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Dubai - Tel Aviv  
User currently offlineIAD777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 121 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5822 times:

I would love to see Dubai - Tel Aviv flights. It would be an excellent link. Of course, the UAE would have recognize Israel diplomatically and the two countries would have establish relations etc etc. But I think it would be an awesome link and a good addition to Tel Aviv-Cairo and Tel Aviv-Amman flights. El Al and Emirates could both operate the route. Anyone see that happening any time soon? Or is it wishful thinking?

As an interesting side note, President Clinton flew (when we was out of office, about a year ago) between Abu Dhabi and Tel-Aviv, and it required all kinds of special overflight permissions from various countries, including Saudi Arabia. It can be done though!

IAD777


History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNYCFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5765 times:

I'd love to see that too. Sadly, that doesn't seem realistic at the moment. As liberal as the UAE is (compared to other Arab countries), the Israel travel restriction is a very important bone they throw to any would-be Islamic radicals who might stir up trouble. I don't see that rule changing so long as it's the norm throughout the region.

Of course, with the current talks between Sharon and Abbas, I pray that there is light at the end of the tunnel here.


User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5749 times:

The routes any airline flying to or through that area of the world are interesting. I flew Gulf Air LHR-BAH and return in 2000. I kept checking on the map. We had to fly around Israel, the Occupied Territories, and Iraq. At the time, we also had to avoid Bosnia. It made for an interesting path!


User currently offlineIAD777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5688 times:

Jrlander:

Sounds interseting. That happened to me also, I was fly LY 744 from TLV-EWR and we had to fly around the entire balkans (this was in 1999-2000). We fly over istanbul, poland, scandanavia then down to newark. Flight time was an extra 2.5 hours. It was brutal, but the skies were clear that and I had a really neat view of interesting places.



History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

If it ever happened, TLV-DXB could very well become the most important route in the Middle East, linking the region's most modern and diversified economy with its rising transportation and economic superhub.

That having been said, it is going to take a lot more than Sharon and Abbas chatting nicely to normalize relations between Israel and the Islamic world. Even if (when) a legitimate Palestine becomes a reality, the rest of the states in the Middle East are not going to suddenly become best buds with Israel. Nevertheless, Dubai is poised to play a preeminent role in the economic future of the region, and the addition of Israel to that framework would be the most important economic milestone in decades.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

The United Arab Emirates is one of the main contributers to aid and charity work for Palestinians.

They are funding the construction of 400 homes in Gaza which Israel had destroyed.

Israel had recently approached Abu Dhabi about establishing a "diplomatic office" like they have in Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, and Kuwait, but they were denied.

TLV-DXB will only happen when relations between the rest of the Arab world and Israel normalize.

The Arab League has been demanding that Israel pull out of the Arab territories it occupied in 1967 and that Israel accept the right of return of Palestinian refugees.

Until this happens, I don't think you will see normalization of relations between the Arab world and Israel, especially the United Arab Emirates who have always been quite Arab nationalistic.

If it ever happened, TLV-DXB could very well become the most important route in the Middle East, linking the region's most modern and diversified economy with its rising transportation and economic superhub.

I don't think TLV-DXB would ever exceed Egypt-Saudi Arabia.

Also, flights between the UAE and Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, and Oman (the Gulf Cooperation Council nations) will always be much much bigger than TLV-DXB.

Also if peace is achieved between Israel and the UAE, I don't think it will necessarily lead to great cooperation between the two countries, at least not in the beginning.

Also, cooperation between the Gulf Cooperation Council (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, United Arab Emirates, and Oman) is all very very tightly knit. UAE-Israel peace will only happen under the condition that GCC-Israel peace happens.

Jrlander,

Take a look at the route we took when I flew BEY-AMM on MEA:



Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineIad777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5512 times:

BA:

I wasn't looking for a history of the Arab League demands. I know those. But thanks for providing one side of the story.

I was merely talking about flights between Dubai and Tel Aviv would be awesome (with the necessary condition being peace in the region, which would be even more awesome.)



History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Iad777,

Flights between Dubai and Tel Aviv cannot happen until peace is accomplished. They're inseperable.

The UAE does not recognize Israel and thus, does not even recognize Israeli passports.

They also technically do not allow anyone with an Israeli stamp to enter, however this rule is not enforced as much anymore along with a few other Arab countries.

