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AS At PDX  
User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2073 posts, RR: 36
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Why haven't they added any transcons from PDX? It seems like given the competition and traffic that some transcons would make sense. I never even see Portland as one of the initial routes from a new destination (i.e. DFW). I know SEA is right there, but given the presence that they already have in PDX I'm surprised it isn't involved in more of their expansion plans.

Thoughts?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2091 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

I agree, I think several city pairs would work. PDX-MCO, PDX-MIA/FLL, PDX-JFK.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20535 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Good question, especially since CO is adding a second PDX-EWR flight soon.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAs739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Well guys this has been disscussed many time, but let me give you the run down again. One big reason...."Economy". Portland is hurting right now. That is why QX has built up more from PDX and AS has gone to other cities. When the PDX economy comes back, so will Alaska Mainline and maybe transcon. I know for a fact that AS is looking into a red-eye PDX-MCO. That is the only flight I know of them looking into right now.
Widget...why would AS start PDX-FLL or JFK when we don't serve those cities now? We would only start service to station already opened.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

AS seems to be focusing on SEA for the time being, although I think lots of money could be made on some PDX transcons. I agree that the market could support at least 1x each daily to JFK, MCO, and BOS.

I was a little surprised that Song started 3x daily SEA-JFK when the market already seems to be well-served, while not doing anything in PDX. I think Song could do well with a 1x each PDX-JFK and PDX-MCO, especially since you can earn AS miles on DL and Song. I wouldn't be shocked if B6 started a PDX-JFK redeye this year, either.

Someone will be starting these routes at some point, snd then AS will be kicking themselves for missing the boat.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2091 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

AS739x, where is it written in your company manual that AS must start initial service from SEA first. If that were the case then quite a lot of AS's routes don't make sense. I think a 737-700 flight to FLL would work simply because no other airline flies n/s from PDX to Florida. I think PDX-JFK has potential to tie into DL's International gateway and given the fact that no airline is serving this route. It would be great if AS could beat B6 to this route because I'm sure it's on their radar screen.

User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3036 times:

It's all about the economy. AS isn't going to start PDX-JFK if CO already has a flight to EWR and is about to start a 2nd. I can't see AS doing PDX-BOS or to MIA, either, MCO would be the best option. One route that would make sense for them (though I hope they don't as I'm a UA fan) would be to either DCA or IAD, to compete against UA. Depending on what happens at US, AS might consider SEA-PHL.

Also, transcons are fairly new to AS, within 4 years, so my thinking is that they want to build the network first out of SEA and a good service reputation, and then explore other possibilities when the time arises. As for PDX, I believe the focus is to feed the NW flight to NRT right now, using QX from other cities in the region. PDX is building an underground tunnel from the B/C concourse over to D, so that people coming in from NW/QX/AS flights can transfer over to the int'l. area for the NW flight to save having to go through security a 2nd time for no reason.


User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3024 times:

Widget,
I think the point he was trying to make, is that AS is not going to open a new city out of PDX into a market they all ready serve. I.E., JFK, when they serive EWR. FLL, when they serve MIA. It doesn't make sense econimically to serve an airport in the same city/area they all ready serve another airport. It's about what makes sense...and opening FLL, when they all ready serve MIA doesn't make sense.


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

Thank you S12, you beat me to the response, I was on my way home from work.
Widget, is not written, but it almost an unwritten law so to speak. I can not think of a single AS market started new from PDX. It make no sense as well to fly PDX-JFK. DL already feeds their own flights on that route to Europe. If there is need for our passengers to fly that route, then that is the reason we codeshare with DL. With regards to FLL, there is way more demand from SFO(Bay Area) and SEA to FLL and there are no non-stops from those city's as well.
I said Economy is the deciding factor cause that straight from AS managments mouth. They have all flat out said there is no demand for it. As I said to Lenald many times, AS has not forgotten PDX. Just the timing for expansion from PDX is not right.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2981 times:
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Why haven't they added any transcons from PDX?

As739x is exactly right - to paraphrase President Clinton's 1992 campaign slogan, "it's the economy, stupid."

The economy in PDX and the surrounding area has been abysmal for the past few years, and AS sees no reason to add service to a market that, to be honest, has not been performing well with its EXISTING service.

