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AZ Flying High In South America  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6554 times:

AZ currently serves in LatAm the destinations of GRU, EZE and CCS with daily nonstop services.

GRU and EZE receive the B777-200 and CCS the B767-200/400. All destinations are served 5 x week from MXP and 2 x week from FCO.

Apart from AZ, direct flights LatAm-Italy are operated by RG (daily GIG-GRU-MXP, MD-11) and AR (EZE-FCO 4 x week, B747/A340). Argentina and Brazil have a substantial Italian community.

South America was one of the best performing markets for AZ in 2004. Could we see a possible AZ+AF/KL merger meaning that AZ would withdraw from these profitable destinations?

At least in South America AZ is flying high:


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75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMatt777 From Cayman Islands, joined Oct 2001, 503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6477 times:

"Argentina ... an substantial Italian community."
~50% of the population... That's why there is a large quantity of Visiting Friends and Relatives pax to/from Buenos Aires.

I'm one of them that takes the 14 hour flight down south once every year. Absolutely nothing to complain about. Premium video-on-demand IFE systems, excellent italian food, warm F/A.

A nice feature one the EZE-Italy is that after take-off, hot dinner is served at 8pm italian time, then four hous later at 8pm argentine time a full cold dinner is served for the argentines or for the ones that want som'more.  Big thumbs up
Breakfast before the early arrival. At the back of the plane, there's the Open Bar with all kind of snacks and drinks. For sure the AZ 777 is an excellent product.

ITA-CCS is served with the 767-300ER.

AZ most profitable intercontinental routes are the MXP-JFK, NRT and EZE; flights are full all year long, with significant Magnifica loads also during low seasons. With the introduction of some new India routes, Alitalia has eaten a large piece of the USA-India market via the MXP hub.

Ciao


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6431 times:

it is time that AZ reinstall the flights to BOG! they should install in first step a 3/7 operation from MXP. But who knows what the future will bring for AZ and there bad financial situation.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6408 times:

Matt777:

AZ now has its LatAm office in Sao Paulo. AZ's load factor to GRU in 2004 was 92%, which is extremely high. There were even rumours that AZ would increase flights to GRU from 7 to 10 x week, any information?

Also agree with you that AZ product to EZE and GRU is very good, and Magnifica (although not flat-seat) is of top quality.

However, with a possible merger AZ+AF/KL, the following destinations would overlap:

GRU: AF B777 and KL B777 and AZ B777
EZE: AF B747 and AZ B777
CCS: AF B747 and AZ B763

Any conditions they would split the market?

Rgs,


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6373 times:

why should the split the market? all these destinations are performing very well for AF/AZ/KL.

KL pulled out from EZE and CCS market some time ago and left the terain to AF.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineNamaskar From Switzerland, joined Dec 2004, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6374 times:

Hardiwv,

Why would they have to split the market? I think the 3X daily into GRU solidifies their presence in the huge EU-Brazil market and helps them to seve the different regions of Europe/onward destinations effectively. Independent of an alliance, it seems AZ can sustain the GRU and EZE markets very well on its own.

Might be a bit of apples and pears, but *Alliance has SK, LH, OS and NH all serving NRT - no splitting there. The market can sustain all of them.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6321 times:

Independent of an alliance, it seems AZ can sustain the GRU and EZE markets very well on its own.

Indeed, but I'm not speaking of an Alliance; I am referring to AF/KL/AZ as one merged airline. For example, it has been known that AF wanted KL to pull out of GRU so that AF could serve GRU with two daily flights. KL already pulled out of CCS, GIG and EZE leaving the market for AF.

And alliances can also split markets, about the same what IB and BA are doing in South America.

I think the 3X daily into GRU solidifies their presence in the huge EU-Brazil market

Indeed, it seems that GRU is consolidating its strong position in the market, receiving flight from almost all major European airlines. From what I can recall the last European carriers to pull out of GRU were Sabena (?) and SAS (in 1991/92, now codesharing with RG).