Flights between Israel and anywhere in the Arab world (besides Egypt and Jordan) cannot happen until peace is achieved, not before.

That's simply my point.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1346 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5472 times:

I must say the most interesting thing about the image posted by BA is the labeling of the cities: 3 Palestinian cities (Nabulus, Jerusalem, Ghazzah) and Quneitra in the Golan are labeled, but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.

User currently offlineTLVFred From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

BA.....and the right of return of Jews to Iraq, Iran etc when they were slung out in the 50's.

Must be a very long detour for people I know who travel TLV-DXB now.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5379 times:

Ahlfors,

I must say the most interesting thing about the image posted by BA is the labeling of the cities: 3 Palestinian cities (Nabulus, Jerusalem, Ghazzah) and Quneitra in the Golan are labeled, but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.

Most Arab made-maps will label Jaffa, which is just south of Tel Aviv.

When the news is covering something occuring in Tel Aviv, they will mark it on the map.

TLVFred,

BA.....and the right of return of Jews to Iraq, Iran etc when they were slung out in the 50's.

Why not?

Take a look at this:
http://www.ameu.org/uploads/vol31_issue2_1998.pdf

Getting slightly back on topic, does Egypt Air (under Air Sinai) still fly to Tel Aviv? I think they used to use an unlabeled 735. I'm sure Horus knows...

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineAsbg From Israel, joined Feb 2000, 538 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Even if one day there will be such a flight, I think both sides will wait a while before flying. I don't think that this kind of flight agreement is signed right after a peace is made. The relations between the two countries must prove themselves first. I doubt that flights to Amman and Cairo are packed with Israelis. Sinai is an exception. Flights from Tel Aviv to Dubai will be good as a stopover on the way to Asia. Instead of flying around the Persian Gulf. That way several hours of flying can be spared.


BA,
The UAE does not recognize Israel and thus, does not even recognize Israeli passports.
What about an American passport for example with "place of birth: Israel" printed? Would be a shame to know that I can't enter the UAE. I entered Malaysia with no problem even though there are no relations between my country and Malaysia.

Air Sinai still flies from Israel. A flight departs every Sunday. Yes, the fly the 735. If I'm not mistaking there are also Royal Wings flight from Amman or Aqaba to Haifa.

Sam.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

I doubt that flights to Amman and Cairo are packed with Israelis.

From what I've heard, these flights are packed with Palestinians. This is what my uncle who lives in Jordan tells me.

What about an American passport for example with "place of birth: Israel" printed? Would be a shame to know that I can't enter the UAE.

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is a problem. They go strictly by nationality, and not place of birth.

I entered Malaysia with no problem even though there are no relations between my country and Malaysia.

Yup, exactly.

Air Sinai still flies from Israel. A flight departs every Sunday. Yes, the fly the 735.

Thanks for that.

If I'm not mistaking there are also Royal Wings flight from Amman or Aqaba to Haifa.

Royal Wings discontinued Haifa a couple years ago. They still fly to Tel Aviv from Amman Queen Alia Int'l though.

The only service Aqaba gets is Royal Wings from Amman Marka Airport (and some from Queen Alia Int'l). Some of the flights to Aqaba continue to Sharm el Sheikh.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineYegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

In my opinion, both EK and El Al would jump in there right away. But, as BA said, if there's not a peace deal that will involve all arab countries including the Saudis....the flights will never happen.

I remember one dau when I was booking a ticket at atravel agency in Dubai, someone was trying to buy a ticket from Dubai to TLV. he ended up having to fly via IST.


But honestly, I think that Ek could care less about such route.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Does EK still have a No Load Policy for Israel Passport Holders ???

This was discussed before a few months ago... Guess will see Iraq-Israel First..


User currently offlineIad777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

BA:

I agree with your clairifed point.

It's impossible to start the flights until full peace is established, and even then it would take a bit of time.

I'd also love to see Tel-Aviv - Beirut flights. (not to mention that i'd love to go to beirut. I've lived in Israel and traveled throughout Jordan. Would like to explore more of the Mid-East.

One day, hopefully soon, these flights will start.



