Mig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 175 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3027 times:
G'day all,
I have been wondering for a while what people think of Croatia Airlines size?
Are they being too careful? Looks like that at the beginning of the northern summer OU will operate a total of 12 aircraft
A320 x 4
With Air Adriatic now operating 4 or 5 MD82's Dubrovnik airlines, if they kick off this year, hope to eventually operate up to 7 MD82's by 2007 and Trade air Croatia starting charter flights with two F100's. The proposed combined fleet of these newer Croatian operators may out number OU who have been around for fifteen years and doing well.
With predictions that Croatia will overtake the Czech Republic this year, in terms of number one tourist destination in Eastern Europe, you wonder why OU never expanded into these markets as aggressively as they seem they could of.
OU are making profit and that is a good argument to say they are doing the right thing but when you look at OU's regular flights you cant help to think they could be a little more experimental and try expand a little more rapidly. Its almost like they are being way too careful.
Also wouldn't mind people thoughts of OU going to Canada USA or even south America. Keep in mind that North and South America have a large Croatian population and with Croatian fast becoming a popular holiday destination, seasonal and low key all year round flights just might work???
Well, these are my thoughts, will appreciates any comments
Oh and maybe even a kangaroovic route (Zagreb to syd/mel) using the um lets see, will let you all use your imagination for that one... Would like to hear.
Thanks.
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
The_Greq From Netherlands, joined Sep 2000, 179 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2982 times:
I don't know really much of OU, but during my work as loadcontroller for OU I've experienced that 80% of the Zagreb-Amsterdam (and return) pax are interline pax. Almost everybody is transfering with KLM to JFK and DTW.
So especially for the summer I can suggest a 3-weekly flight ZAG-JFK.
CB777 From United States, joined Sep 1999, 1140 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2875 times:
Mig21UMD
I agree with you on OU being too small, You would think after 15 years of service, they would have atleast a couple of wide bodies. OU has great potential, and I dont know why they dont expand enough. The JFK-ZAG route would make a killing, they would have no competition and there is a huge croatian population in northern NJ and NYC. and now that they joined the Star Alliance I dont see them expanding much, everything will be via FRA on LH.
Adriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 337 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2868 times:
I agree that OU is too small. I think they should be at the forefront of making Croatia a great tourist desination.
I think OU should try and establish a Croatia Low cost carrier. They could fly from Stansted and maybe some German locations to Split/Zagreb/Dubrovnik. If they don't I can imgaine that the established LCC will pour into Croatia once they join the EU.
maybe even a kangaroovic route (Zagreb to syd/mel)
Bring back the good old days when you could fly from Yugoslavia to Australia! But this is never going to happen. Vienna is only a few hours on the train from Zagreb or a short flight. A direct flight wouldn't make money. I think the same is true for a flight: Zagreb - New York. I think people over estimate the fesability of that route. The only 'eastern' european airlines (Aeroflot/Olympic excluded) that fly to america are: LOT, CSA and Malev.
Prague - Huge tourist and business centre. CSA have a large route network
Budapest - Large city, 10million hungarians, tourism, Malev has a large route netwrok
Warsaw - Large domestic market, large Polish population in US.
Croatia Airlines doesn't have a large route network. Zagreb is quite a small city (700,000) and tourism is mainly on the coast.
Thats why i can't image any scheduled transatlantic flights. But maybe they could lease planes during the summer for charters...that could make money. If they were to do this i would like to see an A330 in Croatia colours....
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4133 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2762 times:
With predictions that Croatia will overtake the Czech Republic this year, in terms of number one tourist destination in Eastern Europe.
I'm glad Croatia finally reclaims its well-deserved place as No.1 tourist destination.
I'm not sure if presence of an expat community in country XY is a sufficient sole reason to launch a route. Unless, of course, we are talking about large expat communities of already huge nations such as Indians in the UK/US, Turks in Germany, Chinese in the US, etc.
As far as OU's size... I'd see the fact that they are making profit as more important than its size. And also how they will manage to cope with anticiapted "invasion" of LCCs.
Unfortunately any thoughts of long-haul expansion are, I think, rather unrealistic. I don't think LH+OS will let them do it. Ditto. for Adria.
9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1570 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2714 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
and just to mention while I am here
there is a significant rise in cargo traffic this year
Il-76 have now migrated to Croatia and they can be seen at Pleso nearly every day and OSijek airport is finnaly getting some traffic
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
Jamman From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2704 times:
Back in the 80's I went on vacation to Croatia, landed at Pula and staied in Porec, i went on a 732 with Aviogenex from Manchester, I suppose thats where the aviation thing started for me. I don't remember much about the flight I just remember the airport being like a shack on the edge of the apron!