Rgs,


User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6263 times:

No way AZ would drop CCS. There's such a HUGE italian community here in Venezuela. Around 30% of my friends hold dual Italian-Venezuelan citizenship, that a huge example of the amount of Italians in this country.

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

also Venezuela is very common touristic destination for Italians.
I think in long terme AZ will increase the flight to a B.777



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

no way AZ would drop CCS. There's such a HUGE italian community here in Venezuela

Not so sure. This type of traffic is very low-yield, exactly what airlines are running away.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19199 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

But on a website I just looked on a return fare to CCS - in the low-season - non-stop with AZ from MXP was over £500. In the high-season, it showed as, again non-stop with AZ from MXP, as over £650. Hardly "low-yield" !!!

On AZ's website, the low-season one was 766 EUR and the high-season was 1438 EUR, both including tax and based on a week's stay.

[Edited 2005-02-08 15:48:19]


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4746 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

even with the tie-up, AZ won't pull from GRU especially. its one of their top markets along with EZE, NRT and JFK as someone pointed out. Plus, there's enough traffic to sustain daily flights from CDG and MXP if needed.

-g



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6226 times:

there is no one destination in south america that is really low-yield.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6198 times:

there is no one destination in south america that is really low-yield.

WHAT?????????

There are many low-yield destinations in South America, depending on markets and airlines serving the specific markets.

If all markets in South America were high-yield they would have the traffic that GRU and EZE have. Look at the pull out of BA from CCS and BOG, or KL in CCS. If yields are high, the destination can sustain various airlines, e.g. GRU and EZE, with their top product, e.g. B777.



User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2335 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6193 times:

AZ does not have a 762, or 764. They only have the 763, along with their 772,M11,S80, and A319,320,321.

AZ, will not drop GRU, or EZE, because most people are terminating in Italy. Making them take AF, to CDG will not make any sense, unless it is low-yield.

CCS, if anything would be the one to go if any would go. CCS, has a good amount of not just Italians, but Portuguese, and Spanish as well.



"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6180 times:

Ticket prices to CCS and BOG started from Europe beginning with 500 Euro for some very cheap tickets in very low season. Normal the cheaper Eco tickets beginn with 700 Euro return, is this really low-yield? you receive tickets from europe to the US-West coast what is a similar range to north southamerica beginning with 400 Euro.

For sure CCS and BOG are not the biggist markets for First-Class but this routes have good loadfactors in BuisnessClass on all carriers.

KL pulled out from CCS, but owner AF increased the service too daily B747-400!

And EZE loosed carriers in the last years, (LX, KL) Price nivel is little bit higher than to North Southamerica, ok but the way to Argentina is some thousend kilometers more than to Colombia or Venezuela.

regards
Avianca
regards
Avianca

[Edited 2005-02-08 16:10:52]

[Edited 2005-02-08 16:11:47]


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6138 times:

KL pulled out from CCS, but owner AF increased the service too daily B747-400!

But this still represents a reduction in total capacity of about 30-40%.

And add to that the pull out of BA.

And EZE loosed carriers in the last years, (LX, KL) Price nivel is little bit higher than to North Southamerica, ok but the way to Argentina is some thousend kilometers more than to Colombia or Venezuela

You cannot compare EZE and CCS. EZE is way more attractive and high-yield market. Indeed, LX and KL pulled out of EZE, but KL still operates there with partner JJ.

LH flies daily to EZE, CCS does not get daily fligihts;
AZ operates the B777 in EZE, CCS only gets the B767;
IB has two daily flights to EZE, CCS only one;
BA still remains strong in EZE; and pulled out of CCS;

And you have to add the flights of AR to Europe: MAD, FCO and LGW and MUC.

Ticket prices to CCS and BOG started from Europe beginning with 500 Euro for some very cheap tickets in very low season. Normal the cheaper Eco tickets beginn with 700 Euro return

In high yield and intensity market you get extremelly cheap economy tickets, e.g. to MEX, GRU and EZE; simply because airlies have their business/first class full. Again, instead of comparing a EUR500 x EUR700 economy ticket, compare the fares and number of seats available on Business/First + cargo movement. E.g. KL's charges about EUR1,000 on economy for LIM (no competition = higher prices).