History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5230 times:

I don't think anyone here misunderstands that peace and normalized relations will have to be established before any flights between Israel and most Arab countries can begin. However, I think that in the future, DXB-TLV will happen, and when it does, it will be unbelievably successful.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineIAD777 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 121 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Regarding the picture BA posted of his routemap--which is really interesting to see, and somewhat unbelieavble and depressing--take a look at the El Al website. Then go to the routemap and if you click on Asian destinations, El Al traces the flight paths from Tel Aviv down over Eilat, down the Red Sea, and all the way around the Middle-East. It's nuts! Must be several extra hours of flight time.


History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5140 times:

COSPN,

Does EK still have a No Load Policy for Israel Passport Holders ???

As far as I know, yes. All Arab airlines do (except Egyptian and Jordanian of course) do not allow Israeli passport holders. Many also do not allow passports with Israeli stamps.

All airlines serving Arab countries are required to check passports and make sure that there is no Israeli passport holder and no Israeli stamps in passports (but like I said, some countries do not enforce this rule as much anymore).

Infact, Lebanon fines airlines $2000USD if a passenger has an Israeli stamp in his/her passport. That's $2000USD per passenger who is denied entry and that passenger must be put on the return flight.

Passport holders with Israeli stamps are only allowed to transit in Beirut Airport without leaving the airport and staying at the airport for a maximum of 24 hours. This is the only exception.

However, I have heard that SOME tour companies can book tour packages in Lebanon for passengers with Israeli stamps, but this must be pre-approved.

This was discussed before a few months ago... Guess will see Iraq-Israel First..

I used to think that as well. But with Iraq possibly becoming an Islamic Republic, I wouldn't count on it.

Iad777,

(not to mention that i'd love to go to beirut.

If you don't have an Israeli stamp in your current passport or have another passport, I highly recommend you visit Beirut. If you want some more details, email me. I'd be glad to give you some tips and information.

Trvlr,

However, I think that in the future, DXB-TLV will happen, and when it does, it will be unbelievably successful.

I think this depends on how relations would develop. For example, El Al only operates 2 weekly flights between Cairo and Tel Aviv. Yet Cairo is a huge city with 16 million. However as you will have heard, the Egypt/Israel and Jordan/Israel relations have always been "cold."

IAD777,

It's nuts! Must be several extra hours of flight time.

Indeed it does. I remember hearing some issues about El Al flights flying over the Strait of Mandeb between Yemen and Djibouti/Eritrea between the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offline777boi From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5102 times:

I am not quiet sure what passports they have held, but i have recently seen a few kosher meals served out with the special meals on Emirates... These meals are loaded on from other airline caterers as Emirates does not make a kosher meal.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26357 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

>but Tel Aviv is not... tells you something about how the Lebanese feel about the whole situation down south.<

Could be because Jaffa is the historical city.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSFOMEX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

Really interesting topic. I'm planning a trip to the Holy Land at the end of this year and I'd love to visit Israel and some Arab countries at the same time. After all, it's not really often that you can go to that part of the world. I wasn't aware of the passport stamps issue. I will use my Mexican passport and as far as I know, we don't have any problem neither with Israel nor its Arab neighbors. Would I have a problem going first to Jerusalem and next to Lebanon? Or the other way around? I'd really appreciate any input. Thanks!

User currently offlineFogCreekCEO From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 23 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Just ask the Israeli border authorities not to stamp your passport. They'll be happy to give you your visa on a detachable page -- they do it all the time for this reason.

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5044 times:

actually Ahlfors and BA... those maps arent "Arab-made" theyre all the same and most of those GPS maps are western made anyways - they just put really wierd names on them. flying LHR-ORD on UA i remember Stephenville, Canada and Nice,Frace being on the map but not New York, Paris, Toronto. Once again flying KLM AMS-ORD Stephenville, Canada and Nice, France but no New York, Washington, anything... flying Air France LAX-PPT, Brisbane, San Diego, Seattle, not Sydney, Los Angles, etc... and Kenya Airways NBO-AMS... Muscat, Agadir, Libreville... definately not the biggest cities in the world, skipping over London, Cairo, huge places... those maps are wierd and the cities posted have nothing to do with intent by the airlines as far as i know..

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5034 times:

N1120A,

Could be because Jaffa is the historical city.

That's correct.

SFOMEX,

Would I have a problem going first to Jerusalem and next to Lebanon?

Yes, if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, you will not be allowed into Lebanon.