For Alaska Airlines, SEA will almost always be the first city any new service will be launched from. Will this ALWAYS be the case? No, not at all. Once the economy in PDX rebounds, you'll see more AS mainline service there to existing destinations, and then possibly new service added.

AS739x, where is it written in your company manual that AS must start initial service from SEA first.

Not being an AS employee like As739x and myself are you may not be aware of this, but Bill Ayer, Gregg Saretsky and the other officers aren't shy about talking about Alaska's "Seattle Strategy," which is to dominate that market and focus on service from SEA to existing routes and any others they may add down the line.

If other market opportunities present themselves (such as LAX-DCA did), they'll seek them out - but for now, service to and from SEA is the top priority.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2936 times:
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FYI, the Port has a temporary bus connector in place now between C and D to connect passengers without going through security until the tunnel is constructed (if it ever is...).

Before you beat up on AS too much, keep in mind first that AS has a lot on their plate, and second that PDX has some pretty good service that other markets our size don't have:
- AS has to right their financial ship. That's their #1 goal. New routes be damned.
- SEA is getting popular with other new entrants: jetBlue, Song, Virgin America (if it ever comes), etc. AS has to defend that turf.
- PDX has pretty good AS service now. We shouldn't gripe.
- PDX has service to FRA, HNL, and NRT nonstop, not bad for a market its size.
- Port management hasn't been exactly conducive to new service. Why expand if the landlord's a jerk?
- If PDX-MCO was going to be a cash cow, why isn't WN doing it?

I think we'll see a change in tune from AS the moment that jetBlue or Song announces JFK-PDX service, which IMHO is only a matter of time. Then, you might see a response from AS. Until then, the only real gripe that PDXers have, in my view, is lack of nonstops to BOS and JFK.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

AS739x, where is it written in your company manual that AS must start initial service from SEA first.

C'mon now!

First, where did AS739x even suggest that there is such a policy in whatever imaginary "company manual" to which you refer?

Second, AS739x did give a totally plausible explanation -- which also happens to be correct -- for Alaska's emphasis on new routes being started from SEA rather than PDX in recent years and in the immediately forseeable future.

Moreover, with Horizon's PDX-SEA-PDX "shuttle" (flights departing every 30 minutes at :00 and :30 from early am to late pm in both directions) PDX has excellent -- to say nothing of highly convenient -- access to flights departing and arriving at SEA.


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

R and Flash, well said.

Flash, I wouldnt say PDX-MCO will be a cash cow. It is a leisure markets! What the company was and may still be looking at is operating a 73G as a red-eye, making a little money over night. But as I said it was being looked at and that straight from the mouth of Gregg Saretsky, that all I know. I hope for PDX that we do start it!

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2881 times:
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I shouldn't have characterized anything to MCO as a "cash cow", just pointing out that the folks at WN, not to mention AS, aren't fools, and if there was a line already forming for the flight, it'd be there most likely.

A red-eye PDX-MCO makes a hell of a lot of sense, if you ask me, not to mention to other leisure routes potentially in the future.

Even without any changes, AS fliers have plenty of options today. AS/QX and its partners (DL, NW, CO, AA, HA) fly nonstop from PDX to ANC, ATL, BIL, BOI, BUR, CVG, DEN, DFW, DTW, EUG, EUE, EWR, FAT, GEG, IAH, HNL, LAS, LMT, LAX, MFR, MSP, MWH, NRT, OAK, OGG, ONT, OTH, ORD, PHX, PSC, PSP, RDD, RDM, SAN, SBA, SEA, SFO, SMF, SLC, SNA, SJC, YVR.

That doesn't include service by UA, F9, WN, HP, and partners. That adds ABQ, FRA, GDL, IAD, MCI, RNO.

42 nonstop markets served by AS and partners, and 48 markets in total. Again, very very little to complain about.


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

You forgot ACV. MSO is also served (seasonally). Both are served on QX
.
.
.
.
filler

-Copa


User currently offlineQxq400 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2683 times:

AS will fight to the death to defend SEA. They are gearing up for that fight with Virgin America or what ever they will call themselves. SEA will always have more connections on AS out of SEA than PDX. SEA is VITAL to AAG long term survival as is PDX. AAG is using QX to maintain service in PDX until the timing is right to bring back mainline AS. Using QX is better than cutting service and with QX several markets are going to be gaining flight frequency.


