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A350 A Silly Idea?  
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3341 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6349 times:

With the B787 pushing airliner technology into a new era, does it make sense for Airbus to risk 5 billion euros or so to produce an A330 derivative aircraft that will trail behind Boeing's offer technologically, compromise A330 sales and possibly lose Airbus billions?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6298 times:

As has been said so many times before, and as the 737NG proves.... it doesn't always take a new design to successfully compete with another new design.


However, it can also be argued that Boeing's innovative technology may cause a gap to great for Airbus to overcome without a cleansheet design, were it all to live up to Boeing's optimum forecasts. Only time will tell.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

But it should probably also be said that there is a lot more room for performance and efficiency improvements on a large long haul jet than a small short haul jet. Also the 787 is pushing materials technology much further than the A320 did.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2445 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

It's probably the right thing for Airbus to do at this time; the greater expense an all-new design so soon after the huge A380 effort, along with periodic updates for other models, would stretch Airbus finances and likely also incur greater launch aid, a measure in dispute right now. Doing an all new airplane would also take longer to bring to market and Airbus didn't want Boeing to have too much of a headstart getting its plane to market. But, as ConcordeBoy and a recent Flight International editorial pointed out, there's risk in going the derivative route to try to outpoint a clean-sheet design. Boeing's own problems attempting to do this against newer Airbus models should be cause for some concern in Toulouse although, at this stage, they probably had no choice but to pursue this course. Indeed, only time will tell if it was the correct choice; the number of orders the A350 secures over the next few months prior to its expected mid-year formal launch may provide a reasonable barometer of how well it will actually do against the 787.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5933 times:

I see the A350 as a variation on a winning design like the 747-400 was to the 747 Classic. New avionics, slightly different wing, new engines, much more range, greater MTOW, better CASM, and generally a better aircraft in all respects. The family makes sense now - moving down the list in terms of capacity. (assuming that the A300/310/330/343 are all discontinued)
A389
A388
A346
A345
A359
A358

A321
A320
A319
A318

With the 757-200 sized gap in the middle there - its not difficult to see where the shorter range 787 orders are going to come from.

Makes you wonder if Airbus havent missed the bus (pardon the pun) on the 757-sized replacement. Could we see a stretched (and re-engined) A322 perhaps? Add winglets for range?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

I should think the R&D people of Airbus are in a far better position to determine what is and what is not necessary than any of us.  Smile


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

I said it makes you wonder Pearson - for what its worth i think theyve got it right (as anything thery produce in that size range will only ever be as good as and not better than the 787) - i certainly am not playing armchair CEO.

Im a commercial aviation business analyst by trade, which gives me some leeway to make opinions - but thats all they are mate, and thats all i was stating.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9834 posts, RR: 96
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5410 times:
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I wish Boeing well with the All Carbon Fibre aeroplane - no doubt that it is a step change in technology.

Having said that, given many of the advances in materials technology in other areas, can anyone out there provide informed commentary about the relativeperformance difference between Carbon fibre, the latest Al-Li alloys, GLARE etc?

Could an A350 made out of a combination of these latest materials have a suffucuently small gap in structural performance relative to the 787 to male other fsactors the primary consideration?

Astuteman


User currently offlineSU184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5318 times:

The details released so far from both manufacturers about the extensive use of composites in both designs make them almost piers in this aspect ( 787 will use more ), Shark tail fin for the 787 wouldn't make the great difference, Airbus is refining the aerodynamics too, so most of efficiency that's expected to give edge to Boeing is the bleedless engines, but with most of the aircraft's systems relying on electric power, there would be enormous generators required for normal electric power, anti-ice, airconditioning, brakes... What would be the requirements of the regulatory authorities for redundancy here, in all the designs till now, if a generator fails several actions are done including the shedding of high load items like the galleys, but here what will happen, can you lose an aircondtioning pack due to a generator fault, can anybody give some light here.

User currently offlineLazybones From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

SU184, I guess back-up generators come to mind but this also sheds light on another point. These all electric generators would surely need more power more weight etc, doesn't this eat into the overall efficiencies?? We might need oldAreoGuy for this one....

User currently offlineSU184 From Egypt, joined Feb 2004, 235 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

That is exactly what I was thinking of, to many backups and you end up with no big differences, and I don't think Aribus would go spend 5b$ to build a handicapped aircraft from day one...

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5226 times:

I should think the R&D people of Airbus are in a far better position to determine what is and what is not necessary than any of us.

Development groups misjudge and mistake configurations all the time.

can anyone out there provide informed commentary about the relativeperformance difference between Carbon fibre, the latest Al-Li alloys, GLARE etc?

Aluminum lithium alloys have been around for a while, but their application and complexity has been rising in the past few decades. The 744 made significant use of Al-Li alloys, but even newer (lighter) alloys are now available.

