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London Gets Pushed Aside Again  
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6480 times:

CO announces new codeshares exit CDG with AF today.

NW announces new 1 stop service via AMS to Bangalore.

DL will start flying to Chenai via CDG soon.

US/UA working with LH via FRA.


This was all traffic that years ago would have tended to go over LHR.

This is the price to pay when LHR slots are controlled and monopolized. I guess it's worth it?

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6914 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6396 times:

BA actually has less of a monopoly at LHR than LH does at FRA or AF does at CDG. If anything, it's the price of not investing in developing the airport sooner. (A new - short - runway in 2015? Hard to get excited.) But don't be too downcast. With Star and Skyteam these developments would have happened whatever was going on at LHR. And LHR will instantly become the number 1 destination for A380s. It's still a place travellers and airlines want to be.

User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6362 times:
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This is the price to pay when LHR slots are controlled and monopolized

Padcrasher,
LHR slots are controlled by an independent company - Airport Coordination Limited, who also control the allocation of runway slots at other major UK airports such as Gatwick, Stansted, Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Newcastle, London Luton, London City, Southampton and Bristol, as well as Dublin. The slot allocation process is fair and transparent.

Bermuda II and route licensing is a completely separate issue from airport runway slots. Any US carrier is free to apply for LHR runway slots - runway slots are available, maybe not at the most commercially competitive times, but again US carriers would be free to trade slots with other airlines. Obviously US carriers would not actually go as far as accepting slots as currently they would be unable to use them due to current bilateral agreements, and would be unable to retain them under the use-it-or-lose-it policy.

As for monopolised, British Airways hold a far smaller proportion of runway slots, around 41% at their main hub of LHR, than any other US, European or Asian airline you care to mention - most hub carriers account for at least 50%+. Far from a monoploy, BA have stronger domestic-based competition at Heathrow than any other European flag carrier in the from of bmi and Virgin Atlantic. This is in addition to all the international competition, and LCC carriers at other London airports.

The fact is with the strength of O&D traffic from London (LHR and LGW) to the USA, airlines can fill their aircraft with point-to-point traffic, whereas markets like Paris and Amsterdam make more sense for fith freedom onward traffic due to weaker O&D numbers. The fith freedom flights from Heathrow once operated by US carriers have been replaced with increased LHR-USA flying. With Continental/Northwest/Delta all being in Skyteam, it makes far more sense to route this traffic through their respective AMS and CDG hubs.

Detailed information on slot allocation policies, and a listing of available runway slots at various UK airports are available on the ACL website.

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Delta/Continental/Northwest cannot under the current treaty fly to LHR ( by rule or practical effect). They account for 1/3 of all tickets sold in the USA. AA by comparison is 17%. So much of the US market is stuck with with the less lucrative LGW.

So as a result we have the US placing restrictions on alliances with BA/VS and other US carriers. This result is the UK seeing less and less Transatlantic feed to Europe and beyond.

So I assume things are wonderful for BA/VS as they get to charge a premium for capacity limited LHR. I'm not so sure the UK consumer benefits and of course this air commerce just moves to CDG and FRA. Airports that are open to any airline.


User currently offlineAirgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6238 times:

At least CDG is getting the business. And LHR and/or LGW is already getting ALOT of traffic as it is, so maybe it's only best for NW and DL to go into CDG instead of LHR.

User currently offlineAirplanepics From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2003, 2734 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

Quoting Airgeek12 (reply 5):
it's only best for NW and DL to go into CDG instead of LHR

NW or DL have never used LHR, so why start now?



Simon - London-Aviation.com
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6194 times:

Not to mention LGW does not have the connections you need with other major airlines to make it a viable gateway for feed from North America.

User currently offlineSpike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6143 times:

If its just tourists NW and DL want to bring in, then LGW is ideal and purpose built. Sort of Newark as opposed to JFK. Or Orly / CDG. Gatwick thrives on touist flights and these must be deemed to be - a 757 to LHR over the pond? Waste of gate space.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6121 times:

Yes Spike the thread is about London losing air commerce to CDG/AMS/FRA because of of the limitations to competition.

Concentrate..and read slower.


User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6116 times:
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The fact is your argument about runway slots being conrolled and monoplised at Heathrow is completely invalid, and it was your only argument in the thread-starter.

