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9E/NW Airlink Crash Update From 10/14/04  
User currently offlineNWCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8185 times:

This is an interesting article from KSTP here in Minneapolis. Seems like the media is once again exaggerating the circumstances.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S6577.html?cat=1

They act as if the crash all happened within a few seconds of time. Furthermore, they had not cited any thing from the NTSB or FAA regarding the tapes that they obtained. Seems to me as if KSTP wants the reader to have the impression that the pilots at 9E/Airlink are wreckless.


The New American is arriving.
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2693 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8155 times:

Here's the same link, clickable:
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S6577.html?cat=1

I wouldn't trust the media on this, as usual. I would pay attention to the NTSB report and only that, and even question what's in it as well.

As usual, when the media writes something like this I have to wonder just how inaccurate or biased their information is in other topics!

Nick


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

You have good reason to distrust the media. For example, the article claims that the airline hasn't heard the tapes. Odds are, a representative of the airline was present when they were first played. That's common in these accident investigations. FAA was there, NTSB was there, union was there, airframe maker was there, engine maker was there, so was the company. The first analysis of the recorders showed that both engines were out in a very short period of time, when they were still well above FL300. But the pilot didn't mention it until they realized they had no choice but to land.

OTOH, the controller, who works with these aircraft daily, made note of how high they were, because it was out of the ordinary. The poor FO was green, had only been around for a few months. Probably knew he shouldn't be at FL41, but didn't say anything. "Just having some fun"? You don't risk your life and the life of a co-worker just for some fun.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots....


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7991 times:

>>>Controller: "He doesn't like 41. I don't think he has enough gas up there he's so slow."

What the heck does -that- mean?

It's amazing that the media can take the earlier "fun" comment out of context like they did...


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7981 times:

It means that the controller knew he was up too high, and was near a stall because of the altitude, which is what happened. "Having some fun" wasn't taken out of context. The captain knew he was near the limits of the aircraft, and took the risk. Shame that "having some fun" was more important than getting home to his pregnant wife and two young kids. Thank goodness there was nobody else on board!

User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7973 times:

What does the controller know of the "gas" situation? What did fuel have to do with anything?

User currently offlineNWCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 690 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7973 times:

It is good to see that others here agree with me. The Minnesota media especially treats NW like garbage. For an airline that brings so much economic benefit to our homestate, it think it is crazy how they are portrayed. NW is always taken out of context, always caught "being rude the poor little customer", screwing that state, on and on....

OPNLguy, I have no idea what that means either. Maybe that the fuel burn was too high at FL410, but how the hell would the controller know the fuel situation onboard the a/c.



The New American is arriving.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7951 times:

>>>OPNLguy, I have no idea what that means either. Maybe that the fuel burn was too high at FL410, but how the hell would the controller know the fuel situation onboard the a/c.

My point exactly... Burn would have actually been less (the higher you go).. The quote attributed to the controller makes it seem like he thought it would vapor lock or something.. (as if...)

Think I'll turn off the telly and wait for something more official from FAA/NTSB...

[Edited 2005-02-27 07:52:49]

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7945 times:

"GAS" was a generic term for "forward motion", had nothing to do w/ fuel on board. controller would've been better to say "he's running outta steam". Controller could see that the plane was slowing greatly on his scope, due to the compressor stalls that were about to happen. The preliminary report I've seen (I'm not armchairing it) shows that BOTH engines failed in rapid sucession. No pilot ever wants to even think about admitting the pilot made an error, but in this case "having a little fun" was the wrong thing to do. So far, it sure does look like they shoulda stayed away from FL410.

BTW, I'm running out of gas myself... It's just late, don't take it literally!  Big grin

[Edited 2005-02-27 08:03:06]

User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7883 times:

"Having a little fun" is clearly out of context. Having a little fun is the same as "enjoying the view up here." The pilot was speaking to fill air on the frequency.

As to people saying it was such a bad decision to fly at FL410. Want to tell me what the service ceiling for their CRJ was?

-TJ


User currently offlineSunking737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2040 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7816 times:

Remember it is TV sweeps time KSTP is in last place for the news here in MSP.


Just an MSPAVGEEK
User currently onlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3769 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

At FL410 the A/C does burn less fuel, but the air is thinner and more thrust is needed to keep speed up, even if the engine uses less fuel. (The controller probably would have had some idea of the fuuel situation by the way... but that's not the issue here.)
The indicated airspeed is not the same as real airspeed, and at FL410 the indicated airspeed has to be higher than, say, FL320.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers.
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineCactus739 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2444 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7729 times:

No disrespect to those that died in this accident... but...