GLARE is a hybrid of aluminum and fiberglass. Large portions of the A380 fuselage are made of this material

Carbon laminate are strands of carbon fiber soaked in epoxy that are wound around a form, i.e. fuselage barrel, then autoclaved at very high temperature. The form is removed, creating the desired structure. Carbon can also be woven into a fabric, layered, then baked in a simmilar process. GE makes the GE90/GEnx fan with this method....


User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2536 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Well...look at it like this...in the old old days...companies would make planes and then the airlines would buy them...

as time goes on, the airlines and manuf. have molded into one, and they work together...im sure there are a couple of companies that are already planning flights with the A350 and although i havent seen it yet, a luanch customer etc etc, will all appear soon to the naked eye, business plans and actions are a LOT more detailed/complicated than just...let's make a plane guys..



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5188 times:

Airbus has no choice but to press ahead with the A350 - the A300/310/330 niche has proven to be the only niche where Airbus has consistently held an advantage over Boeing, and that would go completely down the pissoir if the 787 goes unchallenged.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

I guess back-up generators come to mind but this also sheds light on another point

That would be called the APU  Big grin

These all electric generators would surely need more power more weight etc, doesn't this eat into the overall efficiencies??

No they wouldn't. Bleedless systmes are more significantly lighter than bleed-air systems.

A bleed-air aircraft has heavily insulated ducts running through the airframe to divert the air. This will all be replaced by lightweight electrical wiring. Bleedless systems are also easier to maintain. The biggest savings are here (maintenance) and reduced fuel burn is a secondary benefit...


User currently offlineAirways6max From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4255 times:

I think that the A350 in its current form is an also-ran aircraft.

User currently offlineLazybones From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

DfwRevolution,

Are you suggesting just one APU would do the job of backup to the generators? Surely for the first all electric plane they would consider 2 APU's. Especially since the APU's are known to fail.

Airways6max, err what do you mean exactly??  Confused


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Are you suggesting just one APU would do the job of backup to the generators?

How should I know, I'm not a Boeing engineer. I would suspect so as most commercial aircraft only have a single APU.

Surely for the first all electric plane they would consider 2 APU's.

Why... they are used for ground power and rare emergency situations only? If there is a complete loss of electrical power, the aircraft will still have a ram-air turbine as another back-up, as all large commercial aircraft have. Boeing is also buidling the 787 to allow the APU to be replaced by a fuel cell at a later date.

Airways6max, err what do you mean exactly??

He means a stop-gap, i.e, not a long-term/competitive solution


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

the A300/310/330 niche has proven to be the only niche where Airbus has consistently held an advantage over Boeing

um... huh  Confused


User currently offlineGreaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

the A300/310/330 niche has proven to be the only niche where Airbus has consistently held an advantage over Boeing

I share with ConcordeBoy's HUH????????
The A300/310 is not a financial sucess. I dont think the program has even been repaid for, given the huge R&D costs to the A300. Ok, the A330 has an advantage, but not for long.
(p.s, if you're talking abt the A300's cargo cap., then, it does have an advantage over the 767..)



Now you're really flying
User currently offlineCORULEZ05 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Of course it makes sense.....it is called COMPETITION....Boeing comes out with something and Airbus has to compete with them....and vice versa....business mi amigo

User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

The 350 is most likely going to be a success, as Airbus has good sales strategies and loyal customers.
The only part about it is, that no design is nailed down. But hey, why nail down a design if your target (787) is not even a prototype yet?

The 350 could well become a 350NG, with different size options, trying to match Boeings 787-capacities. Plus, it will be a known fact how well the 787s new technologies will work out and they can focus on the important points.

It is a good way to announce a new product, but to wait until the competitor is out, to match exactly what is important to be matched.

So far, the 350 is only a sales stunt, but a good one.

It would be awesome to know, what managements all over the world are thinking now, if they consider 787 or 350... Big grin



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineCORULEZ05 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

"it is a good way to announce a new product, but to wait until the competitor is out, to match exactly what is important to be matched."

VERY TRUE....not only match but exceed it in some way...make it better than the competitor.......makes me wonder, will Boeing do the same with regards to the A380....develop something better.....


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

the 380 is a niche product.
The market is not big enough for 2 types.
Boeing will though jump in and fill the gaps Airbus leaves open.

The Concorde, SST, 380, ... all niche products.
The 380 sells fine, but it is open, how the future will be, it might be possible, that Airbus has reached close to max sales of the 380, or at least major sales figures are already down. Maybe I am wrong... We will see...

That is what Boeing will do.
Airbus has, IMO, major orders down for the 380, a number still to go, but major down, so why should Boeing waste years and Billions to come up with a plane that enters service in maybe 2012-2014 to compete with the 380? Does not make sense in a niche market.
They already have several 777 to match the 340 quite well and the 744 on top, including freighters (744F and 772LRF...) and there is still a gap which might be exactly a niche as the 380, or a big market, but it is very likely there is a market for something in between 380 and 744.

