times:

Isitsafenow,

Amen. I despise AA for many reasons and this is sure one of them. They were totally at fault and should have been ashamed of themselves. I believe I have this documentary on tape, if I remember correctly one of the AA mechanics committed suicide after the investigation revealed it was maintenance that caused the crash. At least one person had some honor.

Let us again remember the victims. This air disaster is still the deadliest in US history.

R.I.P.

P.S. I love the fact that AA wouldn't fly that one victim to the scene and made him pay. Way to go AA!!  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineCOAMiG29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 515 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 17147 times:

thanks alot for the info its 1129 and im in texas so i missed the show however i have my ultamate tv set to record it at 1200, ill prb watch it then.

--COAMiG29--



If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
User currently offlineCOAMiG29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 515 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17130 times:

Username: NIKV69
From United States, joined Jan 2004, 1973 posts, RR: 13
Reply: 14

Posted Sun Feb 6 2005 06:21:33 UTC+1 and read 25 times:
Isitsafenow,

Amen. I despise AA for many reasons and this is sure one of them. They were totally at fault and should have been ashamed of themselves. I believe I have this documentary on tape, if I remember correctly one of the AA mechanics committed suicide after the investigation revealed it was maintenance that caused the crash. At least one person had some honor.

Let us again remember the victims. This air disaster is still the deadliest in US history.

R.I.P.

P.S. I love the fact that AA wouldn't fly that one victim to the scene and made him pay. Way to go AA!!

IT IS NOT HONORABLE to kill yourself for making a mistake. i know that AA was at fault but if they knew that the quicker engine replacement would lead to this problem i assure you they never would have permitted it. as terrible as it is sometimes safety rules have to be written in blood. i understand your anger but please be reasonable

--COAMiG29--






If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17080 times:

All those pax and nothing to put them on.....

Safe, just a general knowledge question, was it all that bad in general terms? I recall a friend was flying SFO-IAD a week after the grounding on UA and was concerned, but they ended up using a DC-8 stretch, while I followed a week later to the east on TWA, with one empty seat on the 707 going and only about a 3/4 load out of JFK on the return with an L-1011. They were the first transcon flights for either of us alone, and I remember our thinking he stood a good chance of getting rescheduled, but didn't.

I wish NW still flew the DC10 domestically.

Unless Hawaii renounced statehood and seceded from the Union, they still do.  Smile



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17046 times:

COAMiG29,

It is thinking like yours which leads to people dying like the ones of flight 191. You can't just play stupid when it comes to this. AA knew that MD's procedure for an engine change was crystal clear. To remove the engine from the pylon and then the pylon from the wing. Yet good ol' AA decided to get a forklift and cut corners by trying to remove the whole thing. Well they left the forklift bearing the weight of the engine and pylon. Which it couldn't handle. Thus the plyon sustains a crack as a result. After a number of cycles the crack gets worse till it gives way during rotation of flight 191. The rest is history. You see MD gives a maintenance recommendation for a reason.

Yes it is honorable. Very honorable. This person couldn't live with himself after he realized he was responsible for a huge loss of life. Much like the mechanic who did the improper repair on the JAL 747 rear bulkhead who also killed himself.

With commercial aviation pilots and mechanics hold thousands of lives in the palms of their hands. Saying AA made a mistake is not good enough pal. You have to think of human life, not the bottom line.

[Edited 2005-02-06 07:05:38]

User currently offlineUsAirways16bwi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1004 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 17019 times:

i guess its a re-run cuz its just after 1am here eastern time and im watching it now. i gotta say that picture that a witness took of the DC-10 on its side was VERY graphic and scary. i cant begin to imagine what the pax were experiencing at that moment. they knew what was going on in the last few moments. RIP

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16999 times:

That picture happens to be probably the most famous in commercial aviation history. I remember it was on the front page of every paper. I think the News had it across the whole page if memory serves me right. That had to be a horrible 30 seconds or so once that engine and pylon separated from the wing.

R.I.P.


User currently offlineYhmfan From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16973 times:

A little off topic but here is a bit of trivia:
There was also a flight 191 for Delta (L1011) that crashed in DFW in August 1985.
Not that I am superstitious or anything but I think I will avoid any other flight 191's !!!!



If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
User currently offlineCOAMiG29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 515 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16964 times:

since hindsight is 20/20 it is easy to see how easily this crash could have been avoided. however, the AA and CO mechanics (yes co also did this maintence procedure) did npt know that cutting corners like this one would lead to a crash. if they knew they never would have cut corners.

maybe to you it is honorable to kill yourself for realizing that you made a mistake but it would be much better to be responsible about it and help prevent accidents in the future. this discussion is now clearly a matter of opinion which does not need to be discoussed in the forum. please feel free to e-mail me at matt@mfpltd.com i am open to your point of view but i do not consider aa to have intentionaly killed the pax.

RIP all those involved with AAL-191

--COAMiG29--



If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
User currently offlineCOAMiG29 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 515 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16956 times:

i would also like to add that the plane could have been saved if there was a backup stickshaker, if the f/o knew they were stalling he could have pulled out but by the time he found out what was happening it was too late.


