Aaer 777 From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 199 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2559 times:
I have recently discovered the delights of non-reving with an infant and I must say that I am quite surprised by the fact that you are not given a seat belt extension for the "precious little one" on AA flights.
The first thing that the FAs do on European flights is bring the above mentioned device.
On the AA flights it's "Hold him tight and it will all be fine, honey"
I would have thought that it would be a FAA requirement to provide these.
I mean, you are required to stow away all luggage for take-off and landing but you are left with a 14kg 16 months old baby (yeah, I know, I make them big...) on your lap, with no restraining device.
Your opinion, please.
PS: Is the policy the same with all US carriers?
N1120A From United States, joined Dec 2003, 23632 posts, RR: 89 Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2507 times:
>Just to be clear, you want a seatbelt extension so you can put the infant in your lap and put the seatbelt around both of you?<
Seatbelt extensions have been around for years, either for larger passengers or for babies. An adult holding a baby, especially when strapped in, is as good or better than a car seat. The only reason that does not work in a car is because you are driving and all.
>My honest opinion is if you really care about your child, you will purchase a seat, bring an FAA approved car seat, and strap your child in correctly.<
That was definately not the best way to put it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
SongStar From United States, joined Jan 2005, 132 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2499 times:
The biggest reason you are not allowed to strap your child in with you in the seatbelt ( extension or not ) is due to the force created by a grown adult on a small child should there be an emergency landing...imagine if you will being thrown forward and you pressing against the child in the belt...the results would be devastating...
It has always amazed me...people are more than willing to put their child in a car seat in a vehicle moving at 65 mph but would rather hold their child in an aircraft hurling through the air at 550 mph. There is legislation out there to require the purchase of a seat for infants 2 and under and for the use of car seats.
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 3260 posts, RR: 22 Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2498 times:
">My honest opinion is if you really care about your child, you will purchase a seat, bring an FAA approved car seat, and strap your child in correctly.<
That was definately not the best way to put it."
Actually, it was THE best way to put it - anything short of strapping the child in a car seat is reckless, be it in an automobile or airplane.
BTW, the FAA has banned the use of selt belt extenders to restrain children on US-registered aircraft.
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a member of the Star Alliance network.
Jumpseat70 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2495 times:
A child under two, tethered to his parent by a seat belt, would be sliced in half upon any type of impact by the "G' forces on an airplane. There are no "seat belt extensions" for babies. You pretty much have to hold on for dear life.
I agree that you should purchase a seat for your little one. This will at least keep them from flying through the air during turbulence since you won't be able to hold them if it, turbulence sneaks up on you. It won't guarantee survival in a crash, but then what does?
Spike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
Aaer777: China also does not require seat belt extensions for domestic flights but does for long-haul flights. I had always viwed extensions more for the purposes of turbulance in-flight or aborted take-off/landing than a crash as the children above seem to think. Basically, they are not in the rote learning of cabin crew whilst putting your daughters cuddly bear in the overhad bin are.
Aaer 777 From Ireland, joined Aug 2000, 199 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2470 times:
Ok, I did not make it quite clear from the beginning. It is not exactly a seat belt extension, rather an additional seat belt that attaches to your own.
On the last couple of flights, there was a seat for the infant (at nonrev rates, I can afford it...) but the flight attendants asked us to take him on our lap, since he is too small to leave on his own in his seat (and yet too big for the car seat that we used to take on board [max 9 kg])
The infant seat belt does not mean an increased risk of crushing the child, it just mean that if you were to lose your grip, his seatbelt is still attached to yours.
Are there any European FAs (the smily friendly ones) in the forum who could shed some light?
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2470 times:
There really needs to be global combined effort on this one- Having just flown to NZ and back with Car seat and infant- it's easy, and i'd do it without question.
However, there are real problems with different authorites and different standards. Some airlines will allow a seat Certified to US, EU, and other major standards, others assist on a US Certification seat only- it's all very confused.
Full marks to BA for their own special child seat program.
Avek00 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 3260 posts, RR: 22 Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
"Ok, I did not make it quite clear from the beginning. It is not exactly a seat belt extension, rather an additional seat belt that attaches to your own."
I know exactly what you are talking about, and it is BANNED by the FAA on US-flag airlines.
Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines, a member of the Star Alliance network.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2440 times:
>>>An adult holding a baby, especially when strapped in, is as good or better than a car seat.
The American Academy of Pediatrics disagrees...
"A child on the lap of an adult cannot be effectively restrained in a motor vehicle or aircraft crash. A child who travels on the lap of another occupant or unrestrained in a motor vehicle has a substantially greater risk of injury and death, compared with a restrained child."