Is it me or did that report read like dialouge from a really bad accident movie on TV?



You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7663 times:

I have been and FL41000 numerous times in the CRJ as a pax with me personally knowing the captain on a lot of runs.

User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7644 times:

Doona...indicated airspeed would be less the higher you go up because the air is less dense. Remember indicated airspeed comes from the pitot tube which measures ram air pressure.

This was a tragic accident indeed. I agree that the media is purposely taking the pilot's statement about having a litttle fun out of context. They usually do things like that or get their facts completely wrong.

It is not uncommon for jets to fly at FL410...I have been on 757's on several occasions where we got up that high. I know the CRJ is an exception.
However, the damn thing is certified to 410....period. Most of them simply can't get there with a full pax load and fuel, and controllers know that. That is why the controller made that remark.



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7537 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Even if they were flying at 410, the CRJ was certafied for it, well, first off two things, controllers have to let them go to 410, and second, the 410 is a certification that allows more, the plane should be able to go higher, but 410 is max safe alt. Well not so safe anymore.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4975 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7534 times:

At that altitude they probably got into "coffin corner" where the dynamics of speed are such that stall limit speed approaches cruise speed. A NW 727 encountered this phenomina over upstate New York some time ago. It was a fatal mistake for them too.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineGnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7167 times:

That has got to be one of the worst pieces of journalism I've ever encountered. None of the facts are attributed, it's conclusory, sensationalistic, and completely non-credible. It's typical of the shoddy work of many local TV news stations.

I'd add that I don't understand the banter about the dangers of flying at FL410. Do we even know yet what specifically caused the double-flameout? After all, it's well established that the CR2 is certified to FL410.

[Edited 2005-02-27 23:16:16]

User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7055 times:

The article makes the term "fun" look really bad for the pilots. Almost like they were screwing around and caused the failures. I'm sure that they didn't do anything out of the norm. A lot of guys on the radio like to have fun and joke around. The dumb tv station makes them look bad.
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineCRJ200Mechanic From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 204 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6796 times:

I worked on the airplane 6 days before it went down. I knew both pilots. Regardless of pilot error, they were both good pilots and good men. The report is some of the poorest journalism I have ever read. They lost both engines nearly at the same time.


Always remember the responsibilies you hold with an A&P license
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6711 times:

If the plane was certified to FL410, and that was how high the pilots were, I don't see the problem. Just because they mentioned having fun, they are demonized by the media for being incompetent. It is disgusting. It just shows how the media probably twists everything else also, and we just can't pick it up.

BTW Do you think they might re-certify the CRJ to a lower altitude now after the incident?

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineTCFC424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6362 times:

I just don't see how the pilots are specifically at fault for this crash. If the a/c is certified to FL410, and that is where they were flying, that is within normal operations and the double engine failure should not have happened. Instead of criticizing the pilots for their actions, the news should be criticizing the a/c manufacturer and the certification agency for making FL410 a "safe" operating range. Sure, the pilots said they were having a little fun because normally, with pax the CRJ200 cannot attain that altitude. It was out of the ordinary to be able to climb that high and they were enjoying it. Unfortunately the story did not have a happy ending. I hope like hell that the aircraft certification is amended to reflect a lower altitude for safe operations to prevent tragedies like this from occurring in the future.

God bless the families.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6292 times:

>>>Instead of criticizing the pilots for their actions, the news should be criticizing the a/c manufacturer and the certification agency for making FL410 a "safe" operating range.


It seems a little disingenuous for folks (in general) to blast the media for jumping to conclusions, and then folks coming up with other conclusions that the media should act upon...

Wouldn't it be better if -everyone- cooled their jets (no pun intended) until the investigation was over and the reported issued?  Big grin

As far as KTSP's spin/coverage on the story, it STINKS.


User currently offlineCaptTu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

The problem is that everyone seems to be focusing on the wrong thing...

To me... the real issue was why neither engine could be started again.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3905 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

Perhaps we ought to wait to hear the final report before we exonerate the pilots, bombardier and Pinnacle. The fact is that there is FAR more information regarding this accident than any news organization has right now. Without that, no story will be accurate. The only accurate story is the one that played out that night and that can be derived from the FDR and CVR.