If Continental had a hub at DFW with nonstop flights I would always fly them, unfortunantely good things take time.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16926 times:

COAMiG29,

Save your email. I have no time to discuss this with someone who would condone doing improper repair to save money at the expense of countless lives only to say that AA didn't know this would happen. You thinking is scary. MD was against this repair and AA knew it. Yet they did it anyway and not only killed those people on the plane but MD along with it. I know CO used the same method to replace the engine and they are lucky they didn't suffer the same fate.

As for the mechanic who committed suicide staying alive to help prevent further accidents? LOL

He could have done that. By doing the repair properly the first time!!

And please don't try to save AA anymore with this stick shaker argument. I don't think there is a pilot in the world who could have saved that aircraft. In a very short period of time those pilots suffered a catastrophic engine failure and structure damage, loss of hydraulics and instrument operation. With the weight they were carrying there was no chance of saving the AC. The fault lies with AA. Nothing else.


25 SA006 : Any ideas what time this will be on GMT? -SA006
26 EMBQA : Yet good ol' AA decided to get a forklift and cut corners by trying to remove the whole thing. ...and so did: United, Western and Continental and seve
27 Richie87 : I saw the Flight 191 docu on History last night... it was pretty good, thorough, and made the facts of the crash very understandable. It was also rath
28 F9Animal : How about that poor guy that lost his mom and dad in the 1950's on AA flight number 1 that crashed into Flushing Bay in NY. AA screwed him back then,
29 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>With commercial aviation pilots and mechanics hold thousands of lives in the palms of their hands. Saying AA made a mistake is not good enough pal.
30 QQflyboy : Hmmm... I read this post thinking I would find info about the show and a general discussion about the crash. Some forget that accidents happen, as sad
31 NIKV69 : OPNLguy, I never said anything about killing anyone, I said guy who took his own life did the honorable thing. You can't sit there and say AA didn't k
32 Isitsafenow : QQ..having knowledge of forktrucks(I have three in my plant) the AA procedure at Tulsa was workable even though it was a short cut. The problem was th
33 EMBQA : NIKV69- I find it funny that your trying to sound like an expert on aircraft maintenance, when the closest thing you've done to maintenance on an airc
34 NIKV69 : Isitsafenow, No, the forklift was not workable and totally dangerous. Even the crane from overhead that I believe CO used was not a safe alternative.
35 Isitsafenow : United used the crane, per TV show.
36 NIKV69 : EMBQA, My dad was a mechanic for EAL for 20 years so I am not totally ignorant to this topic and you don't have to be an expert to see that AA screwed
37 Cactus739 : NIKV69...... Sorry to disagree, but doing the "honorable thing" would have been stepping up to face the music for what happened. Killing oneself is ha
38 Post contains images OPNLguy : Cactus739, Given the obvious emotionalism demonstrated in his posts, I don't think that anything you or I or EMBQA or anyone else can say to him is go
39 Post contains images Cactus739 : OPNL... I know. I was working on that reply for a while (keep getting dragged away at work). Sometimes you just wish you could type "get your head out
40 F9Animal : The stick shaker was optional. MD offered it on just the captains side, and they offered it on both the First Officers and Captains side. The one on A
41 Isitsafenow : F9...and when the MD 11 was designed, take a wild guess how the hydraulic lines were engineered on that plane? safe
42 NIKV69 : You guys are funny, I did not say AA killed anyone. Please stick to the facts, and the facts are that AA went against the company's guidelines in maki
43 Accidentally : You kind of seem to believe American is the one and only airline that would ever think of altering maintenance procedures to save time, to be safer, e
44 A332 : Considering this incident happened over 25 years ago, is it really necessary to get all worked up about it? It was a terrible tragedy, but we can't fo
45 AirTran737 : Can anyone tell me what role Joe Leonard played in the role of 191? His nickname around the industry is Forklift Joe, and as an AirTran employee I hav
46 Psa53 : A great plane, downed by the media splash of a crash.American,Air New Zealand and Western crashes not the fault of the aircraft. I forget the guys nam
47 NIKV69 : Accidentally, Have you been reading this thread? I know that other carriers used the same practice and I never said AA knew this would kill people, wh
48 ANNOYEDFA : NIKV69: Um actually if you trace back to all the deadly accidents with the DC-10 it was McDonald Douglas going cheap on the jet plain and simple. I al
49 QQflyboy : Perhaps I was too subtle before. Since we're trying to be more accurate here, it would be more accurate to refer to DC's procedures, rather than MD's
50 Lazybones : Spot on ANNOYEDFA, I've flown on the Ghana Airways DC10 many times. I have to say I was glad to see the end of production of the MD11. Apart from both