Rgs,
edit: typos

[Edited 2005-02-08 16:43:50]

User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

You cannot compare EZE and CCS. EZE is way more attractive and high-yield market. Indeed, LX and KL pulled out of EZE, but KL still operates there with partner JJ.

Of course... Buenos Aires has a population of 13.5 million and Caracas only has 4.7 million.

If you consider that Buenos Aires is 3 times larger than CCS, Buenos Aires is completely underserved compared to CCS. Or CCS is overserved compared to Buenos Aires  Smile.

I think CCS is extremely well served considering that it is a small city compared to other Latin American cities like MEX, GRU and BUE.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

Of course... Buenos Aires has a population of 13.5 million and Caracas only has 4.7 million

Nothing to do with population, but with BUSINESS, high-yielding, traffic. I'm sure you're aware that in the past CCS had more flights than now; it relates somehow to the business environment.

CCS still attracts more Europen flights than other bigger destinations in LatAm (e.g. BOG, LIM, GIG) because it has a strong oil-business, which generates a high-yielding demand.

EZE, MEX and GRU are all important business center, and it happens that they have a big population as well. Otherwise airlines would not be flying to AMS, SIA or DXB. And look how many flights LOS gets?

Rgs,


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6087 times:

there is no matter that EZE is a stronger market than CCS or BOG, but these two destinations are not generally low yield.

EZE, CCS does not get daily fligihts;>

yes but CCS is a nonstop and single destination, and eze is linked in the moment with SCL and will get in future a 1stop flight via GRU.


EZE, CCS only gets the B767;>

Argentina is very strong market for Italy, as so much Argentinias has Italian blood, and I don´t think a B767-300 can operate MXP or FCO to EZE nonstop without weight restrictions


AR to Europe: MAD, FCO and LGW and MUC.>

they fly only direct to MAD, all other destinations are flown with Air Plus metall from MAD, it seems that AR can not fill up the B.747 only with spanish-argentinian market.


EZE, CCS only one;>
but CCS receive flights from a second spanish carrier AirEurope.


And for Brazil, it is totally normal that the biggist City of South America and the industrial capital of Brazil with 1000ends of company headquarter can support more flights than BOG or CCS. Please compare these markets regarding the population and you will see that Colombia and Venzuela support a lot of flights for relativ small countries.

regards
Avianca







Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6081 times:

Not one AZ intercontinental route makes money.


The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

AR fly only direct to MAD, all other destinations are flown with Air Plus metall from MAD

AR flies direct nostop to FCO (B747/A340).

Rgs,


User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2571 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

Nothing to do with population, but with BUSINESS, high-yielding, traffic. I'm sure you're aware that in the past CCS had more flights than now; it relates somehow to the business environment.

Come on Hardi, you are a great contributor to this forum. You are smart, you know population is a key element. You'll have more businesses in a 13 million city than in a 4.5 million city. If it were for the oil, then Maracaibo would be getting all Venezuelan international flights. Maracaibo is Venezuela's oil capital. It's a mix of both business and population, and it's nonsense to say that population has nothing to do.

And for Brazil, it is totally normal that the biggist City of South America and the industrial capital of Brazil with 1000ends of company headquarter can support more flights than BOG or CCS. Please compare these markets regarding the population and you will see that Colombia and Venzuela support a lot of flights for relativ small countries.

Couldn't agree more with you. I also believe that if it wasn't for BOG's high altitude, they would be getting more long haul flights.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6053 times:

Hardiwv, you are right.

