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ORD Expansion Costs May Have Been Underestimated  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3143 posts, RR: 10
Posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Courtesy: WLS-TV
Video Report Available here as well.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/news/021505_ns_ohare-expansion.html




44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Welcome to America...the expansion will go through one way or the other. The Mayor of Chicago supports it. The Governor of Illinois supports it. BOTH Senators from Illinois support it. The FAA supports it. Sorry all you Bensenvillians, but expansion is coming. Instead of wasting time complaining about it like the parochial participants that you are, why don't you start looking for a new house? The city offered to pay for it already, sounds like a plan to me...

As for being overbudget...just about every major construction dealy is overbudget. It was also calculated a few years back. The anti-realism people just hired a bunch of "aviation consultants" to tell the FAA they are wrong. Sorry boys, that ain't gonna fly. Just look at some the arguments they make and you'll see why.  Big grin


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

Does anyone know if Mr. Campbell's report is available anywhere online? Apparently the Suburban O'Hare Commission's website hasn't been updated since January.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

lol, my calculus teacher is named Mr. Campbell....ok, back on topic. Since the report is full of BS and nonsense, the SOC is probably afraid to put it online.  Big grin

User currently offlineKBUF737 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

If costs were that high wouldnt they just build a new airport?

How much seriously can a new facility cost, 12-15 billion tops?

And thats a real top of the line facility i would imagine.



The tower? Rapunzel!!!!!!
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

Blagoiovich wants to do both. ORD Expansion AND Peotone...I personally think Peotone will be a miserable failure, but that's just me...

User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2977 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Maybe some fool of an accountant forgot that labor costs a lot more in the Chicago-area due to the cost of the heavily unionized construction workers!

Nevertheless, I hope the project goes through in a timely manner because the expansion is really needed.


User currently offlineFlying_727 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 440 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

They better get started soon, other wise in a couple of years Blagoiovich won't be there to help. I know first hand that this governor isn't liked in IL and its a bi partisan decision, as the governor was Booed by students at a SIU basketball game.

If the mayor, governor, and senators don't push hard and fast, it may be the end of O'hare expansion.

flying_727



On ATA, You're On Vacation
User currently offlineMoMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

How about Illinois just pays AA a billion dollars for AA to move all connecting ops to STL. This way ORD won't need to expand (saving $12 billion), there won't be as many flight delays, and the hometown airline (UAL) will become much stronger.

I know I'm dreaming, but the gov't is dreaming if they think ORD expansion is going to be a smooth ride.

Moman



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Let's face it, government projects almost always go over budget. Look at the Big Dig in Boston. Not to mention that the darn think leaks.

The fact that the Governor may lose his bid for re-election does not mean the end of ORD expansion. First, there are Republicans who support ORD expansion that may run for Governor in '06. If you want names, there is Bob Schillerstrom, president of the DuPage County Board, as well as Kirk Dillard, a state senator and chairman of the DuPage County GOP.

Second, the Mayor has a good working relationship with George Bush. This may explain to some degree why the FAA has been so accomodating so far.

Third, Sen. John McCain has made a number of unkind comments about the opponents of ORD expansion, including former Illinois Senator Peter Fitzgerald. McCain and Fitzgerald almost got into a fight on the Senate floor, and Trent Lott had to break things up. Personally, I think the former Navy flyer could have knocked the snot out of Fitzgerald.

My point is, however, that since McCain is chair of the Commerce Committee, he is supportive of measures that will improve ability of the air traffic system to move people in a timely manner, and ORD expansion is a key measure.

Fourth, Speaker Dennis Hastert is from Illinois and a supporter of both UA and AA. An expanded ORD will certainly be help them retain market share within the industry, so he is a supporter of ORD expansion.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3217 times:


Quoting KBUF737 (reply 4):
If costs were that high wouldnt they just build a new airport?


They basically are building a new airport.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting MoMan (reply 8):
How about Illinois just pays AA a billion dollars for AA to move all connecting ops to STL


Haven't TW, and subsequently AA proven through real world experience that their isn't enough O & D traffic at STL to sustain a mega-hub. Consequently, AA would probably stand to lose much more than a billion dollars in the long term if they went back down that road again. IMO, AA's current operation at STL with 200+ flights per day is just the right size for the market.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13518 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3160 times:
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I agree with Beoing7E7, they're basically building a new airport on the only land they can get a hold of close to most of the Chicago market.

Ckfred, nice post. I enjoyed the details.

I think Peotone will work in the long term. It will be like IAD underutilized until the city expands around it and then...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMoMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

Leelaw,

Quoting MoMan (reply 8):
AA to move all connecting ops to STL


You're right about the O&D, but I'm only suggesting they move a good portion of connecting flights only. AA would still have O&D service in ORD. Instead of having a mega-hub at ORD and baby hub at STL, they would have close to equal size hubs at both airports. This would save ORD from expansion, save AA from chronic delays, and I think it would be well received by the traveling public once it they are given a chance to see how smoothly things would work.

Moman



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

Moman:

I'm not sure what you mean by moving, "a good portion of connecting flights only." A mainline hub at ORD and a regional hub at STL, and a shuttle between the two hubs?

Regards


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

Quoting MoMan (reply 8):
How about Illinois just pays AA a billion dollars for AA to move all connecting ops to STL. This way ORD won't need to expand (saving $12 billion), there won't be as many flight delays, and the hometown airline (UAL) will become much stronger.



And give the largest O&D market in the nation to UA??? Not a chance.