Also, Boeing will have to focus on a 737-thing, the 320 is quite old by now (which means, it can be easily targeted by a new product). So the 787 brings technology for the future. The 350 is just a match. If Boeing focusses on developing future technology and not just meeting today's demands, they will have some nice days coming up, some bottles of Moet will be opened here in the West Loop... Big grin



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3604 times:

So far, the 350 is only a sales stunt, but a good one.

it's all part of the strategy....
 Yawn


25 StickShaker : Its worth keeping in mind that the 350 will be built in 2 versions - one competing with the 787-9 (358) while the other competes with the 772 (359). A
26 Atmx2000 : It is also possible that Boeing will offer something that will be in the same class as the A359. They have hinted that they are considering it.
27 Avek00 : "the A300/310/330 niche has proven to be the only niche where Airbus has consistently held an advantage over Boeing I share with ConcordeBoy's HUH????
28 Art : Given that B787 seating has been increased to match that of the A350 and the B787 has bleedless engines / higher cabin humidity / higher cabin pressur
29 Lehpron : I honestly thought A350 was a bluff to make Boeing wet their shorts. Boeing would have thought that Aribus put all it's resources into A380 and their
30 Areopagus : Maybe the 350 will be like Abraham Lincoln's axe. An all-new cfrp wing now, with new engines and lighter materials substitution in the fuselage. Later
31 PlaneSmart : If B launch the 747ADV there will almost certainly be an A36 version of the A35, to put the squeeze on the 747 niche. At least 4 airlines have receive
32 Post contains images Aviationhack : the A300/310/330 niche has proven to be the only niche where Airbus has consistently held an advantage over Boeing. I'm not positive on the numbers, b
33 DfwRevolution : If B launch the 747ADV there will almost certainly be an A36 version of the A35, to put the squeeze on the 747 niche. May I ask how? There is no plaus
34 Sjoerd : At least 4 airlines have received information on possible A36 derivatives as part of their A35 presentations. Wouldn't these A360s have the size of th
35 DfwRevolution : Wouldn't these A360s have the size of the A346 ? Then how is it a 747-Adv competitor and not a 773ER competitor? The whole point of the 747-Adv is Boe
36 PlaneSmart : Key words - 'squeeze 747ADV niche'. Presume purpose would be to erode the size of the 747 niche, not occupy it, just as A38 could do similar at the up
37 StickShaker : So far, the 350 is only a sales stunt, but a good one. I honestly thought A350 was a bluff to make Boeing wet their shorts. Its interesting that some
38 StickShaker : Key words - 'squeeze 747ADV niche'. Presume purpose would be to erode the size of the 747 niche Wouldn't these A360s have the size of the A346 ? 747
39 Post contains images Lehpron : Let me reiterate by what I meant in this comment ("I honestly thought A350 was a bluff to make Boeing wet their shorts.") Like Airbus is pulling a rop
40 Avek00 : "But if the A350 ends up flying...well...ain't that a trip." The A350 basically HAS to fly at this point - if it doesn't, Airbus will only be a seller
41 Mham001 : A announced this morning they have picked Goodrich to produce the 350 landing gear. I'd bet they go through with it, rather than dicking their contrac
42 Lehpron : >>"Airbus will only be a seller of A320-family aircraft with an occasional 5 A380s rolling off the lot."
43 Ken777 : The 350 is a pretty good decision on A's part. They had to respond to the 787 in order to protect their 330 customer base. The 350 achieves that goal
44 Post contains images CON207 : The A350 is just a stretched version of the A330. I think Airbus would be quite happy to see Boeing reduced to just building aircraft engines. Just an
45 Gigneil : The A350 is just a stretched version of the A330. Christ, no, no it is not. The A350 is precisely the same dimensions as the existing A330 from front
46 Post contains images CON207 : Give it time N... its still on the "blueprint". Anything can happen between now and when it starts to actually take shape. Looking at the variants of
47 Greasespot : "I think Airbus would be quite happy to see Boeing reduced to just building aircraft engines." Ummm Boeing does not build any engines. Neither does Ai
48 Post contains images CON207 : GS! Anyone knows that!! In other words Airbus would probably be very happy if they were the only ones building aircraft. Both AB and BOEING make damn
49 Avek00 : ">>"Airbus will only be a seller of A320-family aircraft with an occasional 5 A380s rolling off the lot."
50 RayChuang : I think Airbus is designing the A350 for one reason: to replace the A340-200/300 series. And unlike the A342/A343, Airbus will use a new wing that wil
51 Art : Let's say the A350 gets the go ahead with anticipated performance then proven performance very close to that of the B787. Any guesses as to how many w
52 Lehpron : [If the 350 doesn't come to fruition or meet expectations, and the 787 does, Airbus won't be able to GIVE A300s/310s/330s/340s away, much less sell th
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