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DL Rio Service Still Up In The Air  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 24
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5212 times:

Yesterday, DL filed with the DOT saying they could not start ATL-GIG service on June 1, 2005. DL says the aircraft has been allocated to ATL-SVO. DL filed for ATL-SVO when the DOT failed to respond about GIG in January.

DL has said they would instead like to start ATL-GIG on October 1, 2005 when additional aircraft will be available. However, DL must receive permission from the DOT for this delay.

United also filed an objection to having 5 frequencies taken from it. United first claims that since DL cannot meet the June 1 start date, they should not receive the frequencies. In addition, United is now claiming they intend to use the frequencies by Fall of 2006 for additional Brazil service.

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Interesting development.

I dont think DOT will oppose DL starting the service on 1 October 2005.

UA still has about 14 dormant positions to Brazil so it wouln't affect UA plans for expansion in the Brazilian market. What are possible UA routes to Brazil? ORD-GIG nonstop?

Rgs,


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

UA was vague about their intentions in Brazil. They mentioned the success of ORD-GRU and IAD-GRU which seemed to imply they might add frequency on these routes.

Even if DL successfully takes UA's frequencies, UA will still have nine left. That's enough to easily start another daily flight if UA desires.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33079 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 1):

UA still has about 14 dormant positions to Brazil so it wouln't affect UA plans for expansion in the Brazilian market. What are possible UA routes to Brazil? ORD-GIG nonstop?


Hmmm...fall 2006 is when UA moves into their new international terminal at MIA.

Though it would probably be IAD-GIG, not ORD-GIG.



a.
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4034 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

Maybe the request for delay will trigger competing claims for the frequencies by Continental or American.
Continental could ask for nonstop GIG service from either IAH or EWR - or both with 3 x week IAH to serve the oil industry and 4 x week service to New York.



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User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October. After all, that would still be a year earlier than UA's service, and whether that would even start is another story. UA seems pretty much focused on Asia now.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?

Jeremy


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5107 times:

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL?


They would realocate aircraft, it seems a destination will have servies terminated or decreased.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 3):
Though it would probably be IAD-GIG, not ORD-GIG.


Why? ORD would serve better as connection point towards Asia.

Quoting Incitatus (reply 4):
Continental could ask for nonstop GIG service from either IAH or EWR - or both with 3 x week IAH to serve the oil industry and 4 x week service to New York.


Indeed, Rio has a booming oil business and that may interest CO to open flights to IAH-GIG nonstop.

NYC is also not connected to GIG nonstop, and CO could operate EWR-GIG; NYC-GRU already has plenty of flights with RG, AA, CO and even JAL serving thios route nonstop.

I'm surprised NYC does not have a nonstop connection with GIG, and CO could do this job.

Quoting DAL767400ER (reply 5):
I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October.


Agree with you!

Rgs,


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20751 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5088 times:

Why is this such a surprise? The much heralded securing of the Rio route for DL in another thread was simply the publication of the DOT's Order to Show Cause not to rule the way they did. UA was going to lose authorities if it went through. Of course they would file an objection of some kind. They'd be stupid not to. This is the way it's done.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5088 times:

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?

Jeremy

Delta reduces international flying in the winter, e.g. FCO loses the 2nd ATL flight, ATL-BCN is discontinued, JFK-BCN and JFK-MAD are combined into JFK-BCN-MAD-JFK etc. Overall, during the winter DL needs some 6 or 7 763ERs less. And for summer 2006 season, there is enough time to adjust schedules and free up a domestic-used -ER.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

I think EWR-GIG or IAH-GIG could work, but what about SFO/LAX-GRU/GIG? LAX is a UA hub (servfed by RG, but they have a monopoly in the route anyways), and they can easily connect pax onwards to all over Asia and Australia.

Cheers,

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Quoting SESGDL (reply 6):
What new aircraft will be available in October for DL? They're not receiving new aircraft are they?


DL will be converting some domestic equipped 767's to International configuration in time for the Summer '06 season. This is one of the reasons DL didn't ask for China routes in 2005.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33079 posts, RR: 71
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 7):
Why? ORD would serve better as connection point towards Asia.


So what? That would help the something like five people a day who use UA between GIG and Asia? IAD has non-stops to NRT, likely more O&D, and is a better connector to important markets like BOS and JFK.



a.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 12):
IAD has non-stops to NRT


This clarifies my question.