AR flies to FCO


Vuelo Salida Llegada Escalas /
Tipo de avión Duración Días operativos
Aerolineas Argentinas
AR 1140 Ministro Pistarini (EZE), Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina 23:30
Fiumicino (FCO), Roma, Italia
Terminal C 16:00+1 día(s)
Sin escalas
744 12'30 Domingo

Aerolineas Argentinas
AR 1140 Ministro Pistarini (EZE), Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina 23:30
Fiumicino (FCO), Roma, Italia
Terminal C 16:40+1 día(s)
Sin escalas
340 13'10 Lunes
Miércoles
Sábado

once per week with B744 and 3 times per week with A342

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

AZ most profitable intercontinental routes are the MXP-JFK, NRT and EZE; flights are full all year long, with significant Magnifica loads also during low seasons

Alitalita said a while back that no areas of their flights operations were making money!I'm sure they could be profitable on some long-haul routes if they could take an axe to costs but right now they are not making money on any!


25 Avianca :
26 Marambio : Avianca, they fly only direct to MAD, all other destinations are flown with Air Plus metall from MAD, it seems that AR can not fill up the B.747 only
27 Avianca : >It really makes me angry when people talk without knowing anything about the topic
28 BAW716 : As an ex Alitalia manager (Northern California 1998-2002), I may be able to offer some perspective on this matter. In South America, there is a dispro
29 Marambio : Avianca, with all respect to you, but I don´t think you can rate my knowledge about aviation in south america. I cannot rate your knowledge about Sou
30 Hardiwv : BAW716: Thank you very much for your very interesting insights on AZ. It was a pleasure reading your comments on AZ. I dont have information on AZ per
31 SOUTHAMERICA : EZE: AF B747 Hardi, EZE has yet to see an AF 747 in the near future. It's an all-777 operation. There is no one destination in south america that is r
32 Avianca : Southamerica, ok please let me know what destination is really low-yield. compared to the average salary and costs ticket prices all over the continen
33 SOUTHAMERICA : Please let me know what destination is really low-yield. Again, so many different situations, different operative costs for each market, diverse types
34 Avianca : SOUTHAMERICA, thank you for the detailed reply. And for sure it is not possible to generalize all, but it is fact and not a pretending from my side th
35 SOUTHAMERICA : The situation is not as for example in some destination in asia, where you will find allot destinations with very low-yield economic and premimum clas
36 Noise : How many people of Italian origin are there in South America?
37 Avianca : >But in contrast, you find among the highest-yielding/premium-traffic-generator cities, precisely, in Asia, and also Africa
38 Post contains links Hardiwv : How many people of Italian origin are there in South America? In Brazil there are 25 millions. In Argentina about 50% of the population is of Italian
39 Avianca : >I completely second your opinion. The comparision GRU x GIG is classical. One represents a higher-yielding market, the other a lower-yielding tourist
40 Avianca : checked for following destinations (CCS, BOG, EZE, GRU, GIG) business class fares for the random date 23.03.2005 to 30.03.2005 from FRA. (fares on tra
41 Hardiwv : with all airlines you will get for all destinations (for sure less all the costs) nearly the same yield. This is exactly how someone should not calcul
42 Chiguire : LH flies daily to EZE, CCS does not get daily fligihts CCS does very well get daily flights from LH: starting March 30 ! And I don't consider CCS as a
43 Avianca : for sure I am not calculate all exactly what is also not so easy, you mentioned all necessary information Hardivw. I took for every destination the ch
44 RCS763AV : BOG is not a high-yielder, but neither a touristic city. The yields are decent b/c Y fares are kinda expensive, planes go decently full, and SOME seat
45 Luisde8cd : Just to give you an idea. AZ used to send the B742 to CCS, then it was replaced by a MD-11 and then came the B763.But the MD11 and 742 flights weren't
46 Noise : Sweet Jesus...why are there so many Italians in Latin America? When did they immigrate there...and why? Do they still speak the language?
47 Avianca : same reason why english, german, chinese or italiens immigrated to the United States or Canada. Just a better life. I know from a friend that in Venez
