Manu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 385 posts, RR: 8 Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4946 times:
Given Switzerland isn't a EU member, do aircraft avoid Swiss airspace even if the route would pass over swiss territory? I was in Zermatt, Switzerland the beginning of this month and to the East of the Matterhorn (the iconic toblerone-shaped mountain) there was constant traffic East of the Matterhorn but none West of it, overtop of Zermatt. At one point I counted 8 different active contrails either heading north or south to the East. For those without knowledge of this area, this is generally where the French/Italian/Swiss borders meet.
In addition, I flew from EMA to VCE on EasyJet and also flew this route as I have some beautiful photos of the Matterhorn and Zermatt from my western-facing window. It was breathtaking, but I assume A.net won't approve the pic given I have no part of the aircraft in it.
I theorized that Switzerland charges to use ATC, passing or not, and we avoided going in to save costs. Anyone have any facts to back my theory?
Here's a photos from the database with a view of the area:
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2207 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4437 times:
Swiss is a small country, and most of it's land mass is covered by the alps. Swiss has a certain amount of their airspace limited for airforce use. A fighter jet crosses the country from east to west in 15 minutes and blocks a lot of the airpsace for commercial airplanes. Germany sends a lot of its jet pilots over the north sea and to Goose Bay in northern Canada for example Switzerland hasn't that privilege. They only use their own airspace.
USAFHummer From United States, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 60 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4282 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting Manu (reply 0):
In addition, I flew from EMA to VCE on EasyJet and also flew this route as I have some beautiful photos of the Matterhorn and Zermatt from my western-facing window. It was breathtaking, but I assume A.net won't approve the pic given I have no part of the aircraft in it.
Is this picture available online somewheres? I'd really like to take a look at it if that's possible at all!
Thanks,
Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
Scxmechanic From United States, joined Dec 1999, 520 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4249 times:
I believe several countries will not allow US Military aircraft to overfly their airspace as they want to "appear" neutral.
For example several years back at my old airline we did a few military trips out of Tazar Hungary. We ferried over from KMSP-EINN-LHTA and were able to overfly Austrian airspace but on the outbound leg we had a "Reach" callsign and had to be routed up over Czech airspace and on to Shannon for fuel.
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 11066 posts, RR: 18 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4072 times:
Quoting Scxmechanic (reply 4): I believe several countries will not allow US Military aircraft to overfly their airspace as they want to "appear" neutral.
That is true. In the case of Switzerland they do not allow any foreign military traffic to pass thru their airspace. For Austria they do allow US military traffic, however it is on a limited basis and requires prior coordination.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Manu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 385 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3472 times:
I've posted four of my photos from this trip, one on the ground in Gornergrat (by Zermatt) and another three from the flight I was on to Venice. Here is the one containing the Matterhorn:
If it had any part of the aircraft in the pictures I'd post them here. We had 2A and B during this flight on the 737, so it was a great view unobstructed by anything on the aircraft.
For the 77cdn it cost me to fly from EMA to VCE it was worth ten times that amount to be glued to the window for the last 30 minutes, as the photos show you. I live about an hour away from Toronto, not exactly hill country. So any chance I have, I really enjoy it.
NumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 10 Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2720 times:
Quoting 3201 (reply 9): > In the case of Switzerland they do not allow any foreign military traffic to pass thru their airspace.
Others might want to apply that same policy to them...
That's a totally different story, 3201 - it's another policy because the Swiss Air Force flew sort of Air Show over a big city.
Quoting Laxintl (reply 5): Quoting Scxmechanic (reply 4):
I believe several countries will not allow US Military aircraft to overfly their airspace as they want to "appear" neutral.
That is true. In the case of Switzerland they do not allow any foreign military traffic to pass thru their airspace. For Austria they do allow US military traffic, however it is on a limited basis and requires prior coordination.
Why should allow Switzerland other military traffic using their airspace? It's THEIR country and they want to avoid that other contries want to use their air space too (such as: the xxx nation is allowed, so why not we?)
Snoopy From Japan, joined Oct 2001, 367 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2452 times:
I think you will find that the restrictions on foreign military flights over Switzerland only apply to flights that would be against the Swiss policy of strict neutrality. Flights to and from combat zones, unless of a humanitarian nature, are banned unless there is a prior agreement.
Flights through Swiss airspace were allowed during the first Gulf War because there was a UN Mandate. As the second Gulf War was not condoned by the United Nations, overflights to and from the combat zone were not allowed. I don't really think this is such a big deal. Switzerland has been neutral since Napoleonic times, so it's not as though it's something new!
It also might interest you to know that French military aircraft and Italian military aircraft regularly encroach on Swiss airspace by a few kilometers for a short period of time...but nobody makes a big deal out of it.
RootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4112 posts, RR: 50 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1669 times:
Quoting JoFMO (reply 2): Swiss is a small country, and most of it's land mass is covered by the alps. Swiss has a certain amount of their airspace limited for airforce use.
I never knew the country where I lived was called Swiss. Just thought it was the airline called like that and the name of the people from this country. Gosh ! I've learned something new today
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1326 times:
Hi guys
Actually, Switzerland is one of the most used air space zone (or whatever you call it) in Europe, because, it's right in the center. The reason why you wouldn't find too many contrails everywhere is because a huge amount (I think it's about 85%, but I'm not sure, is reserved for the Swiss-Air Force.
There are some cool pics of where planes fly through, and how many, but I don't know if they are available online. I suggest that you try
http://www.skyguide.ch
and search for "maps". Lots of interesting maps about where planes are allowed to fly, how much is reserved for the military and how much airspace not over Switzerland itself is controlled by Skyguide.
Greetz
Stoney
[Edited 2005-02-27 13:13:18]
[Edited 2005-02-27 13:15:27]
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
Leskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 83 Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1286 times:
Quoting Snoopy (reply 11): Flights through Swiss airspace were allowed during the first Gulf War because there was a UN Mandate. As the second Gulf War was not condoned by the United Nations, overflights to and from the combat zone were not allowed. I don't really think this is such a big deal. Switzerland has been neutral since Napoleonic times, so it's not as though it's something new!
The same type of law is in effect in Austria - for land and air based transports.
Other nation's military transports are only permitted on Austrian territory if they are based on a UN Resolution - if not, no permission is given.
Jcavinato From United States, joined Jan 2005, 456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1223 times:
I flew Philadelphia-Rome on US a lot. About a half the time I can see the Zermatt/Matterhorn on this trip. It would be about 20 miles to the east. The headings about there would be about south south east and the opposite.
Manu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 385 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 836 times:
Quoting USAFHummer (reply 8): Thanks very much Manu, those are great shots!
Thanks Greg. I'd upload them here, but as I said they're missing an aviation theme.
On the same topic, I found Airliners magazine this month in the article "The Tale of a Princess and two Mountains" mentions a waypoint called BANKO, located a few miles from the summit of Mont Blanc and acts as a busy intersection of the North-South European Airways A1, B4 and B37.
BANKO from what I can determine is almost due south of Zermatt and the Matterhorn, which would mean most NS traffic would slip right by. Also given that Zermatt has many clear days each year means many can see the Matterhorn frequently.
Combined with the info provided about the Swiss Airforce's restricted airspace, I imagine there are few airways through Switzerland.
The Skyguide link provided by Stoney helped me understand who is controlling the airspace, but I was unable to find any good maps on the website.
As always, the replies and knowledge on A.net is excellent!
Cheers,
Manu.
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 198 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 649 times:
I found a link to a clip of what happens in Swiss Airspace during 24 hours: It's pretty small, so no good Quality, but anyway, it kind of answers your questions
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