Tripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4314 times:
Too bad the major LCC are not included in this data sheet. I think it is also interesting to look at RPK's. In my opinion this is a more important statistic. If you look at RPK's, it is interesting to see that AZ, SK and IB score relatively low as compared to AF, BA, LH and KLM.
When you take into account the AF-KLM as one, they are the largest airline in terms of passengers by far. Almost 65 million!
BCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4252 times:
I am also disappointed to see that BA is being left behind by both LH and AF. However, when you consider that BA has competition on home ground from VS and bmi, does AF or LH have competition from other legacy carriers based in the same country?
Apart from LCCs and charter airlines I cannot immediately recall any other German or French FCC that could pose threats to LH or AF.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
Teva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4179 times:
Bcal, for AF, I can give you their main competitor:
SCNF, with their TGV high speed trains.
AF does't fly to BRU anymore. The Thalis train is just faster and cheaper.
MRS , LYS and NTE have lost a lot of traffic at the arrival of the train
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
Pe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19548 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4100 times:
I don't think the results particularly surprising. It actually adds to my theory that, in time, there will be three main airlines operating on a hub-and-spoke system in Europe LH, AF/KL and BA - with the point-to-point flights being operated by (at this time, an indefinite number of) low-cost, no-frills airlines.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3847 times:
I agree that now, we must consider AFKL together, not AF alone, or not KL alone.. but why AF+KL+AZ ??? it doesn't make sense to add AZ.
I added AZ to the AF+KL numbers so as to compare with a possible merger IB+BA. It is known that there have been talks of AZ getting together with AF+KL, and BA with IB, but nothing official or concrete as yet.
Here is the TOP 15 list, including AF+KL merged (in terms of pax, 2004)
1. AF/KL 64mil (44+20mil)
2. LH 48mil
3. BA 35mil
4. IB 25mil
5. AZ 22mil
6. SK 20mil
7. TK 11mil
8. LX 9mil
9. OS 7mil
10. TP, BD 6mil
12. AY, JK, OA 5mil
15. VS 4mil
Interesting that TP made its way up to the top 10; surprised to see VS at the bottom of the list!
FlyLondon From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3724 times:
If you draw up a list of the top ten in terms of RPKs it is much closer:
1. Lufthansa 109469
2. Air France 106830
3. British Airways 106463
4. KLM 63002
5. Iberia 45765
6. Alitalia 33860
7. Virgin Atlantic 30080
8. SAS 24022
9. Swiss 20532
10. Austrian 17529
And then take these figures to calculate average revenue kilometres per passenger:
(Kilometres per passenger)
1. Virgin Atlantic 6950
2. KLM 3102
3. British Airways 3003
4. Air France 2398
5. Austrian 2300
6. Lufthansa 2268
7. Swiss 2210
8. Iberia 1773
9. Alitalia 1520
No surprise that VS is on top given that they only fly long-haul but it seems that both BA and KLM fly a greater proportion of their passengers long-haul than AF and LH who carry more passengers in Europe. In the long-run this bodes better for BA and KLM as profit are made in long-haul and not inntra Europe. Plus when you consider that VS creams off a large proportion of the long haul traffic from BA things don't look so bad.
Icarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
Thalys between Paris and Brussels is not a real competitor for AF : at least one railcar of some of the Thalys are reserved by AF.
You can also book a ticket to BRU with AF : it'll be a train ticket!
LH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3430 times:
Quoting Teva (reply 5): Bcal, for AF, I can give you their main competitor:
Yes, but unlike the competition between BA and VS, you can't take the TGV from PAR to NRT or JFK. Similarly, you can't take VS from LHR to EDI, however they do have trains. At the end of the day, domestic flights are small potatoes compared to long-haul where BA and VS compete.
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Hardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3215 times:
it seems that both BA and KLM fly a greater proportion of their passengers long-haul than AF and LH who carry more passengers in Europe. In the long-run this bodes better for BA and KLM as profit are made in long-haul and not inntra Europe
I'm not sure AF and LH are not stronger than BA in long-haul flights. In addition, it shows that, different from BA, LH and AF managed to maintain their intra-European dominance. BA's fall in the intra-European market may just preclude its decline in the intercontinental market.
It also means that BA needs to implement new business management decisions, including the go-ahead to merge with another European airline: IB.