48 Luisde8cd : I know from a friend that in Venezuela are still colones of Italiens who speaks eatch other still Italien. That's true. Also, whenever the Italian nat
49 Derico : Quote by Luisde8cd #17: "...I think CCS is extremely well served considering that it is a small city compared to other Latin American cities like MEX,
50 Post contains images Luisde8cd : Can someone please tell me how to get to BUE airport from EZE or AEP????? Sorry, I don't think anyone can. But if you do some research, you will find
51 Noise : This must qualify as the most retarded question I've ever read here. No offense, but it's true. Daughter of Magdalene! Excuse me, but I am of Italian
52 PPVRA : Not just Italians, but many others as well: The mix of races and cultures in Brazil is enormous. As already explained above, the history of "why" they
53 PPVRA : And BTW, the South of Brazil is predominantly Italian and German. It's very evident by the architecture in smaller towns and the people.
54 MAH4546 : Colombia is not particularly known by generating high amounts of high-yielding premium traffic, but, for example, the Colombia-United States traffic,
55 EddieDude : I am really surprised that AZ does not serve the Mexican market currently. Mexico is a huge leisure destination for Italians and I think there would b
56 Hardiwv : AZ should definitely evaluate carefully if there are markets served with 762ER's or 772ER's that are not working so well and replace them with non-sto
57 LXsaab2000 : AZ flights to South America are always full so I'll be happy one day to see them increased. As for me : 1 daily to EZE , GRU and CCS from MXP and 1 da
58 Hardiwv : AZ flights to South America are always full so I'll be happy one day to see them increased. I think this is realistic, but considering AZ financial si
59 MAH4546 : And why is AR flying to lower-yielding FCO and not to business-higher-yielding MXP? Does AR have any partner airline in Italy (for domestic onward con
60 Hardiwv : Buenos Aires-Italy is not a business market, it is a high-yielding VFR market The same could be said about Brazil-Italy, however, RG operates daily to
61 Avianca : there is no one of the big eurpean countries that not invest heavy in the south american continent in special in Brazil. The complete market is strong
62 EddieDude : LXsaab2000, thanks a lot for the info. I hope we will see their first plane in Mexico soon. I checked their website and I found that they are already
63 Avianca : I am not 100 percent sure, but I think AZ is codesharing on the Air France flights from CDG to MEX. Some time ago I see this flights listed in the sys
64 EddieDude : Indeed Avianca. I flew MEX-CDG-MAD...STR-CDG-MEX in June & July 2004, and the MEX-CDG legs had the AZ code on. As a matter of fact, I recall a number
65 Matt777 : "And why is AR flying to lower-yielding FCO and not to business-higher-yielding MXP? Does AR have any partner airline in Italy (for domestic onward co
66 MAH4546 : I am not 100 percent sure, but I think AZ is codesharing on the Air France flights from CDG to MEX. Some time ago I see this flights listed in the sys
67 Avianca : just for info AZ code-share on AF to MEX has the flight number AZ-3692 regards
68 Hardiwv : Matt777: You did not get my point. I'm totally aware why AZ flies 5 x week MXP-GRU and MXP-EZE, and only 2 x week FCO-GRU and FCO-GRU. MXP is rich whi
69 Avianca : VFR market from Italy to SouthAmerica is stronger from South Italy. And for connecting passengers it is the same if the flight departs from MXP or FCO
70 Post contains images Hardiwv : Premium passengers from switzerland and austria will not use the car to get to MXP for conections. The nearest airport is MXP. And I said Souther Swit
71 Avianca : yes of course MXP is a more a high yielding market than MXP You see allot of penguins, or priests at the FCO airport, there are so many travelling to
72 Post contains images YUL332LX : ''yes of course MXP is a more a high yielding market than MXP '' ...Duh! As much as I like FCO, the future for AZ is clearly in MXP.
73 Avianca : of course FCO, sorry. great to see that someone find the extra commenced erros, lol. we will see what the future will bring AZ. saldudos [Edited 2005-
74 Hardiwv : the future for AZ is clearly in MXP Completely agree. FCO is a secondary airport, and only because of political pressures AZ still have a second hub t
75 Tripple7 : "the future for AZ is clearly in MXP" I highly doubt if there is any future for AZ at all.
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