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YYZ & Lack Of Airlines  
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5745 times:

Why are there so few international airlines serving YYZ anymore? In the 90's almost every major airline served YYZ and now so few? Where did they go? Will any come back? Are anymore leaving?

Rgds

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRicardoFG From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5720 times:

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?

User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32700 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

That's odd. There sure doesn't seem to be a lack of posts about international airlines at YYZ.  Nuts

As for the answer, it is most likely that in the 1990s, the airline industry changed dramaticlly, and airlines all over streamlined their international networks. Also, many airlines just simply dissapeared, such as VASP and Viasa.



a.
User currently offlinePilotJmartin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5646 times:

I think most of that is due to codeshare? Like the AC/BMI deal and others. Codeshare works well and I think that is why you see few diffrent airlines at YYZ

User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

AI is coming back after more than a decade long break.
rgds
Aseem



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineKLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 697 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5573 times:

I remember flying AI from LHR to YYZ back in '96.. there's an experience I won't soon forget!

User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

Could it possibly be that YYZ landing fees are Exorbitant?!?!?

But the downturn in the aviation industry is also partly to blame I'm sure.


User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

Yeah, maybe a better question about YYZ would be why so many airlines have left. For a city of just a few million people, I'd say Toronto does VERY well with the number of airlines that serve the airport.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?

I don't recall Balkan ever flying to YYZ, even on a charter basis. ATA never flew to YYZ "directly" -- it was only in YYZ as a scheduled subcharter.

YYZ is still blessed with far more competition now than ever and fares are lower than ever. So, in general, good riddance to these largely govt-owned behemoths.  Smile



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5466 times:

I think most of that is due to codeshare? Like the AC/BMI deal and others.


The BMI YYZ-MAN route has reverted back to STAR Alliance partner AC, unfortunately for YYZ spotters. The 3rd BMI 332 that ran this route last summer (while AC had a 767 shortage) will now be used on new MAN-BGI/LAS and planned LHR-BOM services.

I remember flying AI from LHR to YYZ back in '96.. there's an experience I won't soon forget!


In what way? On-time performance?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAirbusfanYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2002, 1434 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5408 times:

Quoting Bartond (reply 7):
For a city of just a few million people,


The Greater Toronto Area is home to approx. 5.5 million residents. YYZ is the the fourth or fifth largest international gateway in North America behind JFK, LAX, and ORD.

International airlines that currently serve Pearson with their own aircraft are;

SU
VV
AF
JM
BA
PK
LH
OS
AZ
BW
CX
CU
OK
KL
KE
LY
LO
MA
MX
OA
S4
MP (summer)
VZ (summer)
LT (summer)
AY (summer)
TC (summer)
AI (starts May 05)

Cheers,
Kaz



t.dot photography
User currently offlineSkySurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5368 times:

I'll agree 100% with what ACYWG said about the landing fees at YYZ, they're horrendous. If memory serves me correct it's one of the priciest airports to land at. I believe the GTAA are thinking of raising the landing fees yet again which will make airline execs squirm and shake their pockets for yet more money. You'd think that in the wake of the downturn of aviation that YYZ would be lowering landing fees etc but nope, they're going in the opposite direction and increasing them year on year. That's probably why we're seeing more regional jets being used by US based airlines...why pay more for heavier jets to land and use the airport when you can send in rj's and get it cheaper, even though they send in more! If you can see past all the AC aircraft then there is a good mix of airlines, but compared to LAX, LHR, FRA, CDG etc then it is somewhat lacking.....my only complaint is that i never get to stay late enough to catch the KLM, LH flights etc. My biggest gripe about YYz is the lack of a dedicated place to spot from now that the old T1 has gone. I only got hassled by the police once while i was there and as soon as i produced a letter from yyznews.com that the airport had sent them (saying it was ok to spot etc) the cop left me alone and skulked off.
C'mon yyz, build a dedicated spot then you won't have to run around the perimeter moving people on and wasting time and police resources. If only they'd take a look at places like MAN and BHX with great facilities!!!!!

Cheers



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineACYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Well, the biggest reason that YYZ has such high Landing fees is because of the bloated 3 billion dollar price tag for the new terminal.

On the spotting side of things, FedEx hill is still a top spot! Though it would be nice if they would have an observation deck of some sort. The parking decks at the old T1 were good, but now theres now area indoors with a good veiw of the field.