Please note that Brazil-Japan traffic is considerable and not only 5 pax as you pointed out. As a matter of fact, both JAL and RG fly direct from Japan to Brazil, and significant transit pax to Japan are carried by LX, LH, AC, etc.

Quoting PPVRA (reply 10):
I think EWR-GIG or IAH-GIG could work


I agree. EWR-GIG would my option - CO currently operates IAH-GRU-GIG. Surprising enough GIG does not have a nonstop service to NYC, although NYC-GRU is quite well-served by CO, RG, AA, and JAL.

I would expect than during 2005-2006 CO, UA and DL will increase flights to Brazil. Loads have been very high all over 2004.

I dont think the DOT will oppose DL starting flight to GIG in October rather than June.

Rgs,


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

I call for universal deregulation of the skies everywhere! No more "applying" to government agencies! Freedom for the world's air carriers! Now!

(Doubt that anyone with the power to do so would read this post though... and even if they did, they´d probably laugh and want to lock me up...)



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Quoting Doona (reply 14):
No more "applying" to government agencies! Freedom for the world's air carriers! Now!


Before free skies I call for a complete end in subsidies or any form of government assistance to national carriers. Is this feasible?

Open skies would largely benefit US carriers and some Europen airlines which receive generous Government subsidies. Needless to say, regulation in the aviation market is necessary to create a level playing field.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33079 posts, RR: 71
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (reply 13):

Please note that Brazil-Japan traffic is considerable and not only 5 pax as you pointed out. As a matter of fact, both JAL and RG fly direct from Japan to Brazil, and significant transit pax to Japan are carried by LX, LH, AC, etc.


I realize that. Sao Paulo has one of the world's largest Japanese communities, and both Tokyo and Nagoya have two of the world's largest Brazilian communities.

However, that doesn't mean UA would route a GIG flight to ORD just to get a handful of passengers to Asia one-stop. First off, most Japan-Brazil traffic is going to GRU, not GIG. Secondly, with new visa restrictions, passengers are finding it easier to transfer via Europe. The amount of connections that UA would get GIG-Asia via ORD are minimal that it wouldn't make a case for the service being out of ORD.



a.
User currently offlineTu154 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

Quoting DAL767400ER (reply 5):
I sure hope the DOT doesn't listen to UA's b!tching and let's DL start service in October. After all, that would still be a year earlier than UA's service, and whether that would even start is another story. UA seems pretty much focused on Asia now.



It's a very common practice for competing airlines to file objections over another airlines application for new routes. This is not UA "b!tching" as you say....just standard practice. AA is quite famous for filing objections.



FIRST ON THE ATLANTIC.....FIRST ON THE PACIFIC.....FIRST IN LATIN AMERICA...FIRST 'ROUND THE WORLD.....PAN AM!!
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Is Delta planned on flying non-stop from ATL to GIG or would this be a continuing flight from GRU? To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.

User currently offlinePdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1117 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.


Nope, AA operates a daily MIA-GIG nonstop.

AA used to have daily JFK-GIG nonstop service [which I was a very happy user of], while CO operated EWR-GIG nonstop as well [I actually preferred their BusinessFirst product].

It completely BOGGLES my mind why neither AA, CO or even RG have not re-launched nonstop service to GIG from the NYC area from JFK/EWR. Yes, I have heard the numerous statements, "GIG is a low-yield market", etc., etc.

GIG is an important business and tourist destination for us New Yorkers [and vice-versa] and we want our services back!

Rio de Janeiro is home to the largest, publicly-traded corporation in Latin America, Petrobras, and is the center of Brazil's energy industry, housing regional offices for companies such as BP Plc, Repsol-YPF and Shell. Rio is also home to several important telecommunications and media corporations and houses the offices of several financial institutions.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 16):
Sao Paulo has one of the world's largest Japanese communities


Small correction: Sao Paulo has the biggest Japanese community in the world.

Quoting MAH4546 (reply 16):
both Tokyo and Nagoya have two of the world's largest Brazilian communities.


In fact, Japan has the second or third biggest community of Brazilians living abroad, many of them have dual nationaly Brazilian-Japanese.

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
Is Delta planned on flying non-stop from ATL to GIG or would this be a continuing flight from GRU?