Still Croatia was a lovely picturesque country with towns and villages full of character, it would be great to go back there and I'm sure Croatia Airlines could capitalise on that and make a packet!
James.
We know why you fly....cos there's something speical in the air?
CroFlight From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2571 times:
Croatia Airlines was, back in 1994, planning to start direct transatlantic service with their own DC-10. I was working at ZAG airport at that time, and I remember the printed OU flight schedule with ZAG-JFK route, marked with "subject to government approval"... and than the delivery of DC-10 was "...delayed one year...".
I think that this was a political decision at that time.
And than "Air Croatia" appeared, in cooperation with Northwest Airlines... they were planning some long ranges, with DC-10's, but they were closed down before the first flight in 1995.
I agree there is a big potential in ZAG-New York route, but if OU will have exclusivity on the whole regular aviation in Croatia, that will never happen (you're right, CB777).
The general manager of Zagreb Airport is still talking about "...soon to be opened direct service with USA....", and that is with Delta. Yeah, sure.
TripleDelta From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2004, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2505 times:
As well as the issues mentioned above, ZAG is not really equipped for regular widebody operations. The apron has only one widebody parking space (excluding the two cargo stands occupied by the 76s 9A-CRO mentioned) and during the tourist season, when many LCCs operate an increased number of flights to ZAG, the apron is full and you can hardly squeeze an ATR in there, let alone something transatlantic. The terminal building is rather small and probably wouldn't be physically able to accept that number of people - 5 medium aircraft and you have a crowd. Not to mention how would the support facilities cope with the increased flow.
Plans are to upgrade the facilities (the terminal building being very high on the list) to more modern tech. Some three months ago, the CAT IIIb ILS became operational, but this had priority because of the very frequent and thick fog ZAG gets during winter.
The only airport able to operate widebodies on a more-or-less regular basis would probably be DBV, though it too is constrained by the apron and terminal building size - not to mention its famous windshear.
As for other Croatian airports, PUY Approach will soon become a radar unit, so that should help in speeding up the traffic flow there.
[Edited 2005-02-22 21:56:48]
EDIT: many other coastal airports near tourist centers are small in size. SPU, for example, has a lot of traffic during the summer months - up to 250 operations per day - on an apron that can hold about 10 commercial aircraft squeezed tightly together. ZAD, on the other hand, is constrained by its use as a military airbase and military flight school (as well as Lufthansa's Intercockpit). The problem, part of which is responsible for the slow OU fleet growth, is that there is simply not enough space to accomodate all those aircraft.
Bananaboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1008 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2493 times:
Quoting Jamman (reply 7): Back in the 80's I went on vacation to Croatia, landed at Pula and staied in Porec, i went on a 732 with Aviogenex from Manchester, I suppose thats where the aviation thing started for me. I don't remember much about the flight I just remember the airport being like a shack on the edge of the apron!
CroFlight From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2428 times:
TripleDelta:
Maybe ZAG is not equipped perfectly, but I have to remind you that airport IS partly upgraded and reequiped since 1980's, when it had quite nice widebody a/c operations: mainly JAT's DC-10's to JFK, ORD, PIT, YYZ, MEL/SYD, than Air Canada with B767, PanAm with A310, as the regular ones. Than, from time to time, Qantas 747's, I also remember Garuda 747 and DC-10, Jordanian L1011, ATA L1011, Lufthansa 744, Tower Air 747, Iran Air 747, ... if it was possible than, it is possible now.
And DBV... remember Air China 744 that blown away some runway?
TripleDelta From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2004, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2401 times:
CroFlight: it is technically possible to accommodate a widebody (I've seen some interesting examples on special flights myself), but back in the 80s there was less traffic overall than now. Last season, the overall number of a/c operations at ZAG surpassed the best prewar years and continues to grow by 10% each season. That's one of the reasons why ZAG got ATIS and *WORKING* Ground Control (that will get its own ground radar very soon, though that is more due to fog that severely limits operations). I've myself had the opportunity of seeing the apron nearly full in the winter low season alone. And throwing a regular widebody service into the mix - could be done but it would be an immense strain on airport services, not to mention that the flight schedule for that particular widebody would have to be tailored so it can arrive in the late evening or during night or any time of day when traffic is low and it can be accommodated with reasonable speed and convenience.