In this day and age, with all the info out there, there is absolutely -zero- excuse for risking making one's child a projectile in an accident/turbulence scenario. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
ORDagent From United States, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2435 times:
When I boarded a pax with an infant I tried to keep a seat open for the infant so the pax could use the car seat if they were smart enough to bring it, which most did. There is NO WAY in a serious accident to keep the child from becoming a missile. You simply can not be strong enough to hold the infant.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3968 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
It has always amazed me...people are more than willing to put their child in a car seat in a vehicle moving at 65 mph but would rather hold their child in an aircraft hurling through the air at 550 mph. There is legislation out there to require the purchase of a seat for infants 2 and under and for the use of car seats.
This statement is so wrong it's not even funny. American car seats are tested at 30mph (European seats at a more realistic 60mph). That is barely realistic for a car, can you explain how a car seat can offer any safety at 550mph? There's a reason why it's called a CAR seat and not an airplane seat.
Also, a car ride doesn't cost $500, and cars are far more dangerous than airplanes so the chance of anything ever happening on an airplane is slim to none. When you do a cost benefit analysis, it doesn't take a genious to realize that enforcing car seats on airplanes is a losing battle. Not to mention you'll be opening a huge legal can of worms for the airlines.
EA CO AS From United States, joined Nov 2001, 9927 posts, RR: 73 Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2387 times:
In this day and age, with all the info out there, there is absolutely -zero- excuse for risking making one's child a projectile in an accident/turbulence scenario. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! As a customer relations supervisor, I have this same discussion with at least once a week with well-intentioned but overly cheap parents - all they see is the fact that keeping junior on their lap is free, vs. the (apparently, to them) unnecessary cost of keeping their child safe during a flight.
I'm very much for legislation requiring customers to purchase a seat for ALL children, regardless of their age. And yes, I know there are those who would argue that this extra cost could potentially keep some families from traveling.
SO BE IT, THEN.
It's just another cost of having children, and I was raised with the understanding that if you can't afford something, then you go without.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2386 times:
Hawk21M:
BA teamed up with Britax, and built some Airline specific childseats: You can pre-book them.
There is info on this somewhere on their site.
FAA mandate that on all US Carriers, if you have a FAA certified child seat, US Carriers MUST let you use it, if you have paid for a full seat for the infant.
Over here in Europe, wankers like Ryanair can mandate that Child seats are not able to be used, even if you paid for a full seat for your infant/2+ child.
The industry, and consumers, need some common standards, or recognition that there are more than one standards body out there, such that all major EU, US, Oz/NZ standards could be used on any carrier.....
Mtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2385 times:
While it is legal in other countries, US flagged carriers are not allowed by law to let you belt your child in with you. They must be held in your lap, if under 2 years old, or be in an FAA approved carseat. US F/A's are required to have PAX unbuckle any child found belted in with a seatbelt around them and the parent/adult.
I agree with most of the people on this thread: Spend the extra $ and buy your child a seat- It IS NOT safer to hold your child no matter what you think! The G-forces of an aborted takeoff at 160 MPH could kill your child. I realize some people just don't have the $, but is your child really worth it in a freak accident than could happen?
I see the FAA in the future requiring ALL children to be in a carseat.... Its only a matter of 1 lawsuit and time...
Spike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2366 times:
I see no harm in having your child held by you during take of, anding or turbelence as long as they have the extension belt on. Your weight can not directly affect them but your hold can help / sooth them. Turbulance is not nice for anyone, and I for one would rather have held on to my Mum than be strapped into a 'cascet' for the entire flight. Nanny state shite.
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2358 times:
Wrong, spike. There is a considerable body of evidence, collected by the FAA since the early 80's that travelling in an lap belt extension is signficantly less safe than a correctly fitted car seat.
In anycase, i can tell you that my 1 year old slept 8-10 hours of his 12 hour legs perfectly comfortable in the familiarity of his car seat- i hate to think how that might have been on my lap for us, and the surrounding pax.
Nanny state- what bollocks. That kids should be needlessly endangered by tightwad parents is offensive. Or do you think car seats in cars are interference as well?
Tvcflyer From United States, joined Dec 2004, 47 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2345 times:
Ok, I did not make it quite clear from the beginning. It is not exactly a seat belt extension, rather an additional seat belt that attaches to your own.
Correct me if I am wrong. I believe the FAA banned this type of device during takeoff/landing/taxi. I think you can still have the little guy tethered to you during the flight.
EA CO AS From United States, joined Nov 2001, 9927 posts, RR: 73 Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2340 times:
I see no harm in having your child held by you during take of, anding or turbelence as long as they have the extension belt on.
I do, since most accidents occur during takeoff, landing, and severe turbulence.