No. This would be a nonstop daily flight ATL-GIG.

Quoting Klkla (reply 18):
To my knowledge none of the U.S. carriers fly directly to GIG from the U.S. now without a stop at GRU.


As stated above, AA flies MIA-GIG nonstop 14 x week.

Quoting Pdpsol (reply 19):
Rio de Janeiro is home to the largest, publicly-traded corporation in Latin America, Petrobras, and is the center of Brazil's energy industry, housing regional offices for companies such as BP Plc, Repsol-YPF and Shell. Rio is also home to several important telecommunications and media corporations and houses the offices of several financial institutions.


Add to that the biggest shipping industry in Latin America - mainly related to oil shipping.

Indeed, Rio also became the biggest receptor in Latin America of congress/events/fairs (in fact one of the top in the world), which normally attracts a business-oriented high-yield public.

I hope airliens resume nonstop service GIG-NYC as soon as possible. As I said, GRU, on the contrary, is extremely well served.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2595 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal (disregarding that pesky Chapter 11 designation  Big grin). LAX would understandably be a bigger market, but Varig does serve that route already (alas, with connecting flights to SFO).

Would be a great China - Brazil connection point, IMHO (it's just that visa situation too...)

Looks like i'm being my own devil's advocate here!


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2646 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

As mentioned above where we may have existing 767s converted to int'l config - here is a speculation that Gigneil and ConcordeBoy and I had discussed once. There are a number (I think 4) 767-300 ER in the domestic cabin configuration for DL. I think they go to Alaska among other places. If those a/c are converted to int'l configuration - we also may see the 767-400 (all of DL's 764s are ER) changed to the int'l cabin configuration. I think this may be a distinct possibility.

B4



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal


UA operated SFO-MIA-GRU some time ago, until it closed its MIA hub.

Quoting B4real (reply 22):
Would be a great China - Brazil connection point, IMHO (it's just that visa situation too...)


You said it all! In fact, RG is planning to start flights to China as follows: GIG-GRU-MUC-PEK (RG got 5th freedom rights MUC-PEK, and services could start in Jul/05).

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
Varig does serve that route already (alas, with connecting flights to SFO).


RG serves LAX, and you need to connect to SFO with UA. Still, RG only serves LAX 4 x week and the flight is always full. I dont undertand why RG has not upgraded the service to daily. Anyone has information in this respect?

Possibly RG's LAX service is connected with its flights to NRT; I expect LAX to be upgraded once NRT gets more flights later in the year.

Rgs,


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4034 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Quoting Johnboy (reply 21):
I'd also be interested to see what others think about a SFO-GRU/GIG flight on United metal


I think:
- The local market, together with BOS, is one of the most promising w/o nonstop service, but not large enough to sustain a flight.
- Domestic connections will be very limited, so it will have to rely on Asia/Hawaii traffic.
- 777 too big, 763 no range.
- UA could slice its 9 dormant frequencies between SFO and LAX and see how it does.
- The other possibility would be Varig put SFO as middle point of a second Brazil Japan flight, e.g., do GRU-LAX-NGO and GRU-SFO-NRT daily. There are no LAX-NGO nonstops currently, right?



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25 N1120A : All 764s are 764ERs. Actually, RG wants to go GIG-GRU-LAX-NGO. The reason they only go 4X right now is because they lost their NGO authority (which w
26 Incitatus : The distance between SFO and GRU is 5625 nm. The 767-300ER starts losing payload beyond 4100 nm still air. On a normal day with moderate winds it wil
27 Post contains images MAH4546 : I'm pretty sure Tokyo's is larger. 12x a week. It's not that hard to understand. I'm sure the yield sucks, and the majority of the money that Varig m
28 Hardiwv : Correct, but apparently UA will start flights LAX-NGO later in the year. RG applied for flights to NGO, as you know the Japanese aviation authorities
29 TWA902fly : So youre telling me they were going to operate ATL-PVG or ATL-PEK with a 767-300ER? TWA902
30 Klkla : As a 1K member that flies to Central and South America I would love to see them serve all their South American markets from either LAX (my preference
31 Alb222 : Why don't you read the topic before you come up with that statement. And read what the response was in answr too.
32 Incitatus : Given the chronic overbooking on the route plus its potential to draw traffic from the West Coast & Asia, if the yield sucks it's because Varig can't
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