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Air France Downgrading On False Pretext  
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5710 times:

Since I am in an AF-bashing mood today anyway, I'ld just like to throw in another anecdote from yesterday: I had a confirmed Business Class reservation on CDG-TXL. When I arrived at check-in, there was a huge queue and when it was my turn the official check-in deadline was over by 3 minutes. I argued that the plane was going to be late anyway (which was true), that I wouldn't have any luggage, that there weren't any lines at security, etc - so the check-in agent called the flight manager, and they told me that the reason they could not take was because they could not give me the business class service (i.e. catering). I replied that I didn't care anyway for (their very very very bad) food, I just needed to be on that flight and that I had been on time. They then offered to check me in for Economy class. Fine, I accepted that.

At the gate, I asked again why they had downgraded me despite my confirmed reservation and my being on time. They said it was because they couldn't give me the business class catering because I had been late.

On board in flight I and all the other pax in my cabin were served the EXACT SAME food as in Business Class! The FA confirmed to me that on European flights the catering service in C and Tempo Challenge (full fare economy) were identical.

So why then downgrade me under the pretext of no food available, just to give me the same food behind the curtain????????? I don't care about the food, but I care about the extra space and privacy in C class (which is one of the reasons why I pay C class), and I am pissed off about being taken for an idiot, for being lied to and for being downgraded for no apparent reason.

What can I say, it's AF and their procedures on the ground... I think even a traffic roundabout in Nigeria is better organised than AF on the ground....

Not sure what kind of comments I expect here, just needed to vent it.  Insane

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24947 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5664 times:

Take easyJet  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

GKirk,

you are right:D Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin

But, well, U2 doesn't suit me for a number of other reasons.... But at least U2 doesn't have to deal with those "expecting a lot" kind of pax like me...


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3660 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

Food on a flight from CDG-TXL?

Nice...

At least some airlines still go the extra mile for something


AirPortugal310



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5529 times:

Well, yes, nice, but don't overestimate it: it's a plastic box with a slice of bread that looks quite old and 2 slices of cheese that definitely is old and one little fruit or chocolate tarte. With a little sticker on the entire thing saying that it was prepared 2 days before. And given that the return fare is a whopping 1.100 Euro + tax...  Yeah sure

User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

I'm shocked that an airline like AF provide the same catering as Tempo bearing in mind the huge fare premium one often pays to fly in the business cabin. Are you sure this is the case? Again I repeat, I can't believe an airline like AF offers Economy/Business the same meal.

Ok, the flight is brief, but even BA offers its Club pax a completely separate product on a 45 minute flight to AMS...

It sounds like they overbooked business class and needed an excuse.

I work for BA and I have to admit that we may not always have enough extra Club meals for those last-minute Club pax that were not originally booked on a given flight. In such cases, pax are informed at check-in; they can choose to fly on the next flight, but like Mozart most accept the seat in Club without the Club meal....

In defence of of AF though, this kind of problem could have occurred at any other airline.

It's just an embarrassment for the airline staff, and frustration for the business traveller...


User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5428 times:

DoorsToManual,

AF actually has three classes of service on its European flights: Business (Espace/Affaires), full fare economy (Tempo Challenge), and discount economy (Tempo). In Tempo Challenge, the meal service is the same as in Business. Quite shocking, I agree.

Again, I would have understood if I had been a last minute pax, but I was confirmed on that flight, and they pretended having changed their order with the caterer in those three minutes that I was waiting at check-in. Business was not oversold, there were about 7 seats left.


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

Mozart,

Were you offered compensation for being downgraded?

Did the Purser (Chef de cabine) of the flight offer to write a report?

I am not sure for medium-haul flights, but on long haul flights accepting a passenger after the check-in time (HLE) does sometimes depend on whether we have a meal for him/her!



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

I was not offered compensation.The Purser however did offer to write a report.

On long haul flights I can understand the difference, even on short haul flights I can understand that they must seek the pax explicit agreement that he does give away his right on food/he agrees to be downgraded, but in this case there was no reason to downgrade! The food was there, just (trying to be) served to me a couple of rows back...