Welcome baby Madison Renee
User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Portland doesn't seem to be much of a market for transcons. United only flies nonstop from Dulles once a day and only uses a 319. Seattle and San Diego each have three a day with larger aircraft. Is the Portland economy really not doing well these days?

User currently offlineKWBL From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 444 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

I don't completely agree with the "economy sucks" theory. PDX had it's 3rd best year ever in 2004 topping 13 million passengers. The economy is not as good as it has been in the past but it is improving. I think it has as much to do with resource allocation for AS as it is the economy and maybe more. From what I can tell, AS does not have alot of planes sitting around idle these days. If say for instance AS wanted to increase PDX flying, where would they get the planes? They would have to remove them from other routes, especially out of SEA and like others have said, SEA is going to be the primary focus and always will be. They also seem to have found niches at LAX and YVR. Frankly (and I am a big fan of QX & AS), I do not think they will regain the dominance they once had at PDX. WN is growing at PDX and is closing in on AS as the single biggest carrier. If others beat AS to the punch to some of these other routes (JFK, MCO, BOS etc), I doubt AS will try and come in and knock them out. As an editorial, I do think PDX is oft overlooked when it comes to transcons. As an example, PDX and SMF have the same number of NS flights to EWR/JFK (actually SMF has one more during the winter season) yet PDX has more than double the number of flyers in that market. Why?? SEA has 13 or 14 NS per day to New York and PDX has the one (2 in summer) yet the SEA only has a 3:1 ratio in number of PAX.

User currently offlineAlexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2626 times:

I must agree with Qxq400...........

AS will set up in SEA, then move up and down the coast as it needs to survive.

The SEA-DFW market was golden for them. I would not be surprised to see them with 3 or 4 daily flights. SEA-IAH should be next, or SEA-ATL.

AS is going where the money is. They seem to be attacking those city pairs with no or limited competition.

I havent see a summer schudule yet.....AA bringing back SEA-BOS? Or will AS go double daily again?

Portland will get it's day. But all-in-all, they seem to be doing very well with the AS/QX mix in PDX.



You mad Bro???
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6124 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

KWBL..WN catching AS in daily flights,maybe. But catching Alaska Air Group, not in the ballpark! AS 36 flights today.....QX 118 (plus/minus a few) today.
-
The Economy in PDX does stink. Plain and simple, no argument! Alaska can make mainline planes appear in Portland if we needed to. The facts and numbers are that no mainline planes are needed. If the demand for service to east coast cities we serve was needed, Alaska or even someone else would do it. I think the indication that no carrier is adding NYC/MCO/BOS, that the need is not there. People keep judging PDX needs by AS, but lets remember other carriers are not adding anything. Flashmeister is correct that PDX has very good service for a city of its size and economic situation. When PDX is on the rise again, you'll see AS and other carriers add service as needed.
-
ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2526 times:
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One of the big reasons for the allocation of New York-bound flights at SEA, PDX, and SMF, is because a whole lot of PDX-NYC traffic routes through SEA due to QX's shuttle. SMF doesn't have a similar beast, so they have more seats per potential passenger. PDX becomes a virtual part of SEA's catchment area for their NYC flights because it's so easy to get to SEA and connect.

That being said, it wastes time, and as business traffic picks up again at PDX (lagging behind economic growth), nonstops will become necessary here. I have no doubt that they'll be added.

As for the PDX economic situation, it's all fine and good to have tons of people, but at what yield? If the general economy is bad here in PDX (and it's not great), then all those additional pax can only afford to fly if the fares are lower. It makes much more sense to send one lower-yielding flight out of a main hub like SEA than multiple lower-yielding flights here, especially to leisure markets.

Some facts on PDX's economy:
Unemployment hovers at about 6.8 percent, down from 7.6 percent the year before. We're still well behind the national average of 5.4 percent. Oregon now has only one Fortune 500 company headquartered here (Nike), and that's outside the city of Portland. Oregon has relatively high property and income taxes (but no sales tax), and an uncertain business tax landscape due to the urgent need to raise funds for schools and government operations.


