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British Airways No Longer Europe's Top Dog.  
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9727 times:

British Airways no longer Europe's top dog: A year ago, British Airways was Europe's biggest carrier. But then there was the Air France-KLM tie-up last May, which pushed British Air down to No. 2. And now, Germany's Lufthansa has overtaken BA as the continent's second-biggest airline, by passenger volume. source(USAToday)

Interesting.

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBCal DC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9643 times:

Big don't necessarily mean best, or "top dog" as you put it.
I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders, rather than size.

I'm sure if its only goal in life was to be the biggest, it would adopt an aggressive takeover strategy, and throw money it doesn't have at loss making routes and buy millions of planes.

Ask what you'd rather fly on - BA, AF or LH? I know which I'd choose, every time.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 2, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9615 times:

Well in terms of passengers carried, BA lost the title to LH and AF a couple of years ago. I'm assuming they must have now been overtaken in RPKs. As someone who used to do the traffic stats for IATA, I can tell you that in terms of passenger numbers this has not just happened last year.

Bcal DC10 is right though, BA don't care about being the biggest any more - they could persue a strategy to do that if they wanted, but as a private company, profitability is far more important.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9633 times:

BA's passenger numbers have been diluted so much now as so many parts of the BA operation has been turned into '100% BA owned subsidiaries' or 'franchises'. These subsidiaries figures (such as BA citi-express bases at MAN/BHX) are not included in BA passenger number figures. I think things are changing and consolidating so quick in european aviation that the 'top dog' will change as often as you change your socks!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) It is looking like Lufthansa will take over SWISS soon and i'm sure BA and Iberia aren't too far away from a merger either. Then you have Alitalia looking to join the KLM-Air France family; Olympic on the look out for a buyer.....

User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9601 times:

Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):


Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):
I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders


What about it's passengers mate. Forget the shareholders. Given the option of travelling with Air France or BA at the moment. I know which one I'd chose and I don't even speak French.

Au revoir mon ami.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9535 times:

All businesses exist to make a profit, except, of course, not-for-profit organisations. Accordingly, I think that it is important to consider it in that context rather than in size. However, it could also be important to consider many other factors leading up to profitability, for instance efficiency, treatment of stakeholders, market share, and so forth.


"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9527 times:

What about the market share, in today´s world you either grow or you get smaller and at the end the profits follow that same path. I think BA is getting increasingly too dependent on the US market, and no company should ever be so dependent on any one market regardless of which one it is. (I wonder how BA is sorting out this year with sales in very low USD and salaries in very high GBP). BA used to be the airline you flew where ever you needed to do business, sadly (as I am a big BA fan) it just isn´t that way anymore. Service standards are getting much better in AF and LH so the differential there is very little now and unfortunately BA does not offer any more as good connections and to as many countries as the competition does.

User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9508 times:

BA is much more restricted in terms of capacity than AF or LH because their main base is LHR. There is simply no more room to expand. If BA wishes to start up another route, to say the far east, after all the wrangling with bi-lateral agreements and deciding whether BA or VS or BD will fly the route BA then has to use one of its existing slots.

User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9480 times:

....and as for service standards.....

I can't comment on AF, but I just had a look at one of LH's 'new business class' beds. What a joke, looks more like a machine of torture. Flat indeed, but at such an angle it looks awful!


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9443 times:

Well, I'm sure Mr. Richard Branson will be happy with these news. It seems like he is always waiting for a chance to poke BA in the eye.

User currently offlineBCal DC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9435 times:

I agree re. capacity. I'd like to see BA using more regional hubs than relying too much on LHR, which is proving to be a right pain in the arse, and I can't see T5 making it any easier. So many people have to schlep down to London to go anywhere outside Europe who would much rather go from their local airport.

Flying anywhere in the world these days from the UK regions, its just as easy to fly AF to CDG and fly on, or LH to FRA and fly on (or KLM as I did last month, to MNL via AMS) than it is at LHR with BA.
I've not tried AF or LH in economy (only in J), so can't comment on their service - is it better than BA now?