My point is that I think some are being too quick to relieve the pilots from responsibility and color the media bad. Enough said.



AZJ


25 Andrewuber : Can you post a link or some data on the 727 incident you're talking about? I'm curious to see it. Thanks
26 Arrow : "To me... the real issue was why neither engine could be started again." That's exactly what puzzles me. I would have thought restart procedures, once
27 KYIPpilot : That's exactly what puzzles me. I would have thought restart procedures, once the aircraft was down in some thicker air, would have got at least one o
28 Av8rPHX : Most airlines flying the CRJ have told their pilots now that their max ceiling is FL370.
29 Burnsie28 : Quoting Type-Rated (reply 16): At that altitude they probably got into "coffin corner" where the dynamics of speed are such that stall limit speed app
30 Post contains links and images OPNLguy : >>>>>>Can you post a link or some data on the 727 incident you're talking about? I'm curious to see it. Thanks >>>Umm yeah, because if you know someth
31 Burnsie28 : Wierd, because the NTSB own website doesnt even have the incident on it. Then when completing a search on the aircraft tail number listed in that PDF,
32 Post contains images OPNLguy : >>>Makes me think that PDF is a bunch a BS If it's a fake, it would seem an elaborate one, but for what purpose? Guess ERAU fell for the "ploy"... >>>
33 Burnsie28 : I searched everything, and again, when searching that exact registration number, the only thing that came up was a Incident in Atlanta for that EXACT
34 OPNLguy : >>>the only thing that came up was a Incident in Atlanta for that EXACT aircraft in 1984 10 years after this supposidly happened. Well, based upon the
35 Qwerty : Take decision to be at FL41 off the table. Now, shouldn't altitude have been their friend? If pilot error is involved, isn't it in not realizing the m
36 Gnomon : Qwerty -- I absolutely agree with you. I don't want to slide down the slippery slope of speculation, but I too wonder why, with so much altitude to pl
37 Arrow : "I too wonder why, with so much altitude to play with, the situation ended so tragically." That's one of my concerns, too. A couple of out of gas inci
38 Alias1024 : The NW 727 accident is real, but it had nothing to do with coffin corner. A 727 isn't going to get into coffin corner and stall 24,800 ft. The crew fa
39 Qwerty : Depends on alot, but ... That really doesn't matter as much as the type and being a regional jet, just about any airfield could handle her. Emergency
40 LeanOfPeak : You don't find the 727 crash at the NTSB because the PDF at the Embry-Riddle site has a typo in it. Try an NTSB search for N274US. As for the CRJ acci
41 Azjubilee : Knowing too much is painful whilst reading thread. AZJ
42 Qwerty : By all means, you can go ahead. I find it perfectly fine to talk about it. And you point is what? You think you are either 1) a skygod or 2) an insid
43 LeanOfPeak : Qwerty, that plea was not addressed to you. I don't have a problem with reasonable discussion, theorizing, and guess-work. That was addressed to those
44 KYIPpilot : Again, I heard that they stalled and were inverted for the first part of their descent. I remember that one of the initial reports said that for a wh
45 CRJ200Mechanic : There were only 2 on board. The pilot and the copilot and I knew them both. They did everything they could to keep that plane in the air.
46 OPNLguy : >>>>>>Quoting OPNLguy (reply 30): The NWA accident (with only 3 flightcrew aboard >>>There were only 2 on board. The pilot and the copilot and I knew
47 Qwerty : Exactly. I'm starting to see the cascade, but it still is odd, odd, odd. Sorry I must've missed this is some other threads. How the heck did they (al
48 CRJ200Mechanic : My bad. I guess I misunderstood your post. I got confused with the jumping back and forth between the CRJ accident and 727 accident. My apologies
49 OPNLguy : Not a prob; sorry for the loss of your friends. I went through a similar situation at a former employer, and know what it's like...
50 CRJ200Mechanic : I appreciate it. I always feared it would happen someday in my career. I was just hoping that it wouldn't.
51 Nwafflyer : There is still constant media reporting on the 'fun'. I'm a little confused about fl41 for the CRJ though. If that was the acceptable ceiling, why wou
52 ThePinnacleKid : ATC transcripts are public documents because they are publicly transmitted... so unfortunately, you can get transcripts on crashes.... even before th
53 OPNLguy : >>>There is still constant media reporting on the 'fun'. I'm a little confused about fl41 for the CRJ though. If that was the acceptable ceiling, why
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