User currently offlinePlaneGuy27 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

I imagine that UA's yield on the IAD-PDX route must be really high. Good mix of business and leisure....plus connex to Europe.

I flew it last summer and it was expensive....but very convenient!

PlaneGuy27


User currently offlineChugach From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1041 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2437 times:

Just a minor sidenote based on personal preference, I really wish AS would change their winter PDX-ANC nonstop to a daytime flight instead of a redeye. I fly this route once every couple of months due to family and I hate taking redeyes. But oh well. The additional summer flights they add on PDX-ANC are definitely nice though!


GO ROCKETS
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2398 times:

Portland doesn't seem to be much of a market for transcons. United only flies nonstop from Dulles once a day and only uses a 319

Right on....traffic in PDX is predominatly north/south...has been that way for a long time. There's always been some flights to the east coast, but mainly to SEA and points in California.

I imagine that UA's yield on the IAD-PDX route must be really high. Good mix of business and leisure....plus connex to Europe

Absolutely...when my Dad worked for UA in PDX before he retired, he was told by station management that PDX-IAD had overtaken ORD as the most profitable route for UA in PDX. However, that's based on through traffic generated through IAD, not PDX. I recall when PDX-IAD was being considered, then launched seasonally, then made year-round. I believe in the summer there are two PDX-IAD flights, one of which is/was a 757. I flew it in 2001 and was packed.

I presume UA is still routing people to Europe on the IAD flight, however...UA also makes money through the code share on the LH flight...so UA is providing a lot of Europe-bound traffic on the LH flight first out of PDX, then via IAD and ORD.


User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

StevenUhl777:
How do you know most of PDX's traffic is north/south?? Do you know how many people make connections out east? Any idea how many people have to fly north/south to get east?? That statement is not a very good one, simply because airlines like UA, AS, WN, HP, F9, and DL mostly fly people north/south...but who stays in LA, SFO, OAK, PHX, SLC, DEN, SEA, YVR, and SAN ??? Who connects east, and who stays?


25 StevenUhl777 : Sure, there are people who continue to points beyond SFO and LAX, but look at the frequency of flights on a dialy basis on WN, UA, AS, HP...most are t
26 KWBL : StevenUhl777: What do you mean PDX would be in a better situation because of the runways? AS739x I respectfully disagree in that I do not buy the argu
27 Post contains images Qxq400 : QX and AS are under the same unbrella Alaska Air Group. We are the same cpmpany with 2 seperate divisions. We all work for the same goal. and all our
28 Darrell : StevenUhl777: I am also slightly confused about your statement "PDX would be in a better situation if they had north/south runways, but the wind patte
29 Flashmeister : I live right under the approach for Runway 03 at PDX. It's pretty common to see the props line up for landing most days around here. On the rare thund
30 S12PPL : Darrell said it best on the runways question. I have been flying out of PDX since I was born, and to this day, have only landed on 3/21 one time in my
31 Tango-Bravo : Just a minor sidenote based on personal preference, I really wish AS would change their winter PDX-ANC nonstop to a daytime flight instead of a redeye
32 Chugach : Tango, That actually confirms what I've thought for quite some time but didn't want to say. I've often thought that part of the reason the PDX-ANC non
33 PDXFlyer : I am platinum on Delta and fly out of PDX (work for an east coast publisher) several times a month. Going east from Portland is a big pain in the behi
34 Stirling : http://www.portofportland.com/SelfPost/A_2005215933122005-Jan-wstat.pdf If anyone should question the profability of Lufthansa's PDX-FRA route, just t
35 AS739X : Stirling -LH hubs FRA/MUC 186 miles -BA hubs LHR/LGW 25miles ASSFO
36 Flashmeister : Stirling- That's a very interesting document. Did anyone notice that the number of commercial operations at PDX in January 2005 (16,544) was still low
37 StevenUhl777 : StevenUhl777: What do you mean PDX would be in a better situation because of the runways? As *most* of the inbound/outbound flights are coming from/go
38 Doug_Or : StevenUhl777: it would change nothing. If half flights are going/coming from north, and half are going/coming from south, then north/south runways, wo
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