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787 To Have Maintenance 'guarantees'  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

The Boeing Co. has revealed new details about required maintenance -- or the lack of it -- for its 787 Dreamliner.

The company is so sure that the composite structure, including the fuselage, of the plane formerly known as the 7E7 will require far less maintenance than anything flying today that Boeing has made maintenance "guarantees" to customers, said Justin Hale, deputy chief mechanic for the 787.



He also said that Boeing has worked with its airline customers to beef up areas around the cargo and passengers doors of the 787, where most "ramp rash" occurs. It is fairly common for jets to be dented and damaged on and around doors when they are hit by ground carts and bridges.

Boeing could take a substantial amount of additional weight out of the 787, Hale said, but airlines wanted those areas reinforced. The savings from less maintenance to repair ramp damage will far outweigh the higher costs of operating a slightly heavier 787, he said.




http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/213167_air23.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/7e7-pic01.jpg

For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines. Reinforcements in critical areas (as I suggested 1/2 year ago & was bashed for) and now maintenance (cost) guarantees. Now they launch it as a selling point. Smart marketing IMO.

Expect some critical info / assumptions / pre conditions in the Airbus/Boeing information to be missing, this is sales talk after all...

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

Thanks for that info Keesje. Not really surprising though. I seem to recall when the 787 was announced, maintenance was one of the concerns amongst the airlines - given the amount of composites the plane was going to have and it seems this concernt hasn't changed much.

But it seems like perhaps Boeing is taking a page from Airbus when it comes to support - and are improving their customer support and marketing.

/Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):
Expect some critical info / assumptions / pre conditions in the Airbus/Boeing information to be missing, this is sales talk after all...


One assumption Boeing slants is the number of additional cycles the 787 will be capable of (versus the A332) due to less scheduled maintenance. Boeing's prediction of 180 additional revenue flights over 12 years is dependent on 3-hour segments, which IMO, few 787 will find themselves on.

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):
For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines.


IMO, it's also a confrimation of Boeing's confidence in the technology, not just composites but the bleedless systems and open architechture. At this point, I suspect Boeing view the composite fuselage to be a non-issue and now they are going on the offensive to tout their advantage.

The composite fuselage concept well predates the 7E7 concept, including full-scale examples of widebody cabins in 2002. IMO this is old news:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/k63211-1.html


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):
For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines. Reinforcements in critical areas (as I suggested 1/2 year ago & was bashed for) and now maintenance (cost) guarantees. Now they launch it as a selling point. Smart marketing IMO.


Wait a minute. Boeing is guaranteeing a improvement in maintainability in comparison to older aircraft which would lead to reduced maintenance costs.
You don't offer guarantees unless you expect you won't have a signficant liability.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5774 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

The reinforcement came at the request of the airlines, not because Boeing felt that those areas were especially vulnerable to more damage compared to metal airplanes.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

What this shows me is that Boeing is finally starting to listen to their customers again (something they had stopped doing in the past few years) with regards to aircraft design. I see it as a good thing for Boeing and its airline partners.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3605 times:

Quoting MxCtrlr (reply 5):
What this shows me is that Boeing is finally starting to listen to their customers again (something they had stopped doing in the past few years) with regards to aircraft design.


Oh bull, more airlines were consulted for the Working Together group than any previous aircraft. The "Boeing lost touch with the world" mantra is being so exaggerated...


User currently offlineAirgeek12 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Nice. That should make the 787 appaeal a greater deal to more airlines. I think the goals and 'features' mentioned in here are the kind-of thing wanted with the 717 a.c.

User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Here Here DFW,

Any aircraft manufacture will consult airlines when making a new aircraft. They're not making the a/c just for the hell of it! Just b/c a select few airlines didn't get their goals met and have a louder voice than most doesn't mean that the a/c itself is not made for airlines. There are add on's and other accessories to a/c that will help the a/c be molded perfectly to a specific airline but to say they only now they are starting to listen, bull $hit!

Thanks again DfwRevolution!

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):

For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines.


How surprising that Keesje would draw such a conclusion. A more reasonable interpretation (or what Keesje would have said had this been an Airbus press statement) is that they are drawing attention to the advantages of this aircraft's new technology.

As Atmx2000 points out, Boeing is not going make guarantees that are going to end up bleeding the company of cash. If anything, Boeing is exuding a bit of confidence in their product.

[Edited 2005-02-24 04:24:28]

User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):
For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines. Reinforcements in critical areas (as I suggested 1/2 year ago & was bashed for) and now maintenance (cost) guarantees. Now they launch it as a selling point. Smart marketing IMO.


Keesje, as you write stuff like if you are on Airbus Marketing payroll, who is surprised by your conclusion?
What is your conclusion on the issues the 380 has? The gear stuff people were talking about?
The 787 is farther away from flying than the 380, so let's just wait until the reveal or the first flight, before you post your weird conclusions here.
The 787 design will be changed a couple of times, this is called "designing a plane", you might have heard of that.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3444 times:

Quoting Keesje (reply 0):
For me this is a confirmation airlines have serious doubts about the maintainability of an all composite aircraft. Boeing is/has taken drastic measurements to convince the airlines. Reinforcements in critical areas (as I suggested 1/2 year ago & was bashed for) and now maintenance (cost) guarantees. Now they launch it as a selling point. Smart marketing IMO.


Interesting, but somewhat questionable conclusion, drawn by Keesje. First of all, looking at performance cars, power boats, sail boats, military jets, armor plating etc, composites and in particular graphite composites are the material of choice. They offer outstanding stiffness/weight and strength/weight ratios, and do not suffer from mechanical fatigue as badly as do metals. Additionally, they are not susceptable to corrosion. Boeing has just figured out how the make the composite plane in a cost effective manner. In the future all planes will be made primarily of composites, the 787 is just the first out of the gate.

iwok


User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Funny how on the picture, next to the 787 bar, a footnote exists stating that it is 'targeted'. Can't guarantee.

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3376 times:
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Boeing does seem confident... but maint. guarantees have been common with sub-contracted components for a long time on both Boeing and Airbus aircraft. (Engines are a big example, pardon the pun.) So its past time for it to go to the full airframe. This form of guarantee is probabably required before airlines will reduce the mx cost in their models (and thus make the 787 more attractive to potential buyers before entry into service).

Funny how on the picture, next to the 787 bar, a footnote exists stating that it is 'targeted'. Can't guarantee.
Acutally, its typical that early aircraft are pulled at the airframer's expense for verification of the maint. models. It usually takes a few aircraft making it to a "heavy check" milestone before that milestone becomes standard (aerospace engineering is big into "stage gating"). So stating this as a "target" wouldn't surprise anyone familiar with standard entry into service of a new airframe.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

I'm not so sure it is a good idea to make this type of claim. I'm not so sure how it would affect maintenance, would those that work on 787 get lazy because they won't have to do much or have carriers simply hire less crew?

Quoting DfwRevolution (reply 6):
The "Boeing lost touch with the world" mantra is being so exaggerated...


There was this plane a while back being the origin of 787; ever hear of the Sonic Cruiser...? Big grin



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 947 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Fewer maintenance checks, a response to B's confidence and airline caution.

Still to be answered, is precisely what is included in the scheduled maintenance in terms of additional/new tests and test equipment, if any, and projected man hours.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Still to be answered, is precisely what is included in the scheduled maintenance in terms of additional/new tests and test equipment, if any, and projected man hours.

IMO Planesmart hits the nail here. Add skills / training & certification.


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