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

Iberia, Royal Jordanian, Aerolineas Argentinas, TAP, Vasp, Viasa, Varig, Air Ukraine, ATA, PAL, Balkan, Air India, Swiss, Virgin Atlantic, etc...why did they all go?

I wonder myself about Iberia and TAP since Air Canada doesn't serve that part of Europe directly. Part of the reason some of those airlines don't serve Toronto is the strength of Air Canada since gaining Canadian Airlines route network.

Air Ukraine is now Aerosvit as far as I know and it does serve Toronto. ATA has only served Toronto on a charter basis as far as I know and now is merging with Southwest which doesn't serve Canada so no big surprise there. PAL only goes to the west coast now so nothing against Toronto there. I can't remember Balkan as a regular scheduled service... perhaps it was charter or didn't last long. Air India is coming back in 2005 after loosing market post Air India bombing. Swiss flys into Montreal but doesn't continue on to Toronto because that is where the bigger O&D is for Swiss traffic. Virgin is expected to come back in 2005 or 2006 after only serving Toronto a month or two before SARS... no recent updates on that.

As AirbusfanYYZ points out there are still a large number of international carriers in Toronto, last list shows more than any other Canadian city. In addition Air Canada is serving more destinations with direct service than ever before. I think Toronto is in good shape and with Sept 11 and SARS behind us I would expect more international destinations and international carriers to come. Ethihad, Ethiopian, JAT, and Turkish have shown signs that they are interested in flying into Toronto sometime in the next couple of years.


User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3939 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5209 times:

Consider yourself fortunate. We in Houston would kill for a 10th of what you guys have and we have roughly the same population base.

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5187 times:

Bartond,

Toronto is the 8th largest metropolitain area in North America and has a population of which greater than 50% are foreign born and therefore are likely to have foreign friends and relatives to visit and a high demand for international flights. Only Miami has a higher foreign born population but its foreign born population is more Latin American while Toronto is more mixed leading to greater demand to more places.

To give an idea of the ethnic make-up of the city, take a look at the translations done by municipal services:

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/multilingual/multilang.htm


User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4970 times:

Actually, according to the UN World Urbanization Prospects, www.un.org, the metropolitan region of Toronto is the 5th largest conurbation in North America, not the 8th. In order:

Mexico City: 18.9 million
New York: 17.1 million
Los Angeles: 13.8 million
Chicago: 7.2 million
Toronto: 5.5 million
Philadelphia: 4.6 million
San Francisco: 4.3 million
Washington: 4.2 million
Dallas: 4.2 million
Houston: 3.6 million



"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

Sorry Detroiters, the population of your city is 3.9 million as of 2005. So you're between Dallas and Houston.


"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8287 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4914 times:

Part of the reason some of those airlines don't serve Toronto is the strength of Air Canada since gaining Canadian Airlines route network.

That and the protection from the government. Remember the stink they made when SQ was flying to YYZ? You can count SQ as another airline that dropped YYZ.


User currently offlineYulguy From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

OK, another error. Here is the actual list. I compiled the stats on Excel and here are the top populations in North American urban agglomerations:

Population in thousands:
18934 Mexico
17147 New York
13766 Los Angeles
7181 Chicago
5157 Toronto
4571 Philadelphia
4253 San Francisco
4163 Dallas
4151 Washington
3927 Detroit
3889 Guadalajara
3566 Montreal
3556 Houston
3502 Monterrey
3197 San Diego
3039 Boston
2804 Phoenix
2674 Atlanta
2494 Minneapolis
2339 Miami
2247 Vancouver

So, I don't think that Toronto is over-served by international carriers given the fact that it's the 5th largest city in North American and the largest in Canada.



"Celui qui diffère de moi, loin de me léser, m'enrichit." - Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4867 times:

Another problem is that people who may be 'spotting' and making the assumption that certain airlines are not flying into YYZ (without doing any fact-finding) are disastrously wrong.

I know there are times when I'm driving by YYZ to find a new airline I've never seen before just about to land, or taking off..

Toronto is a big city. If you add in the area's around it (Durham/Peel/Halton/Dufferin, not to mention London/Sarnia Guelph and the southern parts as well) it is quite a large populated area.

We often take for granted how large our city is, given the fact that we are in the top 5 metropolitan areas in North America!

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Toronto has been declared (by I think the U.N.) as the most ethnically diverse city in the world. No wonder it has such a strong international route network. Also add to the fact that in many instances it is the gateway to Canada.