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3074 times:

The only problem with cutting the size of the ORD hub and increasing the size of the STL hub is that Chicago is big enough to support 2 major hubs. St. Louis isn't big enough to support one major hub.

In the last 20 years, the metro Chicago area has grown from 6 million to 8 million, and there is no sign of growth slowing down. Housing developments keep going up farther and farther from the Loop, in all directions.

That's why ORD is still a hub for two major airlines.

Peotone will be needed at some point, but there is a need to set up infrastructure before that day. Right now, there is no rail service from the Loop. Both ORD and MDW have CTA lines, and there is a commuter rail line that serves remote parking at ORD.

The other problem for Peotone is that there is no direct highway access from the western suburbs, which has a lot of people and businesses. The extension of I-355 from I-55 to I-80 just started, about 10 years behind schedule. So it will be at least 10 years, before the extension to I-57 and the airport site starts.


User currently offlineMidway2airtran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3044 times:

The expansion is pretty much underway and in the hands of the FAA, it is doubtful that it will be stopped. The critics can only gripe and complain now. Then realize how wrong they were when it gets going in the future. The new runway configs and new terminal should be a great benefit for everyone that flies not only in Chicago, but nationwide.


"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3038 times:

The costs of these projects are ALWAYS underestimated. It's the only way to get them approved. Besides, they forget to add in the neccessary bribes and kickbacks into the final totals!!


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3033 times:

Yeah I'm not surprised. DEN ended up almost double its budget.

The way I see it, the proposed ORD expansion is a bargain at any price. Its an absolutely critical project and the proposed layout is first rate.

N


User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3027 times:

Once expansion completed, the only important thing is to keep ORD safe from mayor's bouldozers, especially at night.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 5 days ago) and read 3023 times:

And give the largest O&D market in the nation to UA???

The largest O&D market in the US is, has been, and likely always will be New York, followed by Los Angeles.

N


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

Quoting Ckfred (reply 16):
the metro Chicago area has grown from 6 million to 8 million


Actually, the 2000 census reports there are slightly more than 9 million people residing in the "Chicagoland" area. I'm convinced that the AA and UA mega-hubs aren't located at ORD by accident, mistake, conceit, or a strange desire to lose money. However, there are vocal participants in these threads from Indianapolis, St. Louis, and elsewhere who sincerely believe that the dual ORD mega-hubs: are just a lot of overkill; unnecessarily cause congestion throughout the rest of the system; and that the proposed expansion/realignment is a costly boondoggle which will do little or nothing to remedy the congestion problems.


User currently offlineMidway2AirTran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2978 times:


Quoting KUGN (reply 20):


Quoting KUGN (reply 20):
Once expansion completed, the only important thing is to keep ORD safe from mayor's bouldozers, especially at night.


LOL!! Good one KUGN..Good thing the mayor supports it so far.



"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2953 times:

Quoting Gigneil (reply 21):
The largest O&D market in the US is, has been, and likely always will be New York, followed by Los Angeles.


IIRC, Chicago is the third largest O & D market overall, but ORD as a single airport has the most O & D passengers by a wide margin.


25 7E72004 : If they did build Peotone; how do they get airlines to start service there??
26 Indy : I can't wait to see how two financially crippled airlines are supposed to pay for this project. And what will happen to this project if they start wor
27 Jsnww81 : I'm excited that we might finally, finally see some dirt moving on this project. I'd be content to see it get underway even without the southern runwa
28 Post contains images KUGN : Perhaps Airbus industries could chip in, making it compliant with A380 specs
29 Boeing7E7 : High Speed Monorail.
30 Airportplan : "If they did build Peotone; how do they get airlines to start service there??" I have attended several air service conferences where airports and airl
31 KUGN : You don't want to travel on Chicago's rapid transit, if you have the choice...
32 AirportPlan : "I can't wait to see how two financially crippled airlines are supposed to pay for this project. And what will happen to this project if they start wo
33 Midway2AirTran : Apparently there is also a third large contributing airline involved in the project; to be announced later.
34 MoMan : I imagine that there is a certain percentage of flights that AA runs through Chicago that are mainly connecting traffic. I am thinking (and yes I rea
35 Ckfred : One of the reasons that ORD is prone to congestion is that every one of the 6 runways intersects 2 other runways. Unless the wind is light and from th
36 Boeing7E7 : Wrong. ORD has the highest O&D traffic of any commercial airport in the United States.
37 FriendlySkies : Well, almost...the smaller northern runways all intersect at two points, creating a sort of triangle. 14R/32L intersects once with 9R/27L, and 4R/22L
38 Gigneil : Wrong. ORD has the highest O&D traffic of any commercial airport in the United States. Irrelevant. Chicago is not the largest O&D market in the US, wh
39 B4real : More info on this please!!!!
40 FriendlySkies : Something tells me it's not a US carrier...just a hunch.
41 Allstarflyer : In my 2+ years of working at O'Hare, I never really took the time to see where the expansion would be. I felt they can't go north because of Des Plain
42 Leelaw : In the "pre-NIMBYAN" age, the first Mayor Daley (Richard J.) seriously advocated building an airport in the lake about a mile or two off the downtown
43 FriendlySkies : True, Leelaw, but that would be out of the way for all suburbs. ORD's current location is perfect for the Chicago area. Allstarflyer: I believe the ex
44 Boeing7E7 : Don't confuse MSA with Market. A single airport is a market. The groupings are the MSA genius.
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