And unless the parent is clairvoyant and has knowledge of the exact moment a sudden violent manuever may occur, they won't be able to react quickly enough to belt the kid in instead of keeping them on their lap.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Zonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2331 times:
Belting the kid in the seatbelt extension is the dangerous bit, EA_CO_AS, as explained elsewhere is this thread.
The problem is gutless regulators unwilling to mandate kids recieved the same protection they deserve in a car as they do in a plane. Presumably, to not put their carriers at a financial disadvantage- despite the body of evidence collected by the FAA.
Airbazar From United States, joined Sep 2003, 3968 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2324 times:
This discussion about car seats keeps coming up and bottom line is, in an industry where airlines prefer to file for Ch11 rather than raise their fares by $5, it is unrealistic to think that forcing every parent to buy a ticket for each of their children will ever become a reality. It's not just the airlines who stem to lose customes. Imagine how much shorter the lines at Disney World would be Also, how can you continue to claim that airplanes are the safest mode of transportation and then force children to be strapped to car seats when you don't have to do that on either a bus or a train?
Again, what happens when a car seat that's tested for crashes up to 30mph fails to protect a child on an airplane at 300mph? The parents's lawers would have a field day. FAA approved car seats are not tested at higher impact speeds. It just means they fit in an airplane seat. It's a CAR seat, not an airplane seat.
Spike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
That's crap. A pilot alerts you of turbulance and you sit up / strap in with baby on lap. If clear air turbulence occurs and the pilot didn't see it coming then who knows where you and your child could be? In the washroom, seeing the engines? Would it matter unless you are saying children should be strapped into a car seat for an entire flight??.
EA CO AS From United States, joined Nov 2001, 9927 posts, RR: 73 Reply 25, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2311 times:
Belting the kid in the seatbelt extension is the dangerous bit, EA_CO_AS, as explained elsewhere is this thread.
I agree - I meant in their own seat. Frankly, a kid shouldn't be on the lap or within the confines of the parent's seatbelt. The safest place is in their own seat, securely strapped in.
As I explained earlier, I'm VERY much in favor of legislation requiring customers to purchase a separate seat for each child, regardless of age.
That's crap. A pilot alerts you of turbulance and you sit up / strap in with baby on lap.
Spike, not all turbulence is known of beforehand - but either way, it doesn't change the fact that having children on your lap during a flight rather than buying a separate seat is an irresponsible way to save a buck.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
26 Zonky: Spike, risk minimisation. Like keeping your seatbelt in your seat on, even if the light is off, in your seat. You can choose to keep it off, but that
27 Aaer 777: Thanks to all the "if you can't afford it, don't do it" and the "if you have kids, stay at home and watch the Teletubbies (c)", those were particularl
28 Zonky: Aaer: there are many forward facing car seats avaliable for 9-18kg kids (approx 9 months-4 years) in Europe, that can be secured legally by a single l
29 DeltaMIA: Again, what happens when a car seat that's tested for crashes up to 30mph fails to protect a child on an airplane at 300mph? I don't understand where
30 Travatl: The DOT has wrestled with the car seat debate for YEARS in this country. Ultimately their stance being that the added cost of the additional seat woul
31 Spike: When your number is up, it is up. No magtter what you are doing / travelling on. Also if I put my 4-year old in a 'car' seat on an aeroplane, I would
32 ANNOYEDFA: I'm a Flight Attendant and from what I was taught it is much safer to hold the child. Never put them in the seat belt with you because even a rejected
33 Zonky: "Also if I put my 4-year old in a 'car' seat on an aeroplane, I would probably be paying millions in therapy costs later in life! " Why? You are requi
34 Airbazar: For all those who keep saying "if it's mandatory in a car it should be on an airplane": Show me the data that says more children have been hurt on an
35 LTBEWR: I have seen years ago on Virgin a seperate belt around the baby and the is held by the web looped under the 'holders' belt. Probably such special loop
36 Icaro: Hi all, In Spain it is mandatory to give all babies an Infant Belt. It is a small belt which rounds the baby and gets attached to the adults belt in a
37 Nwajetset: Case in point: In 1987 Northwest Airlines flight 255 crashed at Detroit Metro onto Middlebelt Road. All 100+ passengers perished except one 4 year old
38 10MID: If a plane is going to deccelerate from 500mph to 0 in a matter of seconds, it doesn't really matter what anyone is sitting ot wearing. Survivability
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can mandate that Child seats are not able to be used, even if you paid for a full seat for your infant/2+ child.
Also, how can you continue to claim that airplanes are the safest mode of transportation and then force children to be strapped to car seats when you don't have to do that on either a bus or a train?
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