User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 789 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Okay okay, I get the picture about Toronto. It's a great big city, no doubt, and YOW is right in that it's pretty much the gateway to Canada (I'm sure the Montreal-ers will love hearing that). Lots of factors to consider but I guess I'm saying that plenty of carriers fly into Toronto so be thankful for the ones you've got.

Now that we're splitting hairs, you ought to update those population figures for metro areas - Atlanta has over 5.5 million, DFW has over 5.6 million, Houston is close to that, too. Boston's metro area is bigger than 3 million, as well. FYI. Toronto's figures may be a bit low, too, but I'd never understood its metro area to be over 5 million. Wow.


User currently offlineEurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Remember that in the 80s and to some extent the 90s, airlines cared more about prestige than economics. An example is Royal Jordanian, which rarely made money on the Canada runs year round, only during the high season when their Tristars would fully loaded (remember being a passenger many times). They discontinued both Montreal and Toronto because the traffic was low-yield and the low season was bad. I believe IBERIA quit for the same reason.


If there is a will, there is a way
User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

The true goal of any international airport is to have service to as many different countries, either nonstop, or direct.

That definition is quite true at YYZ, where you can get to almost any major European, Asian, and South American city you desire.

Major exceptions at YYZ include Qantas, SQ and others.

If the question is one of lack of foreign metal, well...in this day of code-sharing and alliances, then you may have a point.



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
25 Ktachiya : Texdravid "Have service to many different countries, either nonstop, or direct." Wow, are you a poet. Just jk YYZ is indeed becoming convinient for SA
26 Hardiwv : That's also the case of VARIG which has a full codeshare with AC. Interesting point, it has been mentioned many times that YYZ is a very expensive ai
27 Post contains links and images Olympus69 : Neil, There is one Balkan photo at YYZ in the database, taken in 1993. I don't recall the circumstances - scheduled service or charter. View Large Vi
28 Ktachiya : Hardi Excuse me. When studying about Urban Geography, we have to list the most important city in the world. Your reply got me confused for a moment bu
29 Nwafflyer : US customs out of Toronto? Lack of decent facilities at non-Air Canada gates out of Toronto?
30 EnviroTO : Nwafflyer, Not sure if your cryptic post is a question or not. US customs out of Toronto? There is US customs in Toronto. Lack of decent facilities at
31 Cornish : Problem from Europe is that Canada has long been a low yield market - with maybe the exception of Paris-Montreal. This is one of the reasons that carr
32 Canadi>nBoy : "The BMI YYZ-MAN route has reverted back to STAR Alliance partner AC, unfortunately for YYZ spotters. The 3rd BMI 332 that ran this route last summer
33 MAH4546 : That list makes US cities quite smaller than they actually are. The Dallas metroplex has 5.6M, the Miami metroplex has 5.1M. Though, yes, I agree, To
34 Yyz717 : Neil, There is one Balkan photo at YYZ in the database, taken in 1993. I don't recall the circumstances - scheduled service or charter. Interesting. T
35 FLYACYYZ : 99% certain that Balkan had a very short stay in Toronto in the early 90's. Shortly after pulling out, wasn't there a ressurected Bulgarian airline th
36 Post contains images Yyz717 : Shortly after pulling out, wasn't there a ressurected Bulgarian airline that served YOW via JFK. Weren't they known as JES Air? Yes! There was! I reme
37 RCS763AV : Im surprised no one has mentioned Avianca is planning to start service there. It will be a daily flight from BOG to YYZ, 4x a week operated by Air Can
38 Aviationman : Hi Neil, Jes Air did not fly B-707's to Ottawa. I am pretty sure it was an A310. You are maybe thinking about this Romanian airline (Jaro Int'l....If
39 FLYYUL : Avianca is not going to YYZ. Only on a code-share basis, everything is 100% pure heresay and wishful thinking.
40 YOW : Jes Air flew A310s routed Ottawa-JFK-Sofia. The route lasted about 18 months. The route actually did quite well, but Jes Air wasn't exactly the best r
41 Martinairyyz : Balkan flew direct YYZ-SOF for about 5 years actually......... then they went bust.
42 Post contains images Yyz717 : Hi Neil, Jes Air did not fly B-707's to Ottawa. I am pretty sure it was an A310. You are maybe thinking about this Romanian airline (Jaro Int'l....If
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