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19259 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9424 times:

Quoting Juventus (reply 9):
It seems like he is always waiting for a chance to poke BA in the eye.


And rightly so: VS competes against BA and must take advantage of the presented opportunities and must, indeed, create opportunities itself. BA should do it to its competitors, too.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9412 times:

Way to go Old Europe!

User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9407 times:

BA in economy is still better than AF and LH. Move to business class and the gap gets wider....


Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineBongo From Colombia, joined Oct 2003, 1863 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9409 times:

Quoting BCal DC10 (reply 1):
Ask what you'd rather fly on - BA, AF or LH? I know which I'd choose, every time.


AF by far of course.  Big grin

Seriously, I was about to ask what is happening in BA, they are dropping many destinations, like BOG an CCS... I know they have to have profits, but that flight was always full...don't You think so?



MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9367 times:

I don't think BA is concerned too much with VS's 30-odd aircraft operation from LHR to its handfull of routes. Indeed bmi is still the second biggest UK carrier. BA/VS/BD all face the same problem with expansion at LHR - ie capacity. BA and VS have such distinct products and ways to do things that both seem to retain their loyal following.

BA seems more concerned with the likes of EK/QR/GF and now Etihad. These carriers are very agressive in terms of pricing and advertising in the UK and also have excellent on-board services. Especially EK. It has taken so much business from BA on routes to India, SE asia and Australia via its Gulf hub and continues to expand at an astonishing rate.

I think in the future BA and VS will become closer in business. I think they will adopt a policy of 'friendly competition' (if it exists??!!) in order to protect each other from the state subsidized US carriers and agressive middle eastern carriers.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9364 times:

Well the Lat Am destinations are now IB territory - for BA its better to feed through MAD and use valuable slots for other destinations.


Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineMonkeyboi From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 457 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9336 times:

Bongo, as has been written in numerous other posts here, BOG and CCS while having good loads, were losing money. BA took numerous steps in order to try and make the route profitable including moving the flight from LHR to LGW, re-timing it and eventually moving it from a B777 to a B767. But the end result continued to be the same.....it lost money and did not feed enough passengers onto other more lucrative BA flights. The large majority were OD VFR traffic (origin-destination visiting friends & relative passengers) and Club/First passengers were very few and far between.

User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9314 times:

Bongo, a full flight doesn't mean that you are making money from it. BA is a business and if a route isn't profitable, then there is no reason to operate it, just to say that you fly to X destination. That's not good business sense.

BA might not be the largest in terms of size, but we must be doing something right and better than AF and LH based on the large number of transfer passengers we get from both Germany and France and the rest of the EU on a daily basis.

Despite what is said on this forum, the reality is there are still many persons out there who value BA and the service we provide.


User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9278 times:

Monkeyboi

you are right about BA and VS woring closely together. They already in fact do this and help each other out when needed...as with the 3x week BA127 which is only operating so as to secure those slots VS. Once VS is able to use these slots, then the BA127 will stop.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9281 times:

BA do provide a good service - and they are a business. Their Lat am network has always been weak, so it makes sense to give IB the passengers for routes that are their strength. That's what a successful alliance is all about. BA can then concentrate on routes that do make financial sense.

Size in the airline industry is not everything - you only have to look at some of the US majors right now to realise that it doesn't necessarily equate to financial strength.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlinePilot kaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9228 times:

Indeed bmi is still the second biggest UK carrier.

I heard Easyjet was the UK's second biggest?


User currently offlineBCAL From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 3384 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9154 times:

BA has a very difficult task. It is a public limited company and therefore answers to its shareholders, who wish to see profits and capital growth. To achieve these it must deliver a quality product - i.e. a quality service that appeals to many passengers whether they fly economy, premier economy, club or first class.

BA is under attack from all directions: It competes with other UK airlines on both long haul routes (VS and now bmi) and bmi plus the LCCs on its European/Domestic network. It competes against the subsidised US airlines across the Big Pond. It competes against the likes of Dubai Inc and their bottomless purses, and the Asian carriers on its Asian and Australian network.