I don't see the relevance that Delta/Continental/Northwest accound for 33% of ticket sales in the USA, as opposed to American's 17%. American and United have a far greater number of flights and range of destinations out of London than any of the above. DL/CO/NW starting LHR flights probably wouldn't give the market any extra cities or frequencies.

So I assume things are wonderful for BA/VS as they get to charge a premium for capacity limited LHR.
As you are aware that American and United also fly to Heathrow. Any advantage that British Airways/Virgin gain from restrictions on the US market from London is equally applicable to American and United.

I'm sceptical about airlines serving LHR charging a premium over LGW - there doesn't seem to be any noticeable pattern in which airport has the cheaper fares at either for similar citypairs.

This result is the UK seeing less and less Transatlantic feed to Europe and beyond.
While Continental/Delta/Northwest can use Air France/KLM for interline connections at AMS/CDG - who would they use at LHR? If your argument is access to interline traffic is a reason, then these airlines are far better served at AMS/CDG. Since none of these carriers are in oneworld/Star Alliance interline opportunities at Heathrow are very restricted, virtually the only connections via their alliances over Heathrow are to AMS and CDG - hardly a useful source of transfer traffic when both these airports have non-stop service to the US destinations already!

The US carriers that don't already serve Heathrow want access for the perceived boost to point-to-point traffic, not interline opportunities. The supposed Heathrow "premium" would all but dissapear in any case if all airlines had access, wouldn't it? Any remaining fare premium would largely be used to cover the more expensive operating costs at Heathrow.

Regards
CROSSWIND


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6088 times:

Quoting Spike (reply 8):
If its just tourists NW and DL want to bring in, then LGW is ideal and purpose built. Sort of Newark as opposed to JFK


EWR being the business airport and JFK being leisure, as per Port Authority figures.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offline747firstclass From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6080 times:

About 6 months after the US/German openskies was signed an article appeared in "The Economist" where it stated that BA and LHR were already noticing a drop off inb connection from europe to USA via LHR due to the openskieds the US had with Germany and Netherlands. Since that time France has an openskies with the US. I think it is safe to say that there has been still more erosion of the Europe-USA connectiing passengers that BA and LHR used to have.

To try and stem that, some BA european flights were moved to T4 to make it easier for them to transfer to flights to and from the USA.

I am of the firm conviction that in the end, it will be the loss of more connecting passengers that LHR will be opened to all US carriers.especially now that India and USA have an openskies and the potential for BA vto lose still more transfer business. The India transfer passengers are extremely lucrative for BA.


User currently offlineSpike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6019 times:

Is that true that Newark has more 'business' flights than JFK? I wouldn't dream of going to New York unless my ticket said JFK. Imagine landing long-haul at Gatwick.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Slots are controlled at LHR. New US entrants are not allowed to fly into LHR.

That's what I call slot controlled and in effect monopolized. If CO/DL/NW could fly into LHR, restrictions on allliances with UK carriers would be lifted. You would see much more codesharing and possibly revenue sharing as Skyteam partners do now.

Another example is cargo. The are entire regions of the country where UK carriers are non players because they cannot align with US carriers as Lufthansa and Air france do.

Hey I'm all for making money. If BA/VS want to keep LHR new entrants out more power to them. Just that this is AMS/FRA/CDGs gain.


User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

Padcrasher there have been numerous meetings over the past decade between the american and UK governments to attempt to 'open up' LHR to all.

There has always, however, been the same stumbling block.....

The US government wants US airlines to have unlimited '5th freedom' rights between LHR and the rest of the UK/europe. So, CO could fly from say EWR - LHR, drop off some pax, pick up some more and fly on to ATH say.

The UK government was happy to agree to these conditions PROVIDED that british airlines would have the same advantage in the US. Ie BA or VS fly LHR-JFK, drop off to some pax pick up some more and fly on to JFK.

Do you think the US government was prepared to play ball on this matter?? No way!


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

EWR:

38% business,
78% O&D,
Average household income $98,200


JFK:

23% Business,
81% O&D,
Average household income $87,600



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

Quoting Monkeyboi (reply 15):
The US government wants US airlines to have unlimited '5th freedom' rights between LHR and the rest of the UK/europe. So, CO could fly from say EWR - LHR, drop off some pax, pick up some more and fly on to ATH say.

The UK government was happy to agree to these conditions PROVIDED that british airlines would have the same advantage in the US. Ie BA or VS fly LHR-JFK, drop off to some pax pick up some more and fly on to JFK.