User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5335 times:

Hi Mozart

If the situation developed as you state, I can't see why they tried to downgrade you; perhaps you should contact their customer services dept? Having paid a business class fare, I would certainly be seeking some redress if I were you.


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5327 times:

Mozart,

That is one big no-no right there. You should have been offered compensation. You were in line before the closing time, it is not your fault they could not clear the line before then. Anyone in line before then is present for check-in "on-time". I would suggest a firm letter to Frequence Plus. The necessary miles should be credited to your account for the clear lack of organisation and (what is in my opinion) lack of customer service. Why am I not surprised this was at CDG lol.

If I understand the frequency of your travel correctly, I am sure you have the proper addresses to which to write.



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Flpuck6,

I do....  Big grin As a matter of fact, being the plane-nutter in our company, I also oversee the relations and company contracts we sign with airlines. So I usually am in touch with the sales rep for our company.

I usually don't air every little upset I have with my travel, but in the last days it's been so much that it's been frustrating:

- on Tuesday morning I arrived from BEY into CDG at 5h45 am, just to find that my 7am connection to MUC had been cancelled since the night before, but they hadn't told me at BEY. Then the next two flights got cancelled as well.
- on Wednesday morning, i couldn't go to ZRH because of cancelled flights
- and in the afternoon, I then tried going to TXL from CDG (I originally planned to go there from ZRH but since I was still stuck in Paris), and then the above-described story happened.
- and today I arrived back in Paris 1 hour late because they had to change a tyre on the A319 back in TXL.
- Wonder what it'll be like tomorrow when I need to go to MUC for the day. Return will be on LH though...

Most of these things are nobody's fault, weather can be bad, tyres can burst, I have understanding for all of this and never moan, I only get upset when it's badly managed and I am being made loose a lot of time because of that. And then airlines trying to take me for an idiot - just had to post it here.


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

That's the worst thing airlines can do, is take its passengers for idiots. I hate being taken for one, so I don't do it to ours (passengers).

I would not hesitate to include the above details in your communication to F+.

I can only hope this doesn't incite you to fly other companies! LOL  Big grin

A little bit of mess in the AF operations this week ... it seems that a lot of things go hay-wire (get messy) within a span of a few days then for a little while things are ok, then things get messy for 2 days, then go back to "normal". Very interesting how the cycle goes!



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting Flpuck6 (reply 12):
I can only hope this doesn't incite you to fly other companies! LOL


Well, on my France-Germany travel, it actually is a decision I make anew every time around the following factors:

- which airline has the most suitable schedule?
- which aircraft is being used (nothing to do with plane nutter, I simply HATE the CRJs Lufthansa is using on many routes out of Paris)

If I have the choice between an AF Airbus/Boeing and a LH CRJ and times are more or less the same, it's definitely AF. If timings are very different, I decide according to schedule.

Other factors are more "feel good":
- LH is by very very very far the more hassle-free and more reliable option
- AF has by very very very very far the nicer cabin service
So it's a matter of what is more important to me in a given moment, a stress-free experience on the ground, or a stress-free experience on board.

I am a top tier status with both (also with BA), so miles aren't an incentive.

By the way, are you within AF? Where are you located? You sound like an insider, but then why are you in PVD?


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4597 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5117 times:
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Mozart,

You should write a book on your adventures..
As usual,you give half the story...

BEY ? Wasn't there some assassination there, with some form of threat recently ? Airlines are very much security conscious, you know.

Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.

While I sympathize with your trials,I am just beginning to wonder whether your attitude is responsible for the treatment you're being given and whether, as a known "top tier status" holder,you're now paying for all the abuse you've spilt on the ground staff.

Just a thought
Regards.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Pihero,

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
As usual,you give half the story...


Excuse me, which half have I missed?

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
BEY ? Wasn't there some assassination there, with some form of threat recently ? Airlines are very much security conscious, you know.