BA does not have the umbrella protection of the British Government. If rights to fly new routes from LHR become available, it has to compete with VS and bmi. Imagine Air France having to compete with Corsair or AOM if new routes come up at CDG, or Lufthansa competing with Air Berlin or LTU if new routes come up at FRA. To make the competition tougher, AF and KLM merged and soon we might see LH merging with another major European airline.

I cannot understand why so many people, British people in particular, wish to knock BA. For me I am proud that it is my national airline and it will always be my first choice airline. It might no longer be the largest (or "Top Dog") in Europe, but it delivers a consistently high standard.



MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
User currently offlineBogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (9 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 9091 times:

Monkeyboi, I am ( or was as I am not able to fly BA anymore out of BOG) a Gold member on my beloved BA. And the story about the route here is very different to what you have said. The flight was moved to LGW together with all other Latinamerican routes as a company strategy and was the last one to move back to LHR as it was the only one that was able to make some money out of LGW. The flight though was never re-timed (well maybe half an hour) and then went to the 767 which almost even lost me as a customer on such a terrible aircraft. There were two unfortunate events in CCS than cost BA a lot of money, one the mudslides and the other was the general strikes. So in general having most of the pax ex-BOG and not having a direct stop was the real reason. The last manager and who I knew personally said that the costs involved in stopping in CCS including that of having two sets of crew for so many days to operate this flight were very high, and that the unions would not agree to just a fuel stop in BGI on the way back to LHR to be able and make a direct BOG (as you must be aware the almost 8500 ft that BOG sits at, require special performance or low weight for take off). For many non London bound pax the stop in CCS was simply a no go, as the other carriers that operate to BOG do it non stop. It is very sad for me indeed, as I will still be going to London constantly and I have now switched to AF, who immediately BA retired from BOG, stepped up to daily flight direct from BOG. I have special feeling towards BA after so many flights with them, and now seeing the AF adds that say "looking at the UK from a different point of view, we now fly daily to Bogota" is very sad. Good luck BA and hope to see you around here again at some time.

User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (9 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9079 times:
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Quality not quantity. As far as service goes, BA IS a top dog airline, not just in the UK/Europe, but the world. As far as size goes, AF/KLM are two airlines merged together, one expects it to be bigger than BA. BA faces competition and financial challenges like no other airline in Europe.

UK Domestic/European competition with BMI
International competition with VS (from the UK-LHR)
Int'l competition from Europe, LH, AF, KLM etc to North America
LCC's, Easyjet, Ryanair etc.
Government-protected US airlines/Chapter 11 safety net
Competition to other parts of the world, particularly, Asia/ME against other flag carriers.
High costs - new security measures paid for by BA itself, fuel rises, insurance cost rises..etc
Operating from a slot-contrained airport like LHR with limited opportunity to grow at a rate of it's competitors like Lufthansa or Air France.