Or the other way around?

This would work better, but keep in mind that I hear they interrogate you a lot if you have an Arab stamp.

FogCreekCEO,

Just ask the Israeli border authorities not to stamp your passport. They'll be happy to give you your visa on a detachable page -- they do it all the time for this reason.

That would work.

TWA902fly,

actually Ahlfors and BA... those maps arent "Arab-made" theyre all the same and most of those GPS maps are western made anyways

I was talking about Arab maps in general.

[Edited 2005-02-11 07:09:43]


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
25 Asbg : Yes, if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, you will not be allowed into Lebanon. I don't understand this issue. What if someone for example v
26 BA : I don't understand this issue. What if someone for example visited to Israel for business trip or a missionary trip? Then his/her business or mission
27 N1120A : >Or the other way around? This would work better, but keep in mind that I hear they interrogate you a lot if you have an Arab stamp.FogCreekCEO, Just
28 BA : N1120A, I have had a friend turned away and put back on a plane to Germany, with an American passport, American born, Egyptian ancestry and 1 stamp to
29 IAD777 : I have several israeli stamps in my passport, but I also have Jordanian stamps and a Jordanian visa. Will the two cancel each other out and allow me t
30 NYCFlyer : BA - technically, would an Arab (non-Jordanian/Egyptian) passport holder be allowed into Israel? Obviously this doesn't happen much, but in theory, do
31 QR332 : SFOMEX, My advice is finish the Arab countries first, then visit Israel, as you will not be able to enter the Arab countries if you have the Israeli s
32 IAD777 : Interesting that the Israeli's let you in with Arab stamps, but not vica-versa.
33 Jcavinato : How about Royal Jordanian and take a cab from Amman to the border, walk through, then another cab from there. That's all quite easy. Relationships bet
34 NYCFlyer : Jcavinato - Crossing the Allenby/King Hussein bridge from Jordan to Israel/West Bank was one of the most painful experiences of my life. It took me fo
35 IAD777 : Allenby is a royal pain in the ass. Has anyone been on an Israel-Egypt/Jordan flight?
36 Post contains images Royisher : Well, I'm a israeli, and used to be alot in Jordan, from 95 to 99, every month atleast twice, and I just love Jordan, and can't say we always had cold
37 BA : NYCFlyer, BA - technically, would an Arab (non-Jordanian/Egyptian) passport holder be allowed into Israel? Obviously this doesn't happen much, but in
38 L410Turbolet : I wonder how long it will take for the Arab countries to realize that with these shortsighted and stupid measures inspired by blind hate they are only
39 QR332 : I also believe that the procedure does nothing useful - Potential tourists are bushed away, and if Israel wanted to spy on an Arab country, I think th
40 L410Turbolet : Lebanon is so harsh when it comes to this is because of the many conflicts it has had in the past with Israel. Well, EVERYBODY knows that! Why hassle
41 BA : I wonder how long it will take for the Arab countries to realize that with these shortsighted and stupid measures inspired by blind hate they are only
42 Yyz717 : Dubai-TLV flights are unlikely any time soon (obviously, we all agree on that). Prior to nonstops between TLV & Arab cities (other than CAI), obviousl
43 Post contains images LY744 : Interesting picture indeed BA. Nice to see the little loop your own national airline has to take around most of your own country, which is populated (
44 BA : Nice to see the little loop your own national airline has to take around most of your own country, which is populated (as to not say "occupied") by Sy
45 CXA330300 : Currently, the very few people travelling this route usually travel through Amman. Dual citizenship helps a lot, going in to Israel on one passport an
46 Flying Belgian : Picture is indeed interesting and revealing ! Economically, a DXB-TLV link would make sense according to me. Many Jewish and Arabs go beyond the polit
47 LY744 : Why does an airbase of a country with virtually no airforce (except a few Hueys) need to have closed airspace around it? LY744.
48 BA : LY744, Why does an airbase of a country with virtually no airforce (except a few Hueys) need to have closed airspace around it? I really don't know, p
49 Yyz717 : The great irony about the lack of flights between Israel and many Arab countries is that it may take an emergency landing of an EL AL flight in an Ara
50 Bkonner : Howdy, Just out of curiosity, has there ever been an emergency landing of an EL AL flight in an Arab country (except Jordan and Egypt)? If so, do you
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