51 Nwafflyer : Just went to the History Channel -- I'm central time here, 7:20 right now -- no movie or show about planes Yeah, I know, this post will be deleted, do
52 Cactus739 : Nwafllyer.... it was on last night.
53 Nwafflyer : Thanks, what a let down though
54 NIKV69 : Annoyedfa, Get your facts straight please! AA did know MD's recommendation for changing engines on the wing. Which specified engine removal from the p
55 ZOTAN : It wasnt all AA's fault. Douglas knwe what United, Contiental, and American where doing at the time and they didnt say a word. The FAA also didnt make
56 NIKV69 : Annoyedfa, Ok here's what I got. March 3rd, 1974 a DC10 crashed after a poorly designed cargo door failed in flight. 346 people dead. This is the only
57 NIKV69 : ZOTAN, No Kidding! That is because maintaining aircraft is the sole responsibility of the carrier. Not the manufacturer or the FAA.
58 BeechNut : The actual cause of the crash was...a sequence of avoidable events. Both the airline and MD were "at fault" IMHO. The crew was fairly blameless. Off t
59 NIKV69 : OMG.... Crashes are always caused by a single event. If AA didn't do this improper repair the engine and pylon wouldn't have separated from the wing.
60 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Crashes are always caused by a single event. Oh, pluheeze....
61 ANNOYEDFA : ZOTAN: Thank You!!!! MD KNEW! Thats why they are called the Death Cruiser and More Death 2.... I would never fly on one or let a family member. Period
62 NIKV69 : Annoyedfa, Not only does Zotan need to learn what he is talking about but you do as well. MD has NOTHING to do with how their planes are serviced. The
63 Gdjet16 : Hey NIKV69.... Dont forget the cargo door blowout over Winsor, Canada.. Luckely, no one was killed, but it did result in complete structural failure..
64 NIKV69 : Can't find anything on that incident over Winsor, do you have any links or documentation? As far as airdisaster.com is concerned just about all the cr
65 Post contains images GdJet16 : I dont have a link, as i read it in the book by Bobby Shaw, but it was piloted by Captin Bryce McCormick, and occured in 1972, on an AA flight from De
66 GdJet16 : Correction on my last post... the book was written by Gunter Endres.. Another good book that gives a great narritive of the incident (the Winsor one,
67 NIKV69 : On the Swissair flight from what I know (I have never really researched that crash at all) but a wire caused the insulation to catch fire. Not sure if
68 ANNOYEDFA : Just saw a DC-10 fly over and a few baby boomers ran screaming lol.... NIKV69....... THEY ARE J U N K. Just like the Airbus A-300 is junk..... JUNK JU
69 Post contains images COAMiG29 : NIKV69 i completely agree with your statement. the dc-10 and md-11 are very safe. in AA's case expedited maintence procedures did lead to the crash bu
70 COAMiG29 : Username: ANNOYEDFA From United States, joined Dec 2004, 132 posts, RR: 3 Reply: 68 Posted Mon Feb 7 2005 05:03:57 UTC+1 and read 0 times: Just saw a
71 Post contains images NIKV69 : COAMiG29, No stress, don't worry about it. We are just discussing the topic. I never said AA murdered anyone, though their carelessness toward proper
72 ZOTAN : COAMig29, I guess we don't need your opinions either. They are welcome in the pols and prefs forum.... As I said earlier the crash was not entirely AA
73 NIKV69 : ZOTAN, What you are saying is totally wrong! Please look into this topic, you will find that you are way off. MD told AA how to do the engine change.
74 COAMiG29 : ZOTAN: i have kept my opinion relevant to the topic unlike ANNOYEDFA the topic is about a plane crash and who is at fault not whether or not you like
75 MD80fanatic : The area of the wing leading edge (and several feet back from the LE) that ripped away just happens to be the area of the wing that is producing the m
76 Jacobin777 : Ok..on a weird note, I was watching American Justice (which are TRUE case stories) on A&E and The History Channel at the same time. On A&E, the (real)
77 Post contains images NIKV69 : Jacobin777, I saw that too!! AJ and Cold Case Files are my favorite shows! That was so weird. Hard to believe his wife kept quiet for so long but he d
78 Post contains images Jacobin777 : NIKV69..they are my FAVOURITE TV shows too!!!! I still think the mother should have told the police, even though it was COMPLTELY clear that she was l
79 Post contains images NIKV69 : Jacobin777, Welcome to my respected user list! Those shows kick ass! Bill Curtis is basically the only journalist I respect in this country. I think a
80 Post contains images Jacobin777 : NIKV69....got you on my list too... I completely agree with you on the Bill Curtis thing....I grew up in the north 'burbs of Chicago, and I ALWAYS wa
81 NIKV69 : I am with you Jacobin777, I lived in Chicago for a year and loved watching Bill Curtis. I wish all journalists could be like him. As for suicide I gue
82 Whlinder : Anyone know if/when this will be on again?
83 Argonaut : "it would be more accurate to refer to DC's procedures, rather than MD's procedures in the case of 191. The "M" in the MD wasn't a part of the equatio
84 Dogfighter2111 : I'm watching it right now. It's scary, i flew on the Monarch DC-10 twice. It looked as old as my granny. Dog
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