In Arsene we trust!!
25 Rtfm : Bongo: as for 'dropping many destinations', you only list CCS & BOG - how about listing the ones they are starting - PVG (Jun '05), BLR (Oct '05), VNO
26 Btblue : BA.... I keep hearing this rumour of BA merging with Iberia, is this really going to happen? Heathrow is limited in terms of slots - why have BA not c
27 Gofly : Depends how you define '' big ''. I think what was meant to be said was bmi is the UK's second biggest full service carrier Regards
28 PM : Er, explain, please.
29 Richard28 : PM, there were lots of discussions on this a month or so ago, where BA and VS were unhappy that they were competing against reduced ticket prices on n
30 Scotron11 : BA are a world-class airline and have been for a very long time. Their presence in SA was largely the result of their purchase of BCAL. If the drop th
31 Post contains images Airgeek12 : Yea, I saw that one coming. Lufthansa is a great airline, or at least from what I hear about them. They serve ALOT of destinations worldwide, and have
32 VS11 : LH is reaping and will continue to do so the benfits of their strategy to open up an hub in Munich, which was a very smart move. They do not have a bo
33 Bogota : Come on, ease off, you BA guys are taking it too dearly. It is just a constructive criticism, I hope BA policies pay off, but for the time being it lo
34 PyroGX41487 : BA IS a top dog airline, not just in the UK/Europe, but the world. That's a little bit arrogant of you to say, and I really don't think your example
35 United Airline : What about in terms of RPMs and RPKs? I suppose British Airways is still bigger than Lufthansa right????? And I suppose BA is Europe's largest single
36 Dalavia : I agree. If BA's ground staff have treated many of its passengers in the rude, dismissive and arrogant manner that they have treated me on my last fe
37 Arsenal@LHR : That's a little bit arrogant of you to say, and I really don't think your example of BA vs. BMI has much of anything going on it. Like it or not, BA h
38 Shamrock_747 : British Airways is a profit making organisation which must answer to its shareholders. Debt and costs must continue to be reduced whilst the network i
39 PyroGX41487 : Claiming that BA is the top airline in the world when facts clearly point otherwise. Sure, it's a matter of opinion but it sounded somewhat arrogant t
40 Qantasclub : BA is still simply the best 'mega-airline' in Europe. On all my BA sectors, I must say that the staff have been consistently friendly and professional
41 RTFM : PyroGX41487: Then by your own argument BA is a 'top dog' airline - it pays it's bills. Because it focuses on generating profit in order to do so and t
42 Speedbird2155 : As for BA, it's a pretty nice airline, but I just don't see the quality people are talking about. Talk to any of BA's loyal customers and they will po
43 SpeedbirdEGJJ : @ Pyro, you have given me a good laugh to start the day with, Surely the decision to break with the norm, within any business, should be to improve th
44 Hardiwv : Here is the list of TOP airlines in Europe (pax number/year 2004). BA comes only in third, far behind LH, and AF-KL: 1. AF/KL 64mil (44+20mil) 2. LH 4
45 AIR MALTA : I have to say that BA's product is far better than AF or LH in Economy. The last 3 months I have flown the 3 airlines intercontinental and nobody matc
46 Sebolino : I think BA's (correct) strategy is to go for quality and profits for its shareholders It happens that profits for the shareholders is often in contrad
47 Cornish : Hardiwv - should have mentioned that those are the top full service carriers in Europe. Both FR and U2 carried over 20 million passengers last year so
48 United Airline : What about RPMs and RPKs? Is BA still leading?
49 Pe@rson : "Both FR and U2 carried over 20 million passengers last year so should come around sixth." FR carried about 27 million, actually.
50 Juventus : BA would make a nice marriage with Aer Lingus. I've said before, but nobody agrees with me. You guys usually turn it political. That would put BA back
51 AngelAirways : BA is living up to its quality reputation in all areas except long haul economy class legroom, but then again, the fares are dropping. Meanwhile, this
52 Shuttle3echo : In my view BA are a powerful brand that people know and trust.I have always flown BA and over the years they have proved to be the best in terms of sa
53 Airbazar : But their quality reputation is just that - reputation. There are many other airlines in Europe that offer similar quality, some even better quality,
54 PyroGX41487 : Um hello? This proves it: Here is the list of TOP airlines in Europe (pax number/year 2004). BA comes only in third, far behind LH, and AF-KL: 1. AF/K
55 Monkeyboi : BA in no way aspires to be Europes biggest airline. For those of you whom work for BA or read reports from BA directors etc, you will be aware of BA's
56 LH423 : PyroGX41487: I have no idea what your problem with BA is but your arguments have no rationale. And your knowledge on why Concorde is no longer flying
57 FlightLover : BA has a good network to North America but I do have to agree that their European expansion (current operation) could do much better. As far as I am c
58 Cornish : Also remember that BA has a strong long haul competitor (Virgin) and short haul (Bmi) at its main hub. LH and AF/KL don't have any sort of local compe
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