Yes, indeed, Rafik Hariri, former Prime Minister as well as 15 other people got killed in a bomb blast. What does this tragic event have to do with any of this?

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.


I never blamed AF for having cancelled the flights. All I said is that I had some frustrating travel experiences this week, and I also said that I do not blame bad weather or repair needs on anyone. Those things happen. But I said that I blame AF for their poor information management. On LH, whenever a flight that I am booked on is cancelled, delayed or merely changes its departure gate, I receive an SMS on my mobile sufficiently ahead of time. AF had advertised a similar service with a lot of pomp. I have received notification from them twice: one time was 10 minutes before check-in closure, so I was just arriving at the airport - just to know that the decision had been taken already hours before. Another time, I was called AFTER the scheduled departure time. And then, never again. Also, the LH call centre can give reliable info,AF has troubles doing that. And so on. Read my posts, you will find that I am not one of the stupid people shouting at airline employees when the weather turns bad. They can't help it.

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
While I sympathize with your trials,I am just beginning to wonder whether your attitude is responsible for the treatment you're being given and whether, as a known "top tier status" holder,you're now paying for all the abuse you've spilt on the ground staff.


Which abuse? I don't shout at anyone, as I said. In the case I mentioned at the beginning of this thread I politely asked why they would not accept me. I may insist, but never raise my voice. As a matter of fact, things work a zillion times better here in France when you charme people. You should not infere any behavioural issues from my critical assessment of some of the ground procedures at AF. I know there are some people whose ego gets inflated just because they have a status card in their wallet, but that is not my case. I dislike them as much as you probably do.


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

Quoting Mozart (reply 2):
But, well, U2 doesn't suit me for a number of other reasons.... But at least U2 doesn't have to deal with those "expecting a lot" kind of pax like me...


Say what you will, sarcasm and all, but this is perhaps the biggest reason that LCCs like U2 can be consistently profitable while the legacies can only hope for the best of times to eke out marginal profits.


User currently offlineQm001 From Portugal, joined Mar 2004, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4859 times:

Hi All,

I just returned from SVO with AF traveling SVO-CDG-BLQ. All I can say is that AF was a total disgrace. As a Skyteam Platinum member I was totally horrified. Don't get me wrong, I love AF! They have great connections and normally they are quite competitive on a Cost vs Benefit analysis. Yes they have strikes but what happened to me was truly ridiculous.

Changed routing on a ticket from HEL departure to SVO departure with an authorization from AF in AMS. Arrived at the Ticket counter at SVO to change my ticket and was asked by the lone agent "ARE YOU BLIND?". Quite shocked I asked why. She replied that it said in big black letters non-reroutable. I said yes, I can read, but that as it was a C-class ticket that AF AMS has agreed to the change. She checked in the booking and said that AF AMS had rebooked and make all necessary changes but that if she re-issued she would be responsible. She said that she didn't understand why and AF Fare and AF Flights had been issued on KL paper. She said that as it was KL paper I had to go to KL. I asked if she could go with me to explain. KL was just as helpful, but did give me a printout, supposedly of the Fare Rules, which read in big letters on the top as usual the Fare Basis and fare paid. Of course these did not respond to the fair basis on my ticket. I explained this to them and this is when they replied that this was the only D-Class fare they could find!

Obviously I must look like an idiot as they continued to dig there holes deeper by saying that the Agent had made a mistake issuing an AF fare and flight on KL paper, and that this was the reason they could not change the ticket. I stood there while calling AF in AMS, at which point the AF Agent asked me if I could stand somewhere else, IN CASE another passenger comes!!!

When I got my Agent on the phone she was just as shocked as I was and asked to speak to the AF Agent. I passed on the telephone, and actually heard the AF Agent say, well you know its very busy and this man is not the only passenger in the world. I was the only passenger at the desk and had been now for 40 mins.

After standing there waiting for AF AMS to send a Telex to SVO, she finally said that standing there waiting would not make her change her mind and that my ticket would not be changed "until hell froze over". At this point, admittedly I loved the show, the AF Manager walked in with a Telex in his hand and asked her what the hell was wrong with her, and was she blind, and that clearly I was a loyal passenger and that I paid here salary.