But, at least as I see it, the biggest problem is where to accommodate all those passengers of a widebody once it lands + "normal" passengers of regular medium a/c + the dramatic increase in LCC traffic. 300-something passengers crowding the terminal building... . Not to mention the fact that ZAG and the city of Zagreb are connected only by OU busses that do leave every 15 minutes, but imagine being the 330th passenger waiting for a 50 seat bus for 2 hours
TripleDelta From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2004, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
And regarding the DBV 744 incident - back in the 70s, an early-version 747 blew out all the side lights at a Paris Air Show. I guess its a regular thing then
CroFlight From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2350 times:
Ok, TripleDelta, I have to agree with you.
But, common conclusion is that there is a market (that was, actually, the topic), somebody will have to do it, and ZAG desperately needs new terminal.
There's allways the same fight, what comes first: customers, or offer? Playing safe, and adjusting the service with the growing number is what both OU and airports are doing in Croatia. New terminal building would open so many doors for all...
Good (or bad?) example is Oslo Gardermoen airport: the potential number of users is approx. the same as in Zagreb, but airport is much bigger and will reach it's ideal functionality in the year 2049!
TripleDelta From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2004, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2313 times:
CroFlight: I agree, the market does indeed exist, especially to the Americas and Australia, that all have a substantial population of Croats - and if ZAG or PUY or DBV could support regular widebody traffic along with increased narrowbody, I'd bet you'd have an enviable load factor, especially during the tourist season. Remember from a year or two ago that Air Adriatic (I think) wanted to buy three 742s. Don't know why they didn't proceed with the purchase though.
I saw, way back in the late 90s, a picture of the proposed new terminal in an OU magazine. Looks petty nice and it's shaped like a V with an elongated base, with jetways. Apparently, this design is still actual, as I saw it in the morning paper some months back - though there's little mention of any concrete date for the upgrade. I'll try to find the mag and see if I can find any more details.
I must admit my lack of knowledge about Norwegian air traffic, but your Gardermoen example seems pretty good. Build a big airport and activate it parallel with traffic increase - though at the time it is fully active, it'll probably be surpassed technology and must have cost a lot in the first place... though it would enable a rapid increase in capacity with minimum hold-ups and costs.
CroFlight From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Yes... I saw that design for the terminal also... it was placed on the old website of ZAG airport, but it's not on the new one :-(
It is supposed to be placed on the other side, diagonaly opposite from the today's terminal. But, again, there's no hotels or garage or anything like that planned nearby, at least not in this plans. And these are the elements that make an airport attractive nowdays. Only nice thing is railway and tram connection to the city using the new bridge that is now under construction. And, to make it more interesting, the airport (terminal) will be just 7 km from the city (now 15). I can't find any similar example.
Air Adriatic, actually, claims that they never wanted to buy those 742's, and that the whole story was just a journalist' immagination. The main purpose would be to fly haj flights, and than some transatlantic charters. Those 742's were grounded in Sweden for tech reasons, and I think that we didn't need other people's garbage in Croatia
TripleDelta From Croatia (Hrvatska), joined Jul 2004, 717 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2281 times:
Okay, I found the magazine. It's a dark-blue hardcover issue, named simply "Zagreb Airport Ltd. 1962 - 1997", if you have come across it.
Keeping in mind that the mag is 8 years old, the airport company drew up and expansion plan comprised of 4 stages. The first stage, that would have been completed in 2002., would, ironically, be the building of the new terminal you mentioned above in the same location you mentioned. It would be in the deformed V shape and would have a capacity of 2 million passengers yearly, with a surface area of approximately 33,000 square meters. It would have two floors, the lower one for arrivals and the upper one for departures, where passengers would board their aircraft via jetways. Three widebody stands would be included, to complement the existing terminal and its 1 + 2 cargo widebody stands.
Included in the first phase would be the reallocation of the airforce to a new area, the construction of transport links as you mentioned and an upgrade of all movement areas and devices (at least this has been partly realized with the CAT IIIb, ATIS and ground control).
The second phase, between 2003. and 2010., would have further increased the terminal building area to 46,700 square meters, with a capacity increase to 3 million passengers yearly.
The first two phases would cost a total of 450 million DEM (1.6 billion HRK).
The last two phases don't have a defined development time, but would see an increase in capacity from 10 million in phase 3 to 20 million in phase 4.
The entire plan was conceived with the idea of making ZAG a regional hub and an important crossroad of airways for this part of Europe. The management believed (and rightly so) that the geographic position of ZAG would draw transport companies from Europe, Asia and the US, hence the need for modifications to the airport.
Ah well...
Hmm, I knew I should have paid more attention to that 742 thing when it was happening...
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. Not to mention the fact that ZAG and the city of Zagreb are connected only by OU busses that do leave every 15 minutes, but imagine being the 330th passenger waiting for a 50 seat bus for 2 hours 
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