That's not fair because no matter what Greece is not Britain, where as British Airways flying passengers between JFK and LAX is domestic service.

British Carriers can carry passengers between JFK and Canada or Mexico, that's that same as US carriers carrying passengers between London and Athens.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1619 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (reply 4):
I'm not so sure the UK consumer benefits and of course this air commerce just moves to CDG and FRA. Airports that are open to any airline.


Although only four airlines fly from LHR-USA (ok plus a few others), the competition is rife.

Is it a conincidence that both BA and VS offer flat beds in J class, yet none of the other european airlines do?

BA and VS also offer IFE in all classes longhaul - something which is still a rarity for lots of airlines.

Competition under Bermuda II has alloweed this to happen, and has benfited the consumer.

It is also good for the consumer not based in London area, as a prime concern for the governement is ensuring that slots are available to feed from regional airports into LHR - if everything was up for grabs then many people in the UK could lose out.

It would be nice to open up LHR, but with the current state of play I doubt that it could happen anytime soon


Hurry up runway no. 3!


User currently offlineSpike From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1170 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5911 times:

Monkeyman: excellent point. Isn't that amazing that the US won't be a free market for all when it is the self-proclaimed 'freeest market in the world'. If Easyjet opperated in the US they would knock Herb Keller's socks off!

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16865 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5890 times:

No offense but opening up the US domestic market in exchange for opening up the UK Domestic market is not an even trade, what else you got to offer?..


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5867 times:

But the bottom line is that CO, DL, NW would give anything to fly to LHR.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20636 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

I'm not quite sure why anyone would choose to transfer at LHR these days when so many other more convenient options are available. When the only place you could get to from a lot of long-haul destinations into Europe was LHR, yes, today, no. If I'm heading into London I've always preferred Gatwick anyway, with the Gatwick Express. Similar to JFK. Who cares? EWR is just as, if not more, convenient to get into Manhattan or upstate.

Heathrow has already lost much of its stature as the preeminent connection point in Europe, as AMS, CDG, and FRA have gained heavily in point-to-point and connection possibilities unheard of even a decade ago. Sometime in the future, LHR will open up to more carriers, and the only ones who will really care are those airlines carrying then-devalued LHR slots and routes as assets on their balance sheets. No one else.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5844 times:

javascript:;
Quoting Spike (reply 19):
If Easyjet opperated in the US they would knock Herb Keller's socks off!


Um. No. No they wouldn't. They wouldn't even come close.

N


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4383 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5844 times:

"I'm sceptical about airlines serving LHR charging a premium over LGW - there doesn't seem to be any noticeable pattern in which airport has the cheaper fares at either for similar citypairs."

The premium is not so much in the Coach seats, but rather in the Business and First Class cabins - the loads and yields in the premium cabins to/from LHR are astounding - even airlines with half-baked C/F cabins like United manage to do well flying to LHR. That's why all the Air Kookamongas of the world who can afford/get LHR slots fly there instead of Gatwick.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4260 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5839 times:

What a pathitic post. 'Tended to go over LHR'?. Your routes, Padcrasher do indeed go over LHR. Why can'y US airline's fly to Europe without stopping at Heathrow? Bitch.

Spike, your post is crappy and mean-spirited. Get over yourself and stop stirring the s&@t. I don't always agree with Padcrasher but I can at least handle our disagreements in a mature fashion.



None shall pass!!!!
25 Padcrasher : This competition between BA/VS is a great example of what is going on. They are both fighting tooth and nail for the full fare F class passenger. Who
26 Spike : I disagree. JFK-LHR will always be the world's premium long-haul route and all airlines will covet it. All airlines will also want to connect to it/th
27 Post contains images AeroWesty : Gander and Shannon/Prestwick used to think theirs was too.
28 PlaneSmart : STT757 'No offense but opening up the US domestic market in exchange for opening up the UK Domestic market is not an even trade, what else you got to
29 Padcrasher : Just give at few years. Virgin will employ an attendant in the F class lavatory to wipe the passengers ass with a moistened cotton swab...the competit
30 Monkeyboi : There is an easy way of getting a cheap CLUB class ticket on BA actually. The EU law now allows passengers to purchase their ticket anywhere in europe
31 Spike : In a vfew years, UA will employ a flight attendant with pre-botox face that can actualy smile like a real person.
32 Iluv747400 : What is this supposed mean? Have you ever been to Newark Airport? Have you ever used Gatwick? Clearly not or you're simply being some sort of aviatio
33 Arsenal@LHR : A lot of people are claiming LHR is losing connecting traffic to CDG and AMS, where is the proof of this? Losing a few thousands transfer pax to Paris
34 AeroWesty : Well you can't look at it on purely a number of passengers basis, you have to look at it in percentage terms. Yes, passenger numbers are increasing a
35 Avek00 : "As Crosswind stated clearly, London is a massive O&D market in itself, probably the biggest in Europe." IINM, until recently, LHR had more internatio
36 ZRH : I think the reasons are more the alliances than the slots. DL/CO/NW: Skyteam, then of course CDG and AMS. UA/US: Star, FRA. This simply logical. An On
37 Brons2 : About this price differential...I did some Orbitz and Travelocity searches a few days ago, was looking for fares from any city in the USA I could get
38 AeroWesty : What about MAD for IB? It's just as "central" in geographic terms as AMS in your example, isn't it? There is also the DUB hub for EI and HEL hub for
39 Avek00 : "Oneworld could add ZRH as a central European hub." Truth be told, no one wants ZRH as a hub for anything - all flying to Central/Eastern Europe can b
40 ZRH : "Central" is perhaps a question of definition. Helsinki is far in the north and very remote, not central at all. DUB is also not very central. MAD is
41 Crosswind : I think oneworld would benefit from a central European hub. While London is excellent (in terms of location) for trans Atlantic traffic, for most of E
42 Post contains images AeroWesty : Yes, of course, and we're in agreement on that. My thinking is in terms of a convenient, underutilized connecting point for transcontinental travel,
43 ZRH : I absolutely agree with you. It would be a nigthmare to see all airlines of the German speaking part of Europe in the LH group and Star. There would
44 Padcrasher : I'll look for the connecting data on LHR vs other Euro hubs. But saying LHR is not effected by CO/NW/DL/US not being able to flying in there is just n
45 Arsenal@LHR : I'll look for the connecting data on LHR vs other Euro hubs. But saying LHR is not effected by CO/NW/DL/US not being able to flying in there is just n
46 Post contains links and images AAFLT1871 : Are you Sure? View Large View MediumPhoto © Steve Brimley If that is the case, I will load up on Chili, baked beans, tacos and exlax the night b
47 Padcrasher : As I mentioned earlier DL/CO/NW account for 33% of all tickets sold in the US. If you add in USAir the total might come in at 40%. Quite a bit larger
48 TeamREGAL : Oh it's true...and in many cases, both business and casual travelers choose to fly to EWR because of it's accessibility to NYC. BTW, how are things i
49 STT757 : Opening up the entire US Domestic market the largest aviation market in the World in exchange for landing rights at one airport is ridiculous. Here's
50 Avek00 : "Here's a better idea, the EU and US agree to open skies between Europe and the US. Allowing any carrier to fly any segment between the US and EU, dom
51 Lockheed1011 : Why do you think Virgin Atlantic came out with the slogan "BA/AA, no way!" LHR benefits only the Oneworld Alliance!
52 Speedbird2155 : VS came up with 'No way BA/AA' cause it was seen as a treat to VS and it was also gave Sir Richard publicity from doing it. LHR doesn't only benefit O
53 AngelAirways : I Disagree. The EU has become as competitive as it is today thanks to open skies and cabotage. If it were not for cabotage, Ryanair would just be a s
54 Scotron11 : I tend to agree that the situation at LHR is terrible. I also think the government is being very short-sighted by dragging their feet and not agreeing
55 STT757 : Offering up entrance to Heathrow for a couple US airlines is not an equal trade off for opening up the US domestic market, the market for US carriers
56 Incitatus : This is a CLASSIC negotiation tactic. Bermuda II benefits the British carriers because it keeps DL, NW, CO and part of AA away from Heathrow. It is i
57 Post contains links and images Incitatus : The slot controls are a consequence of underinvestment. LHR wouldn't function if all airlines that wanted to fly there had as many flights as they wa
58 Post contains links and images Deltabobo : View Large View MediumPhoto © Steve Brimley The photo was taken in the early 1970's. At that time, Delta had a codeshare with Pan Am flying from
59 Crownvic : Those airlines were worried that they would have an encounter with Andy Martin!
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