She promptly changed the ticket and without a word processed the change. It took her 2 minutes, and the AF Manager told here she didn't even need an authorization.

This was typical Moscow!!!

Kind regards,

QM 001 (167 Air Malawi)



I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

He he, here's a similar one from the ticket counter: since I wanted to figure which unused electronic tickets I still hold, I went to one of the electronic ticket kiosks (this is at TXL airport this morning) and printed out all the itineraries. I then walked up to the ticket counted and asked them to please identify which of these coupons were already flown and which not (it wasn't clear from the printouts as these only thave the original reservation, but some of them I had changed).

She stared at them and said "I've never seen this in my life" and neither had her colleague. Good start, never seen itinerary receipts.

Then, she looked up the flight of the original booking, and since this didn't bring up anything for the first flight she had tried she simply told me that all these coupons had already been used. She refused to look up by any other method (eg by ticket number or PNR). When I asked her how I could find out which tickets were unused she simply shrugged her shoulders...

Talk of m'enfoutisme...


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4668 times:

Ahhhhh all the ground staff stories! It sounds like uncompetant agents to me ... though trust me, not all agents are uncompetant ... neither are all agents know-it-alls! That does not excuse for the poor attitudes!

Mozart, oui, je suis de la compagnie ... je suis effectivement a PVD ... trouvez l'aeroport international le plus pret  Big grin :P N'hesitez surtout pas a me contacter.



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineMozart From Luxembourg, joined Aug 2003, 2190 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4629 times:

Flpuck6,

of course, you are right, not all agents are incompetent, and attitude isn't always bad. The cabin crew on my "problematic" CDG-TXL was adorable. All in all, AF cabin crew are absolutely adorable in 99% of cases, which is why I actually like AF and find their on board service and the atmosphere that is created by the staff really really pleasant and nice.

As for the saga of cancelled flights: I am writing this early in the morning because I am up and trying to go to Germany, and my flight has been... cancelled. They say it's weather. Whatever. Just before I am getting accused of arrogance or of hauling insults: I am not loosing my temper, I haven't abused anyone, I don't blame anyone. I am just in the mood of sharing a week of experiences flying in and out of Paris.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy No offense meant to anyone.


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4187 times:

Groundstaff usually have no idea of the type of meal served on the airline. We don't get to fly that much!
You were not offered compensation because you were oficially too late, the flight had closed for check-in. Groundstaff is trained to allow passengers go to the gate under the following conditions:
- no guarantee of a meal
- the aircraft doesn't wait for you, it's your own risk trying to make it

Also, the moment the flight closes for check-in seats are given out to waitlist passengers. At that moment noshow passengers (like you!) lose their reservation.
So it's very possible that businessclass was full. So if you accept to being downgraded there's no compensation, it's even a nice gesture of the airline that they're still willing to take you.
They may also force you to take the next flight and make you pay a penalty on your ticket for the change!
Another example: MH doesn't take passengers in a class they don't have a meal for. It gives the impression of poor service to other passengers. They prefer to fly with empty seats and not upgrade if they dont have the meals available.

Quoting Pihero (reply 14):
Wednesday in Paris ? I didn't see many airplanes leaving either CDG or ORY,whatever their colours.Could you have taken LH ?..I think not.

Wednesday CDG was closed for all in/out flights shorter than 2 hours. It affected all AMS operations too.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineAMSSpotter From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 271 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

Quoting Lamedianaranja (reply 21):
You were not offered compensation because you were oficially too late, the flight had closed for check-in


Mozart said he did show up at check-in before their official closing time. AF just didn't manage to clear the line before then.
To me it seems, just like FLpuck6 said in reply 10, that it's not Mozart's fault if AF are unable to clear a line and that Mozart is indeed entitled to get compensation(?)
I am getting confused now...if I show up like 12:20, check-in officially closes 12:30 but there still is a huge line and the airline is unable to clear that line before 12:30. Who is responsible? To me, I would think it's the airline or do the rules differ from country to country?
It's my guess that in Canada or the States one would have definitely been compensated.


User currently offlineFlpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Where I work, if you are in line before check-in closing time, we are responsible for checking you in. It will mean the flight will close out a few minutes late, but we will still accept the passenger.

I wonder if circumstances are different on long haul vs. short haul flights?

Groundstaff usually have no idea of the type of meal served on the airline. We don't get to fly that much!


Well the groundstaff should be more informed. Passengers have questions about their inflight experience before they get on the ground and they should be answered correctly. Inform YOURSELF if you don't know. You will only be enhancing the customer's experience.



Bonjour Chef!
User currently offlineAMSSpotter From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 271 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3655 times:

Flpuck6, thank you for the info!

25 Post contains images Mozart : Flpuck6, wow, you're aiming for "employee of the month" status at AF here! In any case, thanks for the well-informed comments here, and welcome on my
26 Flpuck6 : LOL Mozart ... hardly! I just try to do my best. It's just frustrating when I hear stories like this ... no one is perfect and sh*t happens ... but th
27 Flpuck6 : Oh, I have a friend who is travelling in a group whose flight left BCN about 1h45 late making them miss their connection to Boston (BOS) for the 13h15
28 Doona : Mozart. I have to tell you that I have experienced the exact opposite of what you did. On a flight CPH-AMS I was seated in the Y cabin, but since ther
29 Jobalas : Merci Mozart, hope to see U in my planes...
30 Post contains images Jouy31 : Although I sometimes experience problems with AF, I have also had pleasant surprises, even in TXL  . I was returning to CDG after at a conference las
31 Jouy31 : Actually, the premium on most European routes between Full-fare Y and C is not that much. On a round trip, depending whether you are on a discounted
32 Post contains images Mozart : Jouy31, You read my mind. But this was a topic of another thread on this forum back then, wasn't it? But then, honestly guys, how can you explain it t
33 Mozart : Flpuck6, what is the comptoir HC? Where is it?
34 Pihero : Mozart, No offense had been intended. I was just commenting on your endless "Air France bashing mood" (your words). And , YES ,you seem to be quite co
35 Post contains images Jobalas : Mozart, I'm a cabin crew and yes we are allow to go in the 'poste de pilotage' . Maybe U will be on my flight because i'm work on the AF short/medium
36 Post contains images Jouy31 : Mozart, On this, I fully agree with you. I could not find better words to say how great AF' s cabin crew are.
37 Pihero : Have you finished with self congratulations, Jouy an Jobalas ? If not,let me join the club. Adieu !
38 Flpuck6 : Mozart, The "comptoir HC" are the counters for Elite fliers, i.e. First and Business Class lines. Usually no lines. I am not too familiar with Termina
39 Mozart : Pihero, sorry if I seem one-sided, I'll go back to the other thread (I guess you mean the snow one) to check and answer... As for my "AF bashing mood"
40 Pihero : Mozart, Looking at the stats I gave a link to on the other thread,I seem to miss the efficiency and reliability of LHR compared to CDG. Hey ! would yo
41 Addi375 : I work for AF and get treated horribly when I travel GP from CDG. Most of those people are ADP and not acutally AF and they could give a damn.
42 Hardiwv : At in SK, which also operates in three classes, food in economy flex and business is differente. Btw, economy class only paid food. Just for your inf
43 PVD757 : I used to work for AA(I know, big deal) and when we had something like this, we had to refund the difference in ticket prices. You should at least com
44 Pat : Interesting thread indeed ... Sounds like Mozart has had a big slice of the "bad travel experiences" cake in a few days". A few comments though : 1/ I
45 Jouy31 : In 2D, the elite or haute contribution counters are not grouped as they are, for instance in 2C or 2E. They are flight specific, which means that cou
46 Flpuck6 : They should still be able to clear the lines by the latest check-in time (HLE) though, no!? And the Elite passenger should